this Bl**dy Heat exchanger....

Silver-Fox · Tuesday at 2:13 PM

Googlebot said:
Look in the engine bay where the pipes exit the bulkhead, is there a bleed screw like this on the new black pipe? It doesn’t sound like an air lock though if the engine is getting warm from the Alde.

View attachment 977392

Sounds to me like a valve not opening on the engine circuit when the switch is pressed. It is frustrating as it’s working one way from the Alde but not the other.

Are the two bigger pipes in the picture going into the hab area??

If so do they both get hot when hab travelling heat selected??

If not I’d say a stuck valve even if electro mechanical.

haganap · Tuesday at 3:45 PM

jongood said:
Alde at Wellingborough would probably be the better solution for this particular issue

They aren't.

I've already spoken to them. Because it's a cab issue they can't help

haganap · Tuesday at 4:23 PM

Ok, everyone, thanks for sharing your ideas and offering some help... and Silver-Fox definately not a knob.

So I have wasted a few more hours on the job in hand ensuring that I have tried everything possible.

Just so I can be sure, I know a few of you have offered operating instructions for how you use yours, but I am 99.5% confident I have done this am doing this correctly.

Just to add one thing, it does appear that Martin was right and this might change somethings. When I assumed it was working the other way around, it may not actually be, it appears when the heating is on, it sort of pipes all around the cab anyway, therefore when I start the engine, the fan heater (standard on all models) is already producing heat, but not neccesarily to the engine as the pipes remain cold.

So I have a load of pictures of what I have tested, looked in to... see if its anymore help.. Please don't make me go to TW... All four pipes at th heat exchanger ar warm when the heating is on, but it doesnt travel to the engine.

Picture 1, this is the control panel. The blue radiator button I am now led to believe this actually does nothing. not a thing on my model. Previously it was used to either send heat to the engine, or for the HX

Picture 2 is the fan switch.... This is the switch that should turn on some pump to allow the heat exchanger to heat the vechicle via th alde system from the engine. I am reliably informed that this needs to be on to work the system. I hear a click froma solonoid when I press the button, but I hear no pump anywhere.

ANyone know what this is? this is t pieced in to the heating system? I was thinking it could be the pump?

I dont have any blled nipple as seen earlie, but both of these pipes get hot with the engine running.

Lenny HB · Tuesday at 4:28 PM

haganap said:
Please don't make me go to TW

I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Yes it does look like it could ba a pump, hopefully you may have found your problem.

pappajohn · Tuesday at 4:49 PM

haganap.
Paul, try disconnecting one of the pipes at the exchanger (or in the engine bay if you can find the pipes) from the engine, then run the engine for a second.
Water exiting either pipe or exchanger?
It may be an air lock in the engine to exchanger system.

Ignore that Paul, I see you've been through that

GrahamnSue · Tuesday at 5:00 PM

It looks like you might have found the problem.
I would be tempted to speak to Reliance at Chichester if you need further help. They are authorised N&B agents and people seem to rate them.
I would have thought they must have worked on heat exchangers.
I think it is installed by N&B during manufacture as it is not a standard Fiat instal.

pappajohn · Tuesday at 5:02 PM

That's the centrifugal pump paul.
Flow in at the top (as pictured) and out at the side.
Motor at the bottom (as pictured)

It's probably in from engine and out to exchanger.
The return will be a direct pipe from exchanger to engine.

funflair · Tuesday at 5:05 PM

haganap said:
Ok, everyone, thanks for sharing your ideas and offering some help... and Silver-Fox definately not a knob.

So I have wasted a few more hours on the job in hand ensuring that I have tried everything possible.

Just so I can be sure, I know a few of you have offered operating instructions for how you use yours, but I am 99.5% confident I have done this am doing this correctly.

Just to add one thing, it does appear that Martin was right and this might change somethings. When I assumed it was working the other way around, it may not actually be, it appears when the heating is on, it sort of pipes all around the cab anyway, therefore when I start the engine, the fan heater (standard on all models) is already producing heat, but not neccesarily to the engine as the pipes remain cold.

So I have a load of pictures of what I have tested, looked in to... see if its anymore help.. Please don't make me go to TW... All four pipes at th heat exchanger ar warm when the heating is on, but it doesnt travel to the engine.

Picture 1, this is the control panel. The blue radiator button I am now led to believe this actually does nothing. not a thing on my model. Previously it was used to either send heat to the engine, or for the HX

View attachment 977631

Picture 2 is the fan switch.... This is the switch that should turn on some pump to allow the heat exchanger to heat the vechicle via th alde system from the engine. I am reliably informed that this needs to be on to work the system. I hear a click froma solonoid when I press the button, but I hear no pump anywhere.

View attachment 977632

ANyone know what this is? this is t pieced in to the heating system? I was thinking it could be the pump?

View attachment 977633 View attachment 977634

I dont have any blled nipple as seen earlie, but both of these pipes get hot with the engine running.

View attachment 977635

I reckon that is the pump that should pre heat the engine, operated by the blue M symbol on your control panel. Even if you can’t hear it you should feel in buzzing.

bigtwin · Tuesday at 5:17 PM

funflair said:
I reckon that is the pump that should pre heat the engine, operated by the blue M symbol on your control panel. Even if you can’t hear it you should feel in buzzing.

I’d agree.

Ian

jongood · Tuesday at 5:17 PM

funflair said:
I reckon that is the pump that should pre heat the engine, operated by the blue M symbol on your control panel. Even if you can’t hear it you should feel in buzzing.

What Martin said but it wouldnt surprise me if the button by the steering wheel does it.

I'm really surprised by Alde saying that, I wonder if they understood that its connected to your HX?

bigtwin · Tuesday at 5:19 PM

jongood said:
I'm really surprised by Alde saying that, I wonder if they understood that its connected to your HX?

#metoo!

Ian

haganap · Tuesday at 5:20 PM

bigtwin said:
I’d agree.

Ian

Lets assume that is correct. If it was the case, it wouldnt be stopping the heat exchanger working would it? as it would only be operating the engine pre heater... or am I missing something,

haganap · Tuesday at 5:22 PM

jongood said:
What Martin said but it wouldnt surprise me if the button by the steering wheel does it.

I'm really surprised by Alde saying that, I wonder if they understood that its connected to your HX?

bigtwin said:
#metoo!

Ian

i was absoloutly thorough. They were very very good. They went through the whole diagnostics and just said they don't think its an issue with their system and therefore I needed a mechanic

funflair · Tuesday at 5:36 PM

Hi Paul

With a cold engine but warm Alde system when you turn on the Fiat heating does it blow warm?

If you switch the fan switch on the dashboard does anything happen? And if you can’t feel or hear anything does it make any difference to heat from the Fiat blower?

If none of the above do anything does turning on the M switch make any difference?

bigtwin · Tuesday at 5:42 PM

haganap said:
If I run the engine, there is no heat in the pipes at the heat exchanger. (without gas obviously)

funflair said:
I reckon that is the pump that should pre heat the engine, operated by the blue M symbol on your control panel. Even if you can’t hear it you should feel in buzzing.

bigtwin said:
I’d agree.

haganap said:
Lets assume that is correct. If it was the case, it wouldnt be stopping the heat exchanger working would it? as it would only be operating the engine pre heater... or am I missing something,

Agreed, if it was faulty (i.e. not running when it should be (for engine pre-heat)) then it shouldn’t prevent habitation area heating from the engine.
However, if I understand how the system operates, if it were running when the engine was running, then it would be opposing the flow from the water pump resulting in very little, if any, flow to the HX.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Ian

jongood · Tuesday at 5:43 PM

haganap said:
Lets assume that is correct. If it was the case, it wouldnt be stopping the heat exchanger working would it? as it would only be operating the engine pre heater... or am I missing something,

The way mine worked (I think), is that when the valve on the HX was on winter mode, the Alde panel was set to warmer than the ambient temp and set on 1kw electric and the pump switch by the steering wheel was on then as the engine ran it warmed the Alde system. I'm pretty sure it didnt pre warm the engine. But then your is a newer model. can you hear or feel the pump in the photo running?

funflair · Tuesday at 5:47 PM

haganap said:
Lets assume that is correct. If it was the case, it wouldnt be stopping the heat exchanger working would it? as it would only be operating the engine pre heater... or am I missing something,

You are right Paul the action of the pump should not stop the heat exchanger working hot engine to Alde system, I am wondering if there is a fancy diverter valve that is somehow heating the heater matrix but if there was it would need a pump, does that thing that we assume is a pump ever get warm?

JockandRita · Tuesday at 5:52 PM

haganap. Sorry Paul, and I know you are pulling your hair out over this one, but I can't help thinking that this is down to something really simple........................and happy to be corrected if found to be otherwise. ;(

CazPaul said:
We have Alde but no heat exchanger, you can get them retro fitted but I’ve never seen the point. At first I thought I’ll get one but when we started using the system I realised we didn’t need it, we had a similar system in a previous van(Eberspacher engine/water heat while you travel)

Our Alde heats up in 15 minutes on gas plus we have a separate Truma E2400 gas heater.

It may cost you plenty to repair to save you pennies, I’m all for gadgets if there’s a need for them.

haganap said:
one of those things that when you have had it, you woudn't want to be without it.

CazPaul, it's as haganap Paul explains above.

It's a Godsend.

Cheers,

Jock.

funflair · Tuesday at 5:53 PM

bigtwin said:
Agreed, if it was faulty (i.e. not running when it should be (for engine pre-heat)) then it shouldn’t prevent habitation area heating from the engine.
However, if I understand how the system operates, if it were running when the engine was running, then it would be opposing the flow from the water pump resulting in very little, if any, flow to the HX.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Ian

I would assume the flow would go the same way so should still work just not required.

bigtwin · Tuesday at 6:26 PM

funflair said:
I would assume the flow would go the same way so should still work just not required.

It would certainly be more sensible if that were the case.

Ian

bigtwin · Tuesday at 6:29 PM

JockandRita said:
but I can't help thinking that this is down to something really simple

I agree, it would seem that the engine side circuit is not circulating the coolant which takes us back to the possibility that it is, somehow, valved out, be that via a manual, or solenoid/motorised valve. In the latter case, perhaps a fuse blown?

Ian

haganap · Tuesday at 6:37 PM

bigtwin said:
I agree, it would seem that the engine side circuit is not circulating the coolant which takes us back to the possibility that it is, somehow, valved out, be that via a manual, or solenoid/motorised valve. In the latter case, perhaps a fuse blown?

Ian

I've checekd all fuses and they are good. But will check again. My bet (with some help) is that the picture is a thermostat housing with a thermostat in. this is either siezed or not operating therefore preventing the hot water flow to the HX...

haganap · Tuesday at 6:38 PM

Make sure you tune in on Saturday morning for the next episode in " my f87$kng heat exchanger won't work..

bigtwin · Tuesday at 6:44 PM

haganap said:
My bet (with some help) is that the picture is a thermostat housing with a thermostat in.

That could have some credibility, but not if there are any wires coming from that device (which would rather suggest that it’s an impeller type pump).

Ian

haganap · Tuesday at 6:46 PM

bigtwin said:
That could have some credibility, but not if there are any wires coming from that device (which would rather suggest that it’s an impeller type pump).

Ian

well I plan to take it off at the weekend and investigate.... if there is a thermostat in there or not. I think when I was at Polche, Steffan (big boss) said it might be a stuck thermostat or not being triggered.

bigtwin · Tuesday at 6:50 PM

haganap said:
well I plan to take it off at the weekend and investigate....

Sounds like a plan.

Ian

pappajohn · Tuesday at 6:52 PM

Look familiar Paul....
Not identical but It's a centrifugal water pump, not a thermostat.

Silver-Fox · Tuesday at 7:07 PM

funflair said:
I reckon that is the pump that should pre heat the engine, operated by the blue M symbol on your control panel. Even if you can’t hear it you should feel in buzzing.

I’d be surprised if it’s an engine pre heater.

Ours use an Erbespacher that is plumbed into the coolant system and helps heat the engine.
Water is circulated via the engines water pump.

You shouldn’t need a separate pump and these heaters only work when the engine is running.

Again I’m happy to be corrected but I know how our system works on the Merc base.

edit

Not sure if you’ve used the old fashioned method either.

Start engine push all your buttons to make everything work.
Get a long handled screwdriver put it on various pipes etc you think is going to the heat exchanger and stick your ear against the screwdriver handle.

Or a stethoscope if you have one

Silver-Fox · Tuesday at 7:14 PM

haganap said:
Lets assume that is correct. If it was the case, it wouldnt be stopping the heat exchanger working would it? as it would only be operating the engine pre heater... or am I missing something,

Exactly, you need to separate in your head heat exchanger and engine heater.

Totally separate items.

Silver-Fox · Tuesday at 7:21 PM

I would be very surprised if there is a thermostat inline going to the heat exchanger.

You could just take the two pipes off the bit of plastic and join them together.

In doing so by pass the plastic bit and see if both pipes warm up.

this Bl**dy Heat exchanger....

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