Up-Rating The Hard Way

[Minxy]

I don’t know were I am with this but. If I have asked this before just shoot me.
I have up rated my van and if I send my V5 to DVLA it will not be back in time to go to Spain for April,so I’m going to stick my new VIN plate next to my old one and take the DESIGN WEIGHT CERTIFICATE and the engineer appraisal report also I will put the correct weight in pat 7 and sign part 8 on my old V5 and keep my head down.

I'm afraid you can stick your sticker wherever you want but until you tell the DVLA you won't be 'legal' at that higher weight. However all is not lost, if you don't get your V5C back in time you can ask for a temporary one by completing a V379 form which you email them and then they email you the temporary reg certificate - this is what we had to do when we uprated our previous Globecar.

 

[Rds559]

Thank you I’ll look into that now

 

[Rds559]

I'm afraid you can stick your sticker wherever you want but until you tell the DVLA you won't be 'legal' at that higher weight. However all is not lost, if you don't get your V5C back in time you can ask for a temporary one by completing a V379 form which you email them and then they email you the temporary reg certificate - this is what we had to do when we uprated our previous Globecar.

 

[Rds559]

I'm afraid you can stick your sticker wherever you want but until you tell the DVLA you won't be 'legal' at that higher weight. However all is not lost, if you don't get your V5C back in time you can ask for a temporary one by completing a V379 form which you email them and then they email you the temporary reg certificate - this is what we had to do when we uprated our previous Globecar.

Will this do me in Europe

 

[gus-lopez]

I still say that unless you're driving with a good proportion of your additional payload allowance distributed in your front footwells and on you and your passenger's laps the back axle will be overloaded anyway.

Which is why a C class is better as you can load up the overcab to get weight on the front axle.

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[Rds559]

But if it’s over 3500kg it doesn’t matter were you put it

 

[Deneb]

Which is why a C class is better as you can load up the overcab to get weight on the front axle.

But still doesn't alter the fact that if the MPW is uprated to the exact sum of the permitted axle weights the full MPW is in practice unusable. The only way to rectify that would be to weigh the van loaded to its new MPW, establish the amount by which its axles are overweight (at least one will be) and take additional steps to uprate one or both axle weights to restore the safety margin that previously existed.

 

[gus-lopez]

establish the amount by which its axles are overweight (at least one will be)

Why would it be?

 

[Minxy]

Will this do me in Europe

Yes, that's why we needed it as we were off abroad.

 

[Minxy]

There is a reason why the sum of axle weights always exceeds the permitted gross weight of the vehicle. Unless you have the facility to load your vehicle whilst on a weighbridge and the time to keep redistributing the contents including you and your passengers to obtain the exactly optimum load distribution (which may be impossible to achieve anyway due to the way that the vehicle has been built, particularly a MH conversion) you are never going to achieve an exact balance between the weights on individual axles and the maximum vehicle weight.

Whilst I understand your comments in the 'real world' it is unlikely that anyone would really want to load right up to their individual axle weights and/or MAM on a regular basis, if they do then they need their bumps felt IMV.

I don't know how much that cost you, but it was a totally impractical exercise under real driving conditions and dare I say a complete waste of money. When loaded to maximum permissible weight, you are 99.9999999% likely to be exceeding one or other of the permitted axle weights and possibly also the load rating of the tyres.

Just because they have the extra capacity doesn't mean they'll use it all, it will still give them a good margin over what they had originally and make the MH usable and you can be pretty sure that someone who has gone down the route of uprating is well aware of the limitations and legal implications of their being overweight and will check their weights accordingly to ensure they are legal and safe. Its those people who never give it a thought, or just bury their heads in the sand knowing that they are more than likely overweight, that are the ones who are total idiots IMV. Paying for uprating is therefore not a waste of money.

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[Minxy]

But still doesn't alter the fact that if the MPW is uprated to the exact sum of the permitted axle weights the full MPW is in practice unusable. The only way to rectify that would be to weigh the van loaded to its new MPW, establish the amount by which its axles are overweight (at least one will be) and take additional steps to uprate one or both axle weights to restore the safety margin that previously existed.

It will still be safe at the MAM weight as the brakes, suspension etc will already have a safety margin built in to allow for the maximum capacity on EACH axle anyway. In fact in some cases it would be better to have both axles at, or near, max capacity rather than the rear one at capacity and the front one well below ... this is when you start to get wheel spin etc which can be dangerous.

 

[Deneb]

Why would it be?

If the MPW is exactly equal to the sum of the axle weights, it will be virtually impossible other than in laboratory conditions to load the vehicle in such a way that the weight of the vehicle and load is transmitted through each axle in the exact proportions to ensure that the axles are also exactly at their maximum permissible weights. There is no margin for load distribution, so if the vehicle is laden to its MPW and the load is not borne to the exact maximum weight allowed on any one axle, it is surely obviously that any under loading of that axle must result in an overladen condition of the other axle.

That is why manufacturer's design weights always allow for the sum of the axle weights to exceed the maximum permissible vehicle weight by a safe margin.

Even if the driver managed to distribute the load exactly, such that the exact maximum permitted load on both axles was achieved, as soon as the vehicle is driven, forces acting on it and movement of loads such as fluids in tanks will constantly be altering the weight distribution with no margin for the axles to accommodate the additional weight imposed.

Note that I'm not necessarily talking about unsafe loads being borne by the axles, but almost certainly exceeding the legal limits. Having said that a 10 per cent excess on any one axle is deemed to be dangerous to the extent that it merits prohibition of the vehicle under UK enforcement criteria.

Anyone professing to certify the up-plating of a vehicle to that condition without making the limitations of the exercise plain to the customer (which are that it is in reality impossible to utilise the full additional gross weight without risking an almost certain illegal excess of at least one axle weight) is at best being very economical with the truth.

 

[Minxy]

If the MPW is exactly equal to the sum of the axle weights, it will be virtually impossible other than in laboratory conditions to load the vehicle in such a way that the weight of the vehicle and load is transmitted through each axle in the exact proportions to ensure that the axles are also exactly at their maximum permissible weights. There is no margin for load distribution, so if the vehicle is laden to its MPW and the load is not borne to the exact maximum weight allowed on any one axle, it is surely obviously that any under loading of that axle must result in an overladen condition of the other axle.

That is why manufacturer's design weights always allow for the sum of the axle weights to exceed the maximum permissible vehicle weight by a safe margin.

Even if the driver managed to distribute the load exactly, such that the exact maximum permitted load on both axles was achieved, as soon as the vehicle is driven, forces acting on it and movement of loads such as fluids in tanks will constantly be altering the weight distribution with no margin for the axles to accommodate the additional weight imposed.

Note that I'm not necessarily talking about unsafe loads being borne by the axles, but almost certainly exceeding the legal limits. Having said that a 10 per cent excess on any one axle is deemed to be dangerous to the extent that it merits prohibition of the vehicle under UK enforcement criteria.

Anyone professing to certify the up-plating of a vehicle to that condition without making the limitations of the exercise plain to the customer (which are that it is in reality impossible to utilise the full additional gross weight without risking an almost certain illegal excess of at least one axle weight) is at best being very economical with the truth.

Perhaps you would like to ask SVTech about all of this as they also allow vehicles to be uprated to their axle maximums and they've been doing it for yonks ...

 

[Deneb]

Perhaps you would like to ask SVTech about all of this as they also allow vehicles to be uprated to their axle maximums and they've been doing it for yonks ...

I'm not going to keep going on about this. I've said enough, but despite what you said above I have the impression from @Rds559 's comments that he really doesn't understand either the limitations or legal implications of what he has acquired, since he described it as 350kg more wine!

There is nothing illegal in up-plating to the sum of the axle weight and obviously the DVLA will accept it, and if the companies or individuals facilitating it are completely transparent as to the limitations with the customers it's not an issue technically.

As someone who spent a considerable number of years enforcement weighing vehicles of varying types and sizes, had training in numerous vehicle construction and use related matters including safe transportation of loads and have given relevant expert evidence in many court cases including trials concerning fatal and serious collisions I can only say that many people other than me seemed to agree that I have a fairly good idea of what I'm talking about.

It might surprise you how easy it is to overload the rear axle of most standard 3500kg vans even though laden below their MPW if the load is just put in the wrong place. The additional complication with a MH is that options for distribution of loads are restricted by the internal fixtures and fittings, which are themselves of a not insignificant weight and of course not always optimally distributed throughout the vehicle platform.

Anyway, I'm done

 

[Minxy]

I'm not going to keep going on about this. I've said enough, but despite what you said above I have the impression from @Rds559 's comments that he really doesn't understand either the limitations or legal implications of what he has acquired, since he described it as 350kg more wine!

Really? You are SERIOUSLY worrying because he joking said he could carry 350kg more wine! You do realise this is a funster/fun forum don't you? He'd never be able to get it in his MH in the first place, not without drinking half of it first!

[quote[As someone who spent a considerable number of years enforcement weighing vehicles of varying types and sizes, had training in numerous vehicle construction and use related matters including safe transportation of loads and have given relevant expert evidence in many court cases including trials concerning fatal and serious collisions I can only say that many people other than me seemed to agree that I have a fairly good idea of what I'm talking about.[/quote]
I don't doubt for one minute that you know about it all as that comes across in your posts.

It might surprise you how easy it is to overload the rear axle of most standard 3500kg vans even though laden below their MPW if the load is just put in the wrong place. The additional complication with a MH is that options for distribution of loads are restricted by the internal fixtures and fittings, which are themselves of a not insignificant weight and of course not always optimally distributed throughout the vehicle platform.

Not surprised at all - I've seen it with my own eyes when looking at some people's MHs but I would wager that the vast majority of these these have been owned by those who haven't a clue anyway about 'payload' and just chuck stuff in they want to take and never ever bother to weight their vehicles. At least those who have bothered to go down the weighing and uprating route know of the limitations and can ensure they are safely loaded. I've had motorhomes/campers since 1996 I am well aware of weight/loading/payload etc implications hence my looking into it in more detail when I wanted to uprate my own.

Anyway, I'm done

Awe shucks, just when it was getting fun!

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[olley]

I'm not going to keep going on about this.
Anyway, I'm done

Ever feel like your banging your head against a brick wall?

 

[Minxy]

Ever feel like your banging your head against a brick wall?

Would that require a 'risk analysis' to be done first though?

 

[JockandRita]

Out of interest how do you know the chassis and the braking system is capable of taking the extra ton payload?

Just catching up, and seen your post.

1. The suspension upgrade permitted the Fiat front axle to be raised from 1750Kgs to 2000Kgs, having had an EU Type Approved modification carried out.

2. Both rear ALKO axles are already plated at 1750 Kgs, however, the converter (Hymer) chose to plate the vehicle at 1500Kgs per axle, including the front, ie, 3 x 1500Kgs = 4500Kgs.

The original axle ALKO/Fiat plating, along with the suspension upgrade permit the GVW uprate to 5500Kgs.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Rds559]

I'm afraid you can stick your sticker wherever you want but until you tell the DVLA you won't be 'legal' at that higher weight. However all is not lost, if you don't get your V5C back in time you can ask for a temporary one by completing a V379 form which you email them and then they email you the temporary reg certificate - this is what we had to do when we uprated our previous Globecar.

Just phoned DVLA no more V379 for temporary V5

 

[Minxy]

Just phoned DVLA no more V379 for temporary V5

B*gger ... oh well, worth a try.

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[Rds559]

Yes thank you

 

[Ninjabob]

I have the usual V5 returned with the Revenue Weight @ 4090kgs gross and the usual (reading other people here's experiences) incorrect Max Permissable mass at 3850kgs. Anyone know of a telephone number for a contact at DVLA who might be able to sort this out?

 

[Rds559]

03007906801. or 08456470681 this one cost more per minute

 

[Feltwell]

if they do then they need their bumps felt IMV.

No no no, definitely not acceptable, look at all the people that have got in trouble for that in recent times, feeling bumps of any variety is definitely unacceptable. Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey...…….