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[CAB96]

Getting back to boat installations, from my, albeit second-hand, knowledge of gas explosions in boats is that they disintegrate completely from the waterline up. I was always bemused at the horror of fellow yachtsmen to my petrol inboard engine whilst being completely sanguine about their gas cookers in the boat.

Interesting, but I suppose it makes sense, the hull under the water is under pressure, that above the water is free to expand into the air.

 

[TrudeandDall]

With the emphasis and inverted commas on the word "apparently" Paul.


You and me both Tam, and I'm not one to shirk safety regulations, so my question.is........where is this "legislation", which requires the private owners of gas vapour take off cylinders, to undergo a 10 or 15 x year retest.......bearing in mind as previously mentioned, ie, I have had Calor cylinders in my possession for well over 10 - 15 x years, still under pressure, but where the contents have just not been fully utilised yet, with no recall whatsover from Calor???
Those refillable cylinders in my MH gas locker are like brand new compared to the Calor ones in my home garage.

In previous years I did find some UN legislation, relating to the 10 x year compulsory testing of liquid take off tanks and cylinders, but for use in vehicles for propulsion.

Jock.

Without getting tied up in details Jock (it's complex). UK safety acts and regulations do not specify every single requirement, they utilise within their legal framework various methods to cover the actual detail.
This could be HSE approved codes of practice or in many cases industry codes of practice. So if the UK LPG industry codes of practice specify a 10 year inspection and you do not carry out that inspection subsequently an incident happens then under UK HSE law somebody, probably you, are guilty - unless you can prove otherwise.
We all know that in the UK getting an inspection on a cylinder/tank is not an option, so fitting a new one is pretty much the only way.
Most ordinary people do not know the rules, but an LPG supplier, is duty bound to know and abide by the HSE legal framework. So if they are professional, then they will refuse to fill your out of date or unsafe tank and inform you it needs to be changed or if unsafe - repaired.
And we all know many LPG filling stations will not check the state/date of your equipment. That does not mean that the rules do not apply, that simply raises a question mark against the professional standards set and applied by that LPG company.
As someone who for many years worked closely with the Health and Safety Executive, take it from me, when things go wrong, the HSE are excellent at investigating and very rarely loose when they take legal action.

 

[Dave and Jen]

Inspected at 10 and 20 years, definitely does raise more questions. By whom?

I’m hoping to get to the 20 year inspection it mentions

It's defo 10 years now, then the tank is SCRAP and should be changed ASAP.

 

[CazPaul]

It's defo 10 years now, then the tank is SCRAP and should be changed ASAP.

But what if it is excellent condition, checked and sprayed annually, stored inside when not in use?
It does seem very environmentally bad to be chucking something away in good condition.

 

[Dave and Jen]

Here are some pics of my old tank- fitter said both straps had rusted and broke, it was only still on the van because it was jammed in! Frightening ain't it.
Cheers, Dave.
ps I couldn't check it myself due to disability.

pps I would strongly advise anyone with an underslung tank to get it checked!!!!

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[Dutch 68]

I encounter many experts in my job who tell me they know better, ( customers ) or point out to me that other crane operators did not see a problem, unfortunately for them, the only expert opinion that really counts at that moment in time, is mine , simples.

 

[Bustup15]

If I had taken the advice of every alleged/claimed/so called expert I've encountered in my life I'd be a very poor man and who still have had things fail.


There's always 2 sides to every story and remember you're only getting one of them on here.


Some of the exaggerated comments on here are like reading the daily mail.

Northernraider
Tam - what is this all about - smearing the name of the highly regarded Daily Snail? For some reason I don't understand I've started to get updates from the 'Scottish Sun'. Now to have a discussion about shite newspapers I would start with that one .

 

[Nirvanauk]

Just had mine changed at 10 years. Brilliant job as ever done by Autogas 2000 at Thirsk.

 

[CazPaul]

Here are some pics of my old tank- fitter said both straps had rusted and broke, it was only still on the van because it was jammed in! Frightening ain't it.
Cheers, Dave.
ps I couldn't check it myself due to disability.

pps I would strongly advise anyone with an underslung tank to get it checked!!!!

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Yes that the issue, who checks it? If it’s in great condition should it still be changed? I agree if in poor condition, rusty, poor condition and nearly coming off like yours then change it ASAP.

 

[Dave and Jen]

Just had mine changed at 10 years. Brilliant job as ever done by Autogas 2000 at Thirsk.

That's where I went too, very good did job in 3 hours. He put a bit smaller tank (16ltr )
as the original (20 ltr) was very close to the exhaust.
He also rolls the straps from what looked like 4/5 mm steel.
Dave

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[JockandRita]

Here are some pics of my old tank- fitter said both straps had rusted and broke, it was only still on the van because it was jammed in! Frightening ain't it.
Cheers, Dave.
ps I couldn't check it myself due to disability.

pps I would strongly advise anyone with an underslung tank to get it checked!!!!

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How on earth did your installation manage to get into that state? Ours was factory fitted at Bad Waldsee back in 1999, and was 20 x years old when we sold the MH. Not only did ours have solid thick gauge metal straps with a neoprene lining, but the tank itself was not only cleaned and re coated by myself when required, it was also sold complete with a recent safety inspection and leak test certificate, signed and dated by a very popular LPG installer here in P/boro.
Like me, he was happy with the condition of the installation, and saw no reason to remove and exchange the tank, as he too agreed that the current legislation (at that time), only applied to liquid take off tanks/cylinders for use in propulsion, and not to vapour take off tanks for domestic use.


So, where is this piece of legislation, requiring the total scrapping of perfectly good (vapour take off) cylinders/tanks for domestic use, to be replaced by new at the 10 x year stage?
I just can't help thinking that someone is on to a winner here, but it's certainly not the end user.

Jock.

 

[TrudeandDall]

But what if it is excellent condition, checked and sprayed annually, stored inside when not in use?
It does seem very environmentally bad to be chucking something away in good condition.

But what about the bits that you can't see - the overfill prevention valves etc that are inside the tank or cylinder and that are the very important safety critical bits... Which sadly the UK is not geared up to inspect and service.

 

[Lenny HB]

But what if it is excellent condition, checked and sprayed annually, stored inside when not in use?
It does seem very environmentally bad to be chucking something away in good condition.

But all the valves are supposed to be changed at 10 years, have you done that?

 

[Dave and Jen]

How on earth did your installation manage to get into that state? Ours was factory fitted at Bad Waldsee back in 1999, and was 20 x years old when we sold the MH. Not only did ours have solid thick gauge metal straps with a neoprene lining, but the tank itself was not only cleaned and re coated by myself when required, it was also sold complete with a recent safety inspection and leak test certificate, signed and dated by a very popular LPG installer here in P/boro.
Like me, he was happy with the condition of the installation, and saw no reason to remove and exchange the tank, as he too agreed that the current legislation (at that time), only applied to liquid take off tanks/cylinders for use in propulsion, and not to vapour take off tanks for domestic use.


So, where is this piece of legislation, requiring the total scrapping of perfectly good (vapour take off) cylinders/tanks for domestic use, to be replaced by new at the 10 x year stage?
I just can't help thinking that someone is on to a winner here, but it's certainly not the end user.

Jock.

Hi, Jock, only had the van 6 weeks and have been busy with cleaning, fitting new electrics controller etc it was only found when I had a habitation check when the guy saw the tank he stopped the check until I get it changed. Date on the tank is 2006 so original fitment when the van was made in 2007!
Cheers, Dave.

 

[JockandRita]

Hi, Jock, only had the van 6 weeks and have been busy with cleaning, fitting new electrics controller etc it was only found when I had a habitation check when the guy saw the tank he stopped the check until I get it changed. Date on the tank is 2006 so original fitment when the van was made in 2007!
Cheers, Dave.

Truly unlucky Dave. Did you buy it from a dealer, or privately?
It should never have been sold in that condition TBH. At least with a new installation, you know you are likely to have 10 x years of worry free usage, but like everything else, it'll need preventive maintenance over the years.

Good luck.

Jock.

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[CazPaul]

But all the valves are supposed to be changed at 10 years, have you done that?

No because it’s only 6 years old so far

 

[CazPaul]

But what about the bits that you can't see - the overfill prevention valves etc that are inside the tank or cylinder and that are the very important safety critical bits... Which sadly the UK is not geared up to inspect and service.

The point is you are chucking a very expensive bit of kit away that might be in excellent condition, it looks so from the exterior.

 

[Dave and Jen]

Truly unlucky Dave. Did you buy it from a dealer, or privately?
It should never have been sold in that condition TBH. At least with a new installation, you know you are likely to have 10 x years of worry free usage, but like everything else, it'll need preventive maintenance over the years.

Good luck.

Jock.

I won't go into details but I am in "negotiations" with the guy.
Dave

 

[JockandRita]

I won't go into details but I am in "negotiations" with the guy.
Dave

I am pleased to know that Dave.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[CazPaul]

But all the valves are supposed to be changed at 10 years, have you done that?

The point I am trying to make Lenny is if the tank is to changed at 10 years regardless it’s no point looking after it, keeping up with regular checks/spraying etc

Any Motorhome and accessory needs looking after, I have seen even the most expensive marques of Motorhome in shocking condition, Clou Liners etc

If it’s unsafe I’m fine with that but it’s just guesswork that’s all at the minute,JockandRita know what I mean,they also look after their Motorhomes and accessories

So if someone who doesn’t check or maintain anything at all and let it get in terrible condition I can understand it being replaced, but not for someone who maintains thoroughly. It doesn’t seem right and apart from being a possible waste if money it’s surely bad for the environment too, chucking a perfectly good tank away.

I wonder what would happen to our tank if replaced and looks in excellent condition, will it be destroyed or will it be sold/ checked/refurbished etc.

It’s a minefield.

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[JockandRita]

I wonder what would happen to our tank if replaced and looks in excellent condition, will it be destroyed or will it be sold/ checked/refurbished etc.

Paul, my money is on it being checked over, purged, pressure tested, re valved, date stamped for another 10 x years....................................and then sold as new.

Jock.

 

[Stoosal]

Very complicated area and even more difficult to try and find information as to when a cylinder/system is safe or not.

So……..Perhaps an expert can keep me right here but…….

The system appears to be based on codes of practice written by the industry themselves based on their principals rather than an enforceable regulation re manufacture of cylinders/systems. The HSE state that a written system must be in place for lpg systems. I’m unclear as to which types of lpg systems this applies to ie a vehicle under ADR regs or a motorhome or companies such as Calor to every user group?

So each company could write their own version for a safe system of use?

The checking of such systems is also based on a code of practice regarding who is a competent person for conducting a check. The industry have then decided that they don’t want to offer the services of a competent person to check these cylinders to certain groups of users (private cylinder owners), presumably on commercial grounds. The decision as to a safe or unsafe cylinder is based on a code of practice rather than a definitive ‘law’ which says it is or isn’t?

So far as I can see there is no ‘law’ which states definitively that after ten years from date of manufacture that a cylinder/cylinder valve must be replaced or checked for serviceable condition. That decision is based on industry advice by way of their own code of practice. That then determines whether somebody who wishes to adhere to the code of practice will permit a system user to fill the cylinder at their premises?

Looking at the code of practice and exemptions it appears to suggest that systems used for heating or cooking in a car derived vehicle are exempt……from posts I’ve read previously this is contradicted to state that such systems aren’t exempt. Ive found the code quite heavy going so I’m a bit lost at the exemptions part.

It’s very confusing to anybody outwith a very technical group but it would be useful to have a determination as to whether a motorhome related lpg system is ‘illegal’ after a set period or if it’s a recommendation to replace or inspect?

I compare it to a tyre at a mot. Although industry guidance may recommend replacement at a set period, say ten years, if the mot tester is happy no cracks, leaks, tread in compliance with law etc then it will pass the mot.

Confused…..? I certainly am!

Hopefully those more knowledgeable than me can give a more definitive answer…..please!

 

[JockandRita]

Confused…..? I certainly am!

Hopefully those more knowledgeable than me can give a more definitive answer…..please!

I know I am, and thanks for your post, putting those queries and points over far better than I could.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[dunnah01]

Probably an easier question is can I self certify my own cylinders and if not why not - doh that's two questions but you get the idea

 

[meanders]

Legally you can if you are 'competent'. However, if something really untoward happens be prepared to explain to a court how you were competent, and be prepared to have that questioned especially if what happens indicates you may not be as competent as you thought. Your call.

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[TrudeandDall]

Very complicated area and even more difficult to try and find information as to when a cylinder/system is safe or not.

So……..Perhaps an expert can keep me right here but…….

The system appears to be based on codes of practice written by the industry themselves based on their principals rather than an enforceable regulation re manufacture of cylinders/systems. The HSE state that a written system must be in place for lpg systems. I’m unclear as to which types of lpg systems this applies to ie a vehicle under ADR regs or a motorhome or companies such as Calor to every user group?

So each company could write their own version for a safe system of use?

The checking of such systems is also based on a code of practice regarding who is a competent person for conducting a check. The industry have then decided that they don’t want to offer the services of a competent person to check these cylinders to certain groups of users (private cylinder owners), presumably on commercial grounds. The decision as to a safe or unsafe cylinder is based on a code of practice rather than a definitive ‘law’ which says it is or isn’t?

So far as I can see there is no ‘law’ which states definitively that after ten years from date of manufacture that a cylinder/cylinder valve must be replaced or checked for serviceable condition. That decision is based on industry advice by way of their own code of practice. That then determines whether somebody who wishes to adhere to the code of practice will permit a system user to fill the cylinder at their premises?

Looking at the code of practice and exemptions it appears to suggest that systems used for heating or cooking in a car derived vehicle are exempt……from posts I’ve read previously this is contradicted to state that such systems aren’t exempt. Ive found the code quite heavy going so I’m a bit lost at the exemptions part.

It’s very confusing to anybody outwith a very technical group but it would be useful to have a determination as to whether a motorhome related lpg system is ‘illegal’ after a set period or if it’s a recommendation to replace or inspect?

I compare it to a tyre at a mot. Although industry guidance may recommend replacement at a set period, say ten years, if the mot tester is happy no cracks, leaks, tread in compliance with law etc then it will pass the mot.

Confused…..? I certainly am!

Hopefully those more knowledgeable than me can give a more definitive answer…..please!

Exactly - HSE do not define every detail in thier Acts and Regulations, that would be an impossible task for them. It's also unlikely but still possible that as a private individual you would be prosecuted for your acts and/or omissions in respect of adherence to such Regulations.
The people who are in the HSE firing line are the professionals who fit, inspect and service your LPG systems, such as Autogas 2000. They are working under the Health and Safety at Work Act. So when you take your van in for a habitation check, simply refill a cylinder/tank or whatever, the professionals are duty bound to know and work to the relevant Industry Standards, that in turn are used by the HSE as part of their legal framework. Ingnoring these codes and standards is UNLAWFUL for the professional companies.
I also agree that wading through the codes of practice etc is heavy and often complicated work, especially for the layman. Gone are the days when I earned my keep as a safety practitioner in the petroleum and gas industry. I'm much happier wondering how much SOC my battery has and if the solar will replenish it tomorrow.

 

[enark]

Getting back to boat installations, from my, albeit second-hand, knowledge of gas explosions in boats is that they disintegrate completely from the waterline up. I was always bemused at the horror of fellow yachtsmen to my petrol inboard engine whilst being completely sanguine about their gas cookers in the boat.

I Always turn on at the bottle, make the brews, then off at the bottle.

As well as explosive nature, LPG is also a great oxygen depleter thats heavier than air, especially effective in a water/air tight hull of a yacht…

 

[JockandRita]

Probably an easier question is can I self certify my own cylinders and if not why not - doh that's two questions but you get the idea

It would be a damn site easier still, if there was a law banning the use of LPG tanks and cylinders over their 10/15/20 x year life. Get caught and it's a hefty fine. Job done. Easy peasy...............but life's not that simple, is it.

Jock.

 

[TrudeandDall]

It would be a damn site easier still, if there was a law banning the use of LPG tanks and cylinders over their 10/15/20 x year life. Get caught and it's a hefty fine. Job done. Easy peasy...............but life's not that simple, is it.

Jock.

That's way too simple Jock and the HSE never do simple

 

[JockandRita]

That's way too simple Jock and the HSE never do simple

So we need to get rid then, and get someone in there with a bit of common sense instead.

Cheers,

Jock.

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