Tide turning against wild camping

[Just smiffy]

This is what we get on the costas here. They were at Mazarron mines, not sure exactly what bit of coast they filmed. But it's all the same.

I’ve recently seen that too Martin, my experience this December gone has really put me off doing winter along the Spanish coast now. I’ll have to rethink my options next winter… like not hanging around the coasts and going straight over to Morocco…

 

[jumartoo]

I’ve recently seen that too Martin, my experience this December gone has really put me off doing winter along the Spanish coast now. I’ll have to rethink my options next winter… like not hanging around the coasts and going straight over to Morocco…

Hmmmm Martin? Try Judith

 

[Markman]

"Wild camping" . . . while we are sorting things, can we also finality resolve how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Coolcats]

In December-ish I mentioned in the "are Germans destroying wild camping in Spain" thread the increasing numbers along the protected natural park area if the 340 near us.
I just saw this in Sur (see https://www.surinenglish.com/malaga...oliferation-motorhomes-20240130184014-nt.html)

"Diario Sur - Diario de Málaga. Noticias de Malaga

Motorhomes and caravans in the Maro Cerro-Gordo area.

Environmental group demands action over proliferation of motorhomes on Costa del Sol ‘Nomad Land’

Signs prohibiting overnight stays have been vandalised and people staying in the area are “dumping of all kinds of rubbish: leftover food, wipes, toilet paper, excrement, urine, and other items", according to GENA-Ecologistas en Acción
An environmental campaign group based in the Axarquía, on the eastern stretch of the Costa del Sol, has for the third year running denounced what it describes as a proliferation of motorhomes in the coastal village of Maro. The group has also complained of squatters using abandoned buildings in the area.

Gabinete de Estudios de la Naturaleza de la Axarquía (GENA-Ecologistas en Acción) said in a press statement on Monday 29 January, “This year, throughout the month of January, we have been observing the gradual arrival of motorhomes that give the impression of being coordinated, colonising the protected area as if it were a winter 'Nomad Land', in some cases coming from other places, such as the Alpujarras [Granada province]. The number of motorhomes is estimated at around fifty.”

According to the spokesman for the environmental group, biologist Rafael Yus, "some campers have settled” under the pine trees in the Alberquillas area of the village, where he claims they stay “for very long periods of time". Similarly, according to GENA, "there is a community of squatters who have settled in an abandoned house also located in the Alberquillas area".

Yus went on to say, "In all these cases it is not a one-off or one-day visit, but they stay for an indefinite period of time, some for several weeks, so they are in breach of the rule of not staying overnight in the natural area". He argued that “In addition to breaching the general rule that prohibits free camping and even less so in a protected natural area, other problems are occurring".

Consequences for local wildlife

GENA claimed that signs prohibiting overnight stays have been vandalised and that people staying in the area are “dumping of all kinds of rubbish: leftover food, wipes, toilet paper, excrement, urine, and other items, including highly polluting items such as bottles of motor oil, some of which have been opened and dumped on the ground".

The environmental group also claimed that vegetation has been trampled on which has damaging consequences to local wildlife, there have been bonfires which add to the risk of wildfires, fishing which they highlight affects sea life and as the noise caused by music and parties, which the group says also has an impact on local wildlife.

GENA has called on the Junta de Andalucía to take action and has urged the regional government to “establish an agreement with the Guardia Civil and the police, to make regular visits to the site to remove all squatters; to put back signs prohibiting overnight stays and place them in both El Cañuelo and Alberquillas; ask Nerja’s Local Police to make regular visits to the site and fine users “so that foreigners pay the fines” as well as build a barrier at the entrance to prevent access, thereby limiting an important part of the problem. "This is already being done in the Cabo de Gata natural park in Almeria," the group added.

Imagen principal - Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

Imagen secundaria 1 - Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

Imagen secundaria 2 - Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

The Junta de Andalucía's representation in Malaga has replied that "the appropriate inspections and sanctions are being carried out" and added, "It would be desirable to coordinate with other administrations, including the town hall, to find a definitive solution for the defence and protection of this natural area". SUR tried unsuccessfully to get a statement from Nerja town hall about the situation."

I'm a bit upset with all this, to be honest. As a local I don't want to be turned into some kind of pariah due to the actions of, mostly, foreign motorhomers. But if this carries on it will be" pay on an aire / site" or "bu66er off" time very soon.

Like many activities what was once just a few people 'Wild Camping' has gone more mainstream you then get a lot more people thinking its a cheap way to live and then you get the problems.

There is a local PVC conversion that started parking on a verge in a lane near ourselves, I hear he had marital issues and left and lives in the PVC. The issue is now that where he parks instead of a grass verge it is fully rutted no grass. This has also attracted more parking meaning more ruts Mudy tracks and at some point I suspect the council will ban parking on this lane.

 

[scotjimland]

You'd be amazed.Morelos,concorde,palace liners, custom built Scania truck units

maybe a bit strapped for cash after buying the fancy rigs .. or just commoner FLTs

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[PeterCarole29]

True, as you say we have a vast collection of motorhome related content.
But there are more tents and hikers out there than us.
'Camping in the wild' is not the same as 'camping stealthily'

Part of the remit of a forum is to educate, so perhaps there should be encouragement to use the correct terms for things rather than glossing over an error and allowing it to perpetuate.

We all know what a 'stealth van' is, I've yet to come across a 'wild van

I dont accept we all know what a stealth van in as much theres nothing Stealth van about the van. You can call something what you like but doesnt mean it is

 

[Brains]

I dont accept we all know what a stealth van in as much theres nothing Stealth van about the van.
You can call something what you like but doesnt mean it is

Agreed.

But I think we can also agree that overnighting in a car park is not 'Camping in the Wild'

 

[nicholsong]

Agreed.

But I think we can also agree that overnighting in a car park is not 'Camping in the Wild'

Depends on the car park: we park just next to beaches on an island in Greece, next to the swimmers in cars. Only MH on the island, always welcome. Which island? Don't ask.

Wee re certainly independent and the locations are certainly Nature.

 

[PeterCarole29]

Agreed.

But I think we can also agree that overnighting in a car park is not 'Camping in the Wild'

Ok I must have missed you are calling wild camping camping in the wild . Two different things to me .

If i myself said i was "camping in the wild" I would be specifically be reffering to sleeping overnight in a tent or campervan-motorhome in places that are perceived to be in the wild

1. Wild camping and 2. stealth vans are what i would personally describe as

1. (wild camping) Sleeping overnight in an non designated area for camping

2. Stealth vans to me has come about by some that have clung on to a phrase that has become fashionable to use
and from that some use Stealth camping ,for what they think is sleeping in a van in an urban area.

Its become a following with a younger generation. Fashions change. But i see nothing stealth about it. I know we have all personal views that we agree are different. I do chuckle to myself when i see a van conversion with stealth written on it and reminds me when it was deemed fashionable/trendy to be seen with a FILOfAX i thought then they were kn-bs. They are Diaries or planners but the phrase stuck.
Maybe i am a dinosaur stuck in my ways but i am happy

 

[L' Hobo]

An interesting piece on BBC News this morning.
It showed the main resurvior serving Barcelona is down to 6% of it's capacity and drought measures have been predicted!

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[TDub49]

Technology failure . . . . operator error.

 

[L' Hobo]

Technology failure . . . . operator error.

No, that is a rant against Wild Camping (Fascists, postcard sellers and the local government!)

Edit: it now appears to have gone?

 

[TDub49]

No, that is a rant against Wild Camping (Fascists, postcard sellers and the local government!)

Edit: it now appears to have gone?

Wrong clip.

 

[Markman]

I’ve recently seen that too Martin, my experience this December gone has really put me off doing winter along the Spanish coast now. I’ll have to rethink my options next winter… like not hanging around the coasts and going straight over to Morocco…

We have just spent almost three weeks on Sicily, probably more local population than southern Spain (so maybe less options for wild-wild camping) but we were almost the only campervan or motorhome around. A mixture of €10/night sites, with zero facilities, free areas/wild camping and a site with drainage and filling every 3 days. But nowhere did we ever see hordes of campervan/motorhomes. Too far from "civilization"?

 

[ericonabike]

I've always thought that "wild camping" in motorhomes is a total misnomer. Especially as the one behaviour you shouldn't exhibit is "camping"! Perhaps "wild parking" would be a more appropriate, if less romantic, term...

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[Madwitch]

The correct term is 'Stealth Camping'
That is; camping on or near, a road, or in an semi-urban location.
Normally trying to blend into background and it not be recognised that you are in residence.
This can apply to rough sleepers, tent campers, cars & small vans, or caravans & motorhomes.

"Wild Camping"
Is what you describe above.
By definition it is not within sight or sound of a road or buildings.
It could be on agricultural land, but more likely on moors, heath, forest or upland areas.
It would normally involve a tent, tarp, hammock or similar.
"Take nothing but memories leave nothing but footprints"

It annoys me as well every time I see the use of the words 'wild camping' when they mean 'stealth camping'.
It is almost impossible to 'wild camp' in a conventional 2x4 motorhome.

Perhaps Jim could update the glossary of terms

Hardly "stealth" camping when you're in a big white box!

 

[TDub49]

Hardly "stealth" camping when you're in a big white box!

Other colour tin boxes are available. The thing is, "camping" is something you do in a tent, or under a tarpaulin strung between a couple of trees, or in a bivvy bag, or simply in a sleeping bag under the stars.

Sitting in a motorised tin box is variously motor homing, van-lifing or sitting in a van. It's not camping. Where you park and whether you are off or on the "grid" is is irrelevant except when you claim to be "off grid" when in fact you have a small solar power station on your roof, banks of batteries and aerials galore to keep you actually firmly "on the grid".

Words aye? Don't you just love 'em.

 

[Tonks]

Well I do nt like the confusion between wild camping and off grid. To me off grid means no ehu but I recognise the purists mean no ehu and no other services. Lots of pub stops of course have no services at all, but are authorised overnight stops. Don’t know what term you use for that. None of these terms have absolutely perfect definitions.

I log my overnight stays on a spreadsheet. I have a column headed 'site', and another column headed 'off-site'. That covers both nicely. I'm off site at least 2/3 more than I'm onsite. I have a column listing the costs, so if I'm paying for EHU it's included there.

 

[Coolcats]

These are wild camping images,

Hilleberg #vestibeautiful

The view from your vestibule is too good not to share! Show us your #HillebergVestibeautiful pictures and we’ll continue to post our favorites here.

hilleberg.com

#HoundsOfHilleberg

We know our four legged best friends love to sleep in tents. Show us your #HoundsOfHilleberg photos, and we will continue to post our favorites here.

hilleberg.com

Having a fully loaded Motorhome with all the comforts of home can never be described as Wild….mind you some locals may not be wild but furious

 

[seasideBill]

This is wild camping….

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[Kayak Kid]

That a name you can call it, but there is no correct term. If someone tells me they wildcamped all they way down to Cadiz, I know exactly what they did, they didn't use sites and there was no stealth about it.

Jim,

There is however an ‘incorrect’ term though, and that is ‘Wild Camping’. By any stretch, sleeping in a Campervan or Motorhome is hardly ‘camping’ and parking overnight ‘off road’ is hardly ‘wild‘ in most situations.

Whilst not wishing to be involved in a discussion on the semantics of various terms, I have written on here previously about the misunderstanding that is apparent when some UK (and other) vehicle tourists (including Scots) park ‘off road’ in Scotland. The misunderstanding emanates from the unique access rights that exist in Scotland where the term ‘Wild Camping‘ has a particular and legal meaning. The freedom of access in Scotland under the current legislation (Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003) covering most land and water, allows ‘wild camping’ but it relates to land access on foot, and camping in a small tent - within certain parameters, such as not within fenced or livestock areas and agricultural land as a general rule. ‘Wild Camping‘ is not permitted with any type of vehicle!

’Off Road’ (as I am calling it) overnight stops in a Campervan, Motorhome or any vehicle in Scotland is only permitted if allowed by the land owner - whether that be a private or public owner.

Unfortunately the increasing number of vehicle owners who incorrectly think that they can park up for the night ‘off road’ without permission in Scotland is helping to increase the ongoing backlash and restrictions that we do not want! Many vehicle tourists travelling around Scotland (and I also include home Scots too) incorrectly think that our ‘Wild Camping’ access right extend to them.

In order to have clarity, lack of misunderstanding and a continued responsible use of our beautiful Scottish countryside it would help to eliminate the term ‘Wild Camping‘ from our Campervan/ Motorhome language (at least on this website) and replace it with ‘off road’, ‘off grid’, ‘off site’ or something more appropriate. I would not support the term ‘Stealth’ as a replacement as for me it has brings a ‘negative’ connotation.

Some reading this might think that my plea is trivial - but as responsible people we can all play a small part in maintaining reasonable responsible access to places that we all love.

I rest my case (again)

 

[nicholsong]

I log my overnight stays on a spreadsheet. I have a column headed 'site', and another column headed 'off-site'. That covers both nicely. I'm off site at least 2/3 more than I'm onsite. I have a column listing the costs, so if I'm paying for EHU it's included there.

Under which category do Aires/Stellplatz fit?

 

[PaulW2]

 

[Coolcats]

Under which category do Aires/Stellplatz fit?

Lay-by

 

[Kayak Kid]

Under which category do Aires/Stellplatz fit?

I would suggest ‘on site’ as it is an officially organised and authorised area (with or without services).

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[jumartoo]

Under which category do Aires/Stellplatz fit?

Authorised free (unless they're private and not free) parking areas.

 

[bigtwin]

Hardly "stealth" camping when you're in a big white box!

Hiding in plain sight?

The misunderstanding emanates from the unique access rights that exist in Scotland where the term ‘Wild Camping‘ has a particular and legal meaning.

Indeed it does but that fact doesn’t preclude its use in any other context.

Wild Camping‘ is not permitted with any type of vehicle!

In the context of the SOAC that is, indeed, the case. However, as stated above, ‘wild camping’ when legally parked (as any car might be) is a perfectly legitimate use of the term in that context.
I have some sympathy with where you're coming from as my pet hate is the endemic misuse in the UK of the term Engineer (typically used to refer to anyone who uses tools, and others as well) but I have to accept that the great British public are unlikely to afford proper Engineers with the status/respect that they deserve.

’Off Road’ (as I am calling it) overnight stops in a Campervan, Motorhome or any vehicle in Scotland is only permitted if allowed by the land owner - whether that be a private or public owner.

I’m always amazed by the apparent insight that those who denigrate ‘wild campers’ for parking without, apparently, having permission. I guess that it’s just a hobby horse for those with that imagined insight.

Ian

 

[Kevin R]

M

In December-ish I mentioned in the "are Germans destroying wild camping in Spain" thread the increasing numbers along the protected natural park area if the 340 near us.
I just saw this in Sur (see https://www.surinenglish.com/malaga...oliferation-motorhomes-20240130184014-nt.html)

"Diario Sur - Diario de Málaga. Noticias de Malaga

Motorhomes and caravans in the Maro Cerro-Gordo area.

Environmental group demands action over proliferation of motorhomes on Costa del Sol ‘Nomad Land’

Signs prohibiting overnight stays have been vandalised and people staying in the area are “dumping of all kinds of rubbish: leftover food, wipes, toilet paper, excrement, urine, and other items", according to GENA-Ecologistas en Acción
An environmental campaign group based in the Axarquía, on the eastern stretch of the Costa del Sol, has for the third year running denounced what it describes as a proliferation of motorhomes in the coastal village of Maro. The group has also complained of squatters using abandoned buildings in the area.

Gabinete de Estudios de la Naturaleza de la Axarquía (GENA-Ecologistas en Acción) said in a press statement on Monday 29 January, “This year, throughout the month of January, we have been observing the gradual arrival of motorhomes that give the impression of being coordinated, colonising the protected area as if it were a winter 'Nomad Land', in some cases coming from other places, such as the Alpujarras [Granada province]. The number of motorhomes is estimated at around fifty.”

According to the spokesman for the environmental group, biologist Rafael Yus, "some campers have settled” under the pine trees in the Alberquillas area of the village, where he claims they stay “for very long periods of time". Similarly, according to GENA, "there is a community of squatters who have settled in an abandoned house also located in the Alberquillas area".

Yus went on to say, "In all these cases it is not a one-off or one-day visit, but they stay for an indefinite period of time, some for several weeks, so they are in breach of the rule of not staying overnight in the natural area". He argued that “In addition to breaching the general rule that prohibits free camping and even less so in a protected natural area, other problems are occurring".

Consequences for local wildlife

GENA claimed that signs prohibiting overnight stays have been vandalised and that people staying in the area are “dumping of all kinds of rubbish: leftover food, wipes, toilet paper, excrement, urine, and other items, including highly polluting items such as bottles of motor oil, some of which have been opened and dumped on the ground".

The environmental group also claimed that vegetation has been trampled on which has damaging consequences to local wildlife, there have been bonfires which add to the risk of wildfires, fishing which they highlight affects sea life and as the noise caused by music and parties, which the group says also has an impact on local wildlife.

GENA has called on the Junta de Andalucía to take action and has urged the regional government to “establish an agreement with the Guardia Civil and the police, to make regular visits to the site to remove all squatters; to put back signs prohibiting overnight stays and place them in both El Cañuelo and Alberquillas; ask Nerja’s Local Police to make regular visits to the site and fine users “so that foreigners pay the fines” as well as build a barrier at the entrance to prevent access, thereby limiting an important part of the problem. "This is already being done in the Cabo de Gata natural park in Almeria," the group added.

Imagen principal - Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

Imagen secundaria 1 - Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

Imagen secundaria 2 - Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

Motorhomes in the area; vandalised signs; oil containers dumped on the ground.

The Junta de Andalucía's representation in Malaga has replied that "the appropriate inspections and sanctions are being carried out" and added, "It would be desirable to coordinate with other administrations, including the town hall, to find a definitive solution for the defence and protection of this natural area". SUR tried unsuccessfully to get a statement from Nerja town hall about the situation."

I'm a bit upset with all this, to be honest. As a local I don't want to be turned into some kind of pariah due to the actions of, mostly, foreign motorhomers. But if this carries on it will be" pay on an aire / site" or "bu66er off" time very soon.

Many years ago I wild camped for only one night and it was then an unwritten law to leave the place better than you found it. Longer than one night was spent in a campsite. Unfortunately, as many years have passed, I slowly stopped one night wild camping because of the pigs that show no respect for nature and other people. I’ve been using a German ‘Stellplatz Fuhre‘ for a number of years with success. Dolden Media publish an excellent 2 volume version, one for Germany and the other for the rest of Europe. The symbols are easy to understand for non German speakers.

 

[scotjimland]

The problem then arrises with those who read the Scottish Outdoor Access Code and Access rights that extend to wild camping and believe they can do so in a motorhome ..

This 'misunderstanding' has become a problem in many parts of Scotland .. I've even read on here that 'wild camping' is legal in Scotland, when in fact the same rules about 'off site camping' in England and Wales also apply in Scotland.

Unfortunately the increasing number of vehicle owners who incorrectly think that they can park up for the night ‘off road’ without permission in Scotland is helping to increase the ongoing backlash and restrictions that we do not want! Many vehicle tourists travelling around Scotland (and I also include home Scots too) incorrectly think that our ‘Wild Camping’ access right extend to them.

agreed and as I said ^^^^^^^^^^^^

sadly, it is still posted on many FB groups and other media that you are allowed to 'wild camp' in Scotland with a van / morotome ..

there has literally been an explosion of campervans and motorhomes .. particularly since the pandemic.. but it started long before that, and there has been very little infrastructure provided to support the hobby ..

areas in Scotland like the NC500 will need to controlled by making them national parks, (like the Trossachs and Loch Lomond National Park ) and with a permit to access for a limited time.. and only for self-sufficient vans.. if travelling by car other other transport .. proof you are booked into a campsite, an Hotel or B&B .. for the permit duration.

money raised used to provide overnight stops with basic services, ie water and waste disposal, .. numbers strictly controlled.. employ park rangers to enforce regulations..

 

[Kayak Kid]

Authorised free (unless they're private and not free)

Hiding in plain sight?


Indeed it does but that fact doesn’t preclude its use in any other context.


In the context of the SOAC that is, indeed, the case. However, as stated above, ‘wild camping’ when legally parked (as any car might be) is a perfectly legitimate use of the term in that context.
I have some sympathy with where you're coming from as my pet hate is the endemic misuse in the UK of the term Engineer (typically used to refer to anyone who uses tools, and others as well) but I have to accept that the great British public are unlikely to afford proper Engineers with the status/respect that they deserve.


I’m always amazed by the apparent insight that those who denigrate ‘wild campers’ for parking without, apparently, having permission. I guess that it’s just a hobby horse for those with that imagined insight.

Ian

Ian,

Obviously people can call it what they like. - albeit the practice is hardly wild camping’ by any stretch of the imagination in my view.

My plea was made on the basis of the fact the term ‘wild camping’ has a very clear legal meaning in the use of land in Scotland. As a resident Scot and an Outdoor Instructor, I am seeing an ever increasing negative attitude towards Campervans and Motorhomes - caused at times by poor behaviour and our obvious presence on the landscape. There are many thousands of leisure vehicle owning visitors to and from Scotland who value their visits. However there are constant and growing restrictions being put in place in Scotland and indeed around the U.K. and if we can play a small part in changing our language to avoid misunderstandings, then I think it worth the effort to help preserve our hobby, pastime or way of life!

Personally, I am not in any way denegrating anyone who overnights off site - indeed I do it myself’ but purely trying to be constructive to help preserve what we have.

Anyway, I appreciate ‘off site’ or ‘off road’ is not nearly as ‘sexy’ as saying you were ‘wild camping’ at the weekend - but hey ho - we reap what we sow!

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