Tide turning against wild camping

[tinkertaylor]

As far as I understand if one parks a motorhome in Scotland in a permitted parking space with no restrictions one is free to spend the night inside, if one does not put out 'camping gear'.

Call this a Park up? I have done it a few times where permitted, car park near Ullapool, Mrs don't like doing it and tbh not been able to sit outside the van is a pain tbh, we're on holiday after all.

Seen a few PVC with no windows that looks exactly the same as a builders van, give away is the solar panel and maxi fan on the roof, that's stealth, isn't it ?

 

[Kayak Kid]

As far as I understand if one parks a motorhome in Scotland in a permitted parking space with no restrictions one is free to spend the night inside, if one does not put out 'camping gear'.

I agree that the access legislation does not permit vehicular access, but that is meant to restrict off-road access. It cannot restrict vehicular access to roads and parking areas.

I am assuming that in your first sentence you mean a public car park type of space rather than an ‘off road’ countryside location - which is a different matter entirely.

The problem regarding public car parking areas/lay- bys and similar ( i.e. adopted roads) is that local authorities in all UK countries vary in their ‘regulations’ with regard to ‘overnight sleeping‘ in public parking and similar areas. What some will permit - others will not. It may not however indicate on a car park signage that there is a no overnight sleeping restriction - but the LAs powers may allow it to exercise a restriction, if it wishes. All powers and resultant ‘regulations’ that a LA has at its disposal are not always written on signage. As I have previously indicated here, in such cases where people are sleeping overnight in a vehicle in a public car parking area (adopted area) which does not explicitly state that overnight sleeping is permitted, could face the potential that the Police may ask you to move on - if that LA does not approve of it.

The issue of ‘camping behaviour’ on a public car parking areas etc is not something that I believe a LA (and I suspect the public) would tolerate well in the UK, As you will know, in much of mainland Europe, in Aires, it is often a formal ‘condition’ to restrict such behaviour - as part of your use. Unfortunately, in my experience it is not often enforced, as many will know to their annoyance - when we can’t get into a space because of the practice. Personally, I have never seen signage in public car parks etc anywhere in the UK, putting such restrictions in place for such practices - although perhaps there are some! I would however expect that a LA has the powers to stop it anyway if it so wished.

We can see signs in public parking areas, lay-bys etc stating explicitly “ No Overnight Parking” or “ No Overnight Sleeping in Vehicle” and these have usually been put up due to the volume of use, safety, complaints or other issues for that particular public area. They are usually underpinned by that LAs powers. All they are doing there is ‘broadcasting’ their powers to restrict that practice in what is probably a problematic hotspot - but in that LA, its powers will probably allow it to enforce it elsewhere if it wished - even if no signage is displayed.

To address your second point. The SOAC and supporting legislation, to which I have been commenting on previously, is as you correctly state, not related to public adopted roads/ areas as they are already covered in/by other legislations/ bye laws or regulations as mentioned above. As happens in threads, the topic can wander and widen into other areas. The SOAC is designed to address land and water use - either privately or publicly owned, and it is that use in Scotland by Campervan/ Motorhomes and other vehicle ‘tourists’ which I am addressing.

 

[G-RMPS]

"Keep moving. There's not much time." - Unknown

 

[MichaelT]

Currently on the beach at Vera Playa and must be about 100 vans here spread right round the bay. Arrived about 12 and there were 2 Spanish plated vans (brit owners) at the front but not directly on the sea front. Signs saying no parking along sea front as you enter. Local council person asks the 2 Spanish vans to move back but leaves the rest all non Spanish vans as they are.

Madness

 

[Northernraider]

The German motorhome owners are great and have some great vans. It’s the hippie contingent who I find hard to get my head around. Not all but many of them just don’t give a damn and will pee where they want, write on walls etc. personally witnessed on this trip.

Perhaps I am getting old

Unfortunately it's often the big motorhome owners that are the eyesore, have the chairs ,tables and awnings out and trailers with cars etc attached. I've seen countless German tanks with bottles of piss sat outside that they empty in the bushes later. They're also most likely to be the ones parked on the same spot for weeks/months.

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[Northernraider]

The correct term is 'Stealth Camping'
That is; camping on or near, a road, or in an semi-urban location.
Normally trying to blend into background and it not be recognised that you are in residence.
This can apply to rough sleepers, tent campers, cars & small vans, or caravans & motorhomes.

"Wild Camping"
Is what you describe above.
By definition it is not within sight or sound of a road or buildings.
It could be on agricultural land, but more likely on moors, heath, forest or upland areas.
It would normally involve a tent, tarp, hammock or similar.
"Take nothing but memories leave nothing but footprints"

It annoys me as well every time I see the use of the words 'wild camping' when they mean 'stealth camping'.
It is almost impossible to 'wild camp' in a conventional 2x4 motorhome.

Perhaps Jim could update the glossary of terms

Both those terms are incorrect if you wish to be pedantic.

Stealth camping is usually done in vehicles that do not look like a camper , usually no windows etc


It's simply off site camping

But then I don't call it camping either if I'm simply parked .

It's just parked. The same as a car or any other vehicle. What I'm doing inside that vehicle has absolutely no bearing on the fact it is parked.

 

[Northernraider]

They might be locals. I have been reading that there is a big problem with lack of housing for young locals in the Canaries. Many of them work in hospitality and tourism on low wages. Van life and wild camping might be their only solution.

That's pretty much how I started fulltiming. I was offered a job in gran canaria, sold the house etc bought the frankia and planned to drive it down there to live in on the island while I worked. That's what 3 of the guys who already worked there did. There's loads do it in the canaries . And that was back in 2017

 

[Northernraider]

Perhaps we adopt yet another Americanism and call it Boondocking

Meaning of boondocking in English according to the Cambridge Dictionary

The activity of camping (= sleeping outside in a tent or special vehicle) on land that does not have any services and is not part of an official campsite:

That's why my Instagram is @the_boondockin_bums

 

[Northernraider]

In New Zealand they call it 'Freedom Camping' but you must be a self contained unit with registration documents and a sticker on the unit to prove you have appropriate toilet and water tank etc or you receive a very substantial fine . Why cannot authorities instigate such policy when you purchase any MH or Camper as you pay your Road Tax - linked to your Insurance and MOT certificate. Recognised around the EU and beyond

Having a sticker saying you have a toilet on board unfortunately doesn't guarantee where that toilet is emptied. All the vans in Spain have toilets on board. Or at least most of them . But some never move for months on end.

 

[Northernraider]

This is wild camping….

View attachment 862090View attachment 862092

That's not wild camping that's just being stupid for the sake of being stupid

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[Northernraider]

Jim,

There is however an ‘incorrect’ term though, and that is ‘Wild Camping’. By any stretch, sleeping in a Campervan or Motorhome is hardly ‘camping’ and parking overnight ‘off road’ is hardly ‘wild‘ in most situations.

Whilst not wishing to be involved in a discussion on the semantics of various terms, I have written on here previously about the misunderstanding that is apparent when some UK (and other) vehicle tourists (including Scots) park ‘off road’ in Scotland. The misunderstanding emanates from the unique access rights that exist in Scotland where the term ‘Wild Camping‘ has a particular and legal meaning. The freedom of access in Scotland under the current legislation (Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003) covering most land and water, allows ‘wild camping’ but it relates to land access on foot, and camping in a small tent - within certain parameters, such as not within fenced or livestock areas and agricultural land as a general rule. ‘Wild Camping‘ is not permitted with any type of vehicle!

’Off Road’ (as I am calling it) overnight stops in a Campervan, Motorhome or any vehicle in Scotland is only permitted if allowed by the land owner - whether that be a private or public owner.

Unfortunately the increasing number of vehicle owners who incorrectly think that they can park up for the night ‘off road’ without permission in Scotland is helping to increase the ongoing backlash and restrictions that we do not want! Many vehicle tourists travelling around Scotland (and I also include home Scots too) incorrectly think that our ‘Wild Camping’ access right extend to them.

In order to have clarity, lack of misunderstanding and a continued responsible use of our beautiful Scottish countryside it would help to eliminate the term ‘Wild Camping‘ from our Campervan/ Motorhome language (at least on this website) and replace it with ‘off road’, ‘off grid’, ‘off site’ or something more appropriate. I would not support the term ‘Stealth’ as a replacement as for me it has brings a ‘negative’ connotation.

Some reading this might think that my plea is trivial - but as responsible people we can all play a small part in maintaining reasonable responsible access to places that we all love.

I rest my case (again)

I've wild camped, parked in Scotland for 33 years .

I'm not for changing the name now just because councils,government employees etc who have most likely never camped in their lives want to dictate to those who do it what it's called

If I park in the wilds away from town , villages ,cities etc then I'm bleeding wild camping and I don't care if others have a different name for it or not.



Back in the 50's they called going out on a date courting


Times change and the meaning of things change too.

Folk just need to accept it and move on

 

[Northernraider]

The proper term is 'Selfish Freeloading'! Why not ask for permission and make a small payment to help someone else ?.... It's better than just helping yourself!

And the winner of the most pointless comment is

 

[Kayak Kid]

I've wild camped, parked in Scotland for 33 years .

I'm not for changing the name now just because councils,government employees etc who have most likely never camped in their lives want to dictate to those who do it what it's called

If I park in the wilds away from town , villages ,cities etc then I'm bleeding wild camping and I don't care if others have a different name for it or not.



Back in the 50's they called going out on a date courting


Times change and the meaning of things change too.

Folk just need to accept it and move on

The Scottish government is not dictating what motorhomers etc call ‘off site’ overnight parking. It is defining what wild camping is in relation to land access definition. It is much wider than just motorhomers. Sure, you and others can carry on as before even ss times change - but it doesn’t change the fact that the term does cause confusion and conflict when vehicle tourists of all types think they can overnight park in areas in Scotland when they have no permission. That won’t help us all at all in the long run as restrictions tighten!

 

[Northernraider]

The Scottish government is not dictating what motorhomers etc call ‘off site’ overnight parking. It is defining what wild camping is in relation to land access definition. It is much wider than just motorhomers. Sure, you and others can carry on as before even ss times change - but it doesn’t change the fact that the term does cause confusion and conflict when vehicle tourists of all types think they can overnight park in areas in Scotland when they have no permission. That won’t help us all at all in the long run as restrictions tighten!

I've stopped worrying about the restrictions.. let's face it they will happen regardless as unfortunately like the rest of the UK Scotland just wants the money. So anywhere free will face restrictions. I've seen it for years in Scotland what was once a simple laybye by a Loch you could stop for a coffee and a photo is now a pay n display carpark with barriers.

I'll simply continue to do what I do until they make it impossible to do it then I'll either be too old or I'll find something else to do.

Most of the no overnight parking signs in Scotland were deemed illegal and were removed the others get ignored. I for one will never be asking permission to park anywhere. I'm increasingly of the opinion the land was all stolen at somepoint and fed up with the fact every piece of land is claimed to be owned by someone... most who can't provide a receipt.

The term doesn't cause confusion really. Everyone with a camper or motorhome knows exactly what's meant by the term wildcamping .. God knows there's some thread or other bringing it up on an almost weekly basis.

Usually it's ght that's in arguing on behalf of the local authorities but he must be on holiday this week lol.

 

[Kayak Kid]

I've stopped worrying about the restrictions.. let's face it they will happen regardless as unfortunately like the rest of the UK Scotland just wants the money. So anywhere free will face restrictions. I've seen it for years in Scotland what was once a simple laybye by a Loch you could stop for a coffee and a photo is now a pay n display carpark with barriers.

I'll simply continue to do what I do until they make it impossible to do it then I'll either be too old or I'll find something else to do.

Most of the no overnight parking signs in Scotland were deemed illegal and were removed the others get ignored. I for one will never be asking permission to park anywhere. I'm increasingly of the opinion the land was all stolen at somepoint and fed up with the fact every piece of land is claimed to be owned by someone... most who can't provide a receipt.

The term doesn't cause confusion really. Everyone with a camper or motorhome knows exactly what's meant by the term wildcamping .. God knows there's some thread or other bringing it up on an almost weekly basis.

Usually it's ght that's in arguing on behalf of the local authorities but he must be on holiday this week lol.

Ah well there you have it!

It would be nice to see people respecting the country that they visit - instead of a couldn’t care less attitude about the people who have to live with the ignorance or selfishness, or who might enjoy the countryside in the future. The issues being mentioned on this thread about Spain are perhaps giving us a glimpse of the future here in Scotland and indeed other parts of the UK.

I am afraid that everyone with a Camper or Motorhome does not understand what is meant by ‘wild camping’ in Scotland. If they did, I would not be making this case here.

To make statements such as “most of the overnight parking signs in Scotland were deemed illegal“ - (apart from being misleading and incorrect), add to the confusion for people visiting the country - prompting even more tensions and conflict with the local communities.

I am certainly not arguing on behalf of the Scottish Goverment or local authorities - but am speaking up to try to help protect the Scottish countryside for the future enjoyment of the local people and the visiting people who do care - wherever they are from!

The access rights in Scotland through the establishment of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 were hard fought for over the years - in the courts and elsewhere, and are the envy of the rest of the UK And wider. Those of us who treasure those rights for a whole range of recreational and sporting activities don’t want to see them lost - due to the selfish behaviour of others.

So yes there you have it - we can all pay the price for the selfish or ignorant actions of the few!

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[Northernraider]

Ah well there you have it!

It would be nice to see people respecting the country that they visit - instead of a couldn’t care less attitude about the people who have to live with the ignorance or selfishness, or who might enjoy the countryside in the future. The issues being mentioned on this thread about Spain are perhaps giving us a glimpse of the future here in Scotland and indeed other parts of the UK.

I am afraid that everyone with a Camper or Motorhome does not understand what is meant by ‘wild camping’ in Scotland. If they did, I would not be making this case here.

To make statements such as “most of the overnight parking signs in Scotland were deemed illegal“ - (apart from being misleading and incorrect), add to the confusion for people visiting the country - prompting even more tensions and conflict with the local communities.

I am certainly not arguing on behalf of the Scottish Goverment or local authorities - but am speaking up to try to help protect the Scottish countryside for the future enjoyment of the local people and the visiting people who do care - wherever they are from!

The access rights in Scotland through the establishment of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 were hard fought for over the years - in the courts and elsewhere, and are the envy of the rest of the UK And wider. Those of us who treasure those rights for a whole range of recreational and sporting activities don’t want to see them lost - due to the selfish behaviour of others.

So yes there you have it - we can all pay the price for the selfish or ignorant actions of the few!

I'm Scottish..

Do get off your soapbox as it is rather condescending. If you want to be a drone blindly following ridiculous rules created by your masters to enslave you go right ahead but believe me you will never make me feel bad for living my life and ignoring most of their stupid rules. Especially when those making the rules are the ones breaking other ones.

There is nothing ignorant about my actions I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing. Selfish ? Yes it may well seem that way to those daft enough to think what I do has any impact on what they do in any way. To the free of thinking they know it makes not a blind bit of if difference. The restrictions are nothing to do with what they tell you it's for . It's because those making money from those restrictions line the pockets of those with the power to introduce them.

It's that simple.

 

[Kayak Kid]

I'm Scottish..

Do get off your soapbox as it is rather condescending. If you want to be a drone blindly following ridiculous rules created by your masters to enslave you go right ahead but believe me you will never make me feel bad for living my life and ignoring most of their stupid rules. Especially when those making the rules are the ones breaking other ones.

There is nothing ignorant about my actions I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing. Selfish ? Yes it may well seem that way to those daft enough to think what I do has any impact on what they do in any way. To the free of thinking they know it makes not a blind bit of if difference. The restrictions are nothing to do with what they tell you it's for . It's because those making money from those restrictions line the pockets of those with the power to introduce them.

It's that simple.

So there you have it…!

 

[Mike001]

Having a sticker saying you have a toilet on board unfortunately doesn't guarantee where that toilet is emptied.

This is true ^^^

Having said that, most towns / cities have dump points. Often two. Easy to locate with the free app "Camper Mate"
Some vehicles tho shouldn't even have a self containment sticker. IE: station wagon with a mattress thrown in the back. They just print a sticker themselves. Heavy fines tho if they get caught' and rightly so.

 

[Northernraider]

This is true ^^^

Having said that, most towns / cities have dump points. Often two. Easy to locate with the free app "Camper Mate"
Some vehicles tho shouldn't even have a self containment sticker. IE: station wagon with a mattress thrown in the back. They just print a sticker themselves. Heavy fines tho if they get caught' and rightly so.

Yes if the UK wasn't hell bent on closing a the public toilets to push people in to cafes, bars etc instead. They could have made dump points at those public toilets. Probably would have cost less than the many pointless signs that will never be enforced.

You'll never see any signs restricting car parking etc at beaches and things where folk have no toilets and use the bushes . Because of course the public would create an uproar. Campers are an easy target and a profitable one.

 

[Harrogate motorhomer]

We took our motorhome up to Scarborough yesterday,went down to the south bay,absolutely packed with motorhomes,must have been near to sixty,with lots staying over winter.

Since the council installed the service point there has been a large increase in the number of motorhomes that long stay. This changes at the end of March when parking charges are reintroduced. I’m not sure this is what was envisaged & no doubt some will over egg it until the council/residents make changes.

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