Up-Rating The Hard Way

[Blue Knight]

We've just finished using JRC and it took 7-days and £180 to receive my new plate - all details correct.

I saved £180 by using JRC so I'll use that massive saving over SVTech to buy a huge supply of red wine in Spain one day. .......

 

[Rds559]

I used JR sent all what he wanted on Sunday ready by Thursday back to me last Monday £ 180

 

[Rds559]

If I send my V5 off DVLA I will not get it back in time to go to Spain, so I am going to stick my new VIN plate next to the old one, take the DESIGN WEIGHT CERTIFICATE And the engineers appraisal report with us.
I will put the new weight in part 7 and sign part 8 of the old V5 and off we go and I’ll just go steady.
I have informed my insurance.
I know you all think I’m stupid.

 

[Youlostoo]

I have been watching the JR threads and the comments from a couple of Funsters with interest, as there would be adverse implications on braking and handling. I believe that he is basing the logic of his uprates on stress calculation only and that he has not undertaken any form of dynamic testing to prove brake compliance at the higher weights.
As brake testing of a vehicle to Reg. 13 directive with ABS tests, can cost in excess of £15000+VAT, you can quickly see why he’s able to offer his uprating service at such a reduced cost.
This testing is a requirement by DVSA and should be contained within a “model report” document logged with DVSA.
Ultimately it comes to show me that JR is offering an uprate service to which he has neither the right knowledge or experience and that he has not undertaken the “appropriate testing” in order to sign-off on.
The worry is that anyone having had an uprate by him will find that he has no supporting documentation to backup the GVW increase.
Interestingly I was offered an update by JR to the sum of my axle weights, however I was advised by SV that their tests had proved that the brake retardation would not meet legal requirements at that weight. He might be a nice bloke, but
ask JR the following questions, as I did and he didn't answer and got quite angry I dared question his advice.

1. What brake testing he has carried out as this, you are advised by both DVSA and SvTech, is a legal requirement. No response.
2. That you have been advised that stress calculations alone are not considered acceptable for the entire job of uprating a vehicle. No response.
3. So much as he is having his applications accept by DVLA, this does not mean he is meeting his legal obligation to ensure the work he is undertaking is legally correct. No response
4. Does he carry liability insurance to cover the work offered (SV do), should a vehicle be involved in an incident where the evidence of any testing he has carried out will be called upon. No response.
5. Could he supply you with a copy of his test reports to show the uprate approval. No response.
If you have all the facts you can make up your mind. Cheapest isn't always best.

 

[Hettie's Crew]

JR is offering an uprate service to which he has neither the right knowledge or experience and that he has not undertaken the “appropriate testing” in order to sign-off on.

My thoughts too, well said.

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[Rds559]

The Bailey 75-2 comes out of Bailey at 3850kg and is down rated to 3500kg so you can drive it on your car license, to put it back up to 3850kg it is just paperwork no test need and you can ask Sv tech JR

 

[bellabee]

My thoughts too, well said.

Our thoughts, too. Fortunately, we had done our homework, prior to up-rating and knew what was possible ie 3500 up-rated to 3850 without modifications.
I think it was the fact that our Hymer is factory-fitted with Goldschmitt springs to the front axle, thus allowing a max load of 2000kg for each axle, which completely foxed him.
At his first attempt he tried to up-rate us to 3850 but reduced our front axle load to 1850, thus robbing us of usable payload.
At his second attempt he reinstated the front axle to 2000, but added both axle loads together to give us a total max of 4000!
At his next two attempts he got the weights right, but made errors with VIN Number and registration number.
Throughout the process, we found him to be difficult to contact, and rude when we did manage to get though to him, blaming us for the errors.
After almost giving up the will to live, we had a refund from him and used SV Tech who were professional and efficient.

 

[bellabee]

Duplicate post as result of crap internet connection in Spain

 

[Hettie's Crew]

give us a total max of 4000!

He said we could be 4200kg on our light Alko chassis but only 2200 on the rear axle.
The light Alko can only go to 3850 and the rear can go to 2240.
SV Tech just seam to know all this, were as JR appears to make it up as he goes along.

 

[Rds559]

We have a 75-2 with a payload 315kg not a lot so soon over it and on our VIN plate front axle 1850kg rear axle 2000 but MRO 3500 so axle stall the same but now up rated MRO to 3850kg more wine

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[Rds559]

He said we could be 4200kg on our light Alko chassis but only 2200 on the rear axle.
The light Alko can only go to 3850 and the rear can go to 2240.
SV Tech just seam to know all this, were as JR appears to make it up as he goes along.

 

[Rds559]

I take all the advice from Sv tech but got all my paperwork from JR which is all correct and130 quid cheaper

 

[Youlostoo]

Before I retired I was Transport Manager for a National company with overall responsibility for compliance for a fleet of over 200 vehicles. As I had also gained considerable experience and was professionally qualified, my duties also included specifying and procuring specialist company vehicles and vans, on a daily basis. This often meant modifying a standard chassis by extending the length, installing specialist machinery and increasing the load capacity.
If only uprating of vehicles was as simple as stress calculations alone, as this would mean a significant reduction in costs.
People should be aware that unless a vehicle is already approved at that higher weight by the Manufacturer, since October 2014 a converter must now undertake the full set of dynamic brake tests, in order to cover an increase. At the end of the day, you are the person legally responsible if you vehicle has been modified. Ask the questions I did and make your decision.

 

[JockandRita]

People should be aware that unless a vehicle is already approved at that higher weight by the Manufacturer, since October 2014 a converter must now undertake the full set of dynamic brake tests, in order to cover an increase.

Fortunately, I reckon I'm covered then, as the front uprating to 2000Kgs (done for me by the then VOSA Swansea) was due to a suspension upgrade done by Goldschmitt in Germany, with EU Type Approval Certification, and engineer's report supplied (I paid the extra for that).
The later uprating of the rear tandem axles was done by John Ruffles, and in accordance with the plating on each axle, ie, to a maximum of 1750Kgs, giving me a total GVW of 5500Kgs, from Hymer's original 4500Kgs.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Youlostoo]

Broken Link Removed Unfortunately many people are given information on here who appear to know what they are doing, which is not only incorrect, it's dangerous. You did your homework, many don't.

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[Minxy]

I was gonna reply in more detail but to be honest I can't be bothered anymore ... this will be the last time I try to help others by finding alternative providers of stuff.

If it is a simple upgrade which is genuinely a paper exercise then I can't see the point in paying more, if there are modifications needed to the vehicle in order to be able to go to the higher weight then they need to know exactly what is needed and decide accordingly.

So to choose to use one company or another owners need to decide for themselves what they want to do based on their OWN needs ...

 

[olley]

An extra ton of payload wow, now that's worth doing.

 

[JockandRita]

I was gonna reply in more detail but to be honest I can't be bothered anymore ... this will be the last time I try to help others by finding alternative providers of stuff.

If it is a simple upgrade which is genuinely a paper exercise then I can't see the point in paying more, if there are modifications needed to the vehicle in order to be able to go to the higher weight then they need to know exactly what is needed and decide accordingly.

So to choose to use one company or another owners need to decide for themselves what they want to do based on their OWN needs ...

@Minxy Girl. I'm with you totally Mel and had I acted when you first told us all about JRC, I would have been more in pocket to the tune of £100, however, I dithered about at the time. ...............................

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Happy1]

Fortunately, I reckon I'm covered then, as the front uprating to 2000Kgs (done for me by the then VOSA Swansea) was due to a suspension upgrade done by Goldschmitt in Germany, with EU Type Approval Certification, and engineer's report supplied (I paid the extra for that).
The later uprating of the rear tandem axles was done by John Ruffles, and in accordance with the plating on each axle, ie, to a maximum of 1750Kgs, giving me a total GVW of 5500Kgs, from Hymer's original 4500Kgs.

Cheers,

Jock.

Out of interest how do you know the chassis and the braking system is capable of taking the extra ton payload?

 

[Deneb]

We have a 75-2 with a payload 315kg not a lot so soon over it and on our VIN plate front axle 1850kg rear axle 2000 but MRO 3500 so axle stall the same but now up rated MRO to 3850kg more wine

There is a reason why the sum of axle weights always exceeds the permitted gross weight of the vehicle. Unless you have the facility to load your vehicle whilst on a weighbridge and the time to keep redistributing the contents including you and your passengers to obtain the exactly optimum load distribution (which may be impossible to achieve anyway due to the way that the vehicle has been built, particularly a MH conversion) you are never going to achieve an exact balance between the weights on individual axles and the maximum vehicle weight.

Even if you did, as soon as you accelerate, brake or travel up or downhill, you will be exceeding one or other the permitted axle weights, but I will guarantee that in the real world, you will be overloaded on your rear axle whenever you approach your "new" maximum permissible vehicle weight.

I don't know how much that cost you, but it was a totally impractical exercise under real driving conditions and dare I say a complete waste of money. When loaded to maximum permissible weight, you are 99.9999999% likely to be exceeding one or other of the permitted axle weights and possibly also the load rating of the tyres.

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[treetops1]

Good made a note of all that for future reference i think

 

[gus-lopez]

Out of interest how do you know the chassis and the braking system is capable of taking the extra ton payload?

If the axles are rated at the weight by the manufacturer then the braking system & chassis have to be installed capable of stopping & supporting that weight. The fact that the manufacturer or coachbuilder down rates to get a wider market just means that it is normally a paper exercise to upgrade above the 3,5t & tyres & air suspension to go to the maximum.

 

[Rds559]

Agree the axle weight are 1850 and 2000kg total 3500 out of factory now up rated to 3850kg

 

[Happy1]

does the extra 350 end up on the rear or front?

 

[Rds559]

I’ll spread it all through the van

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[Happy1]

If the axles are rated at the weight by the manufacturer then the braking system & chassis have to be installed capable of stopping & supporting that weight. The fact that the manufacturer or coachbuilder down rates to get a wider market just means that it is normally a paper exercise to upgrade above the 3,5t & tyres & air suspension to go to the maximum.

makes sense but if jock upgraded front to 2000 and rear to max in two separate exercises one type approved but the other paper exercise is that in danger of exceeding chassis maximum? I'm presuming an alko chasis and the heavy version in current catalogue only goes up to a maximum of 5000kg.

its a mine field this up plating and thought it would be easier having it sorted at factory before van arrives but alko have 7 heavy versions all of which can take upto 2100 on front axle!!

 

[Happy1]

I’ll spread it all through the van

Hi was a genuine interest question as done same to mine but cant remember where it goes so to speak, we have a small garage so hope its the rear!! not too much scope for us to add weight to front. did you add rear air?

 

[Happy1]

ignore this one!

 

[Deneb]

I’ll spread it all through the van

But how do you know what weight is being borne by each axle?

The reason that the sum of axle weights exceeds the maximum permissible weight at manufacture is to provide a safety margin and tolerance in the positioning and weight distribution of the load and how it is affected by the constantly changing attitude of the vehicle in motion.

You now have a situation where, if you wish to take full advantage of your MPW, distributing your load correctly to stay within the permitted axle weights is absolutely critical and akin to trying to keep a set of scales balanced by adding weights to each scale whilst blindfolded. Even if you succeed, as soon as you start driving the varying motions of the vehicle will be constantly unweighting one axle and overloading the other.

I still say that unless you're driving with a good proportion of your additional payload allowance distributed in your front footwells and on you and your passenger's laps the back axle will be overloaded anyway.

 

[Rds559]

I don’t know were I am with this but. If I have asked this before just shoot me.
I have up rated my van and if I send my V5 to DVLA it will not be back in time to go to Spain for April,so I’m going to stick my new VIN plate next to my old one and take the DESIGN WEIGHT CERTIFICATE and the engineer appraisal report also I will put the correct weight in pat 7 and sign part 8 on my old V5 and keep my head down.

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