Rally Shepton Motorhome Show - September 2023

[ChrisSue]

You know you're getting old when.........a Quo tribute act is too loud!

To be fair with my hearing aids amplifying everything I could hear a thing at the bar

 

[gpat]

‘Crappy’ 80s rock show was absolutely brilliant, a very accomplished band. Left State of Quo after 10 mins before my ears started bleeding!

Maybe I was a bit unfair. It's a decent show but we don't like 80s rock to start with and we saw them last year. Same set, so we made a quick decision to leave and go see The little Eagle. They were amazing. So funny and self deprecating. Brummie humour at it's best.

It was a bit disappointing that the venue ran out of white wine. That's after running out of proper beer in the afternoon and hurriedly bringing in some London Pride. I think whoever was sorting the drinks underestimated the ability of us to drink it. Hopefully they will be restocked today.

 

[meanders]

Oddly enough, we have been to three or four Quo concerts and the levels have always been fine. They always used first class sound engineers.

Warners own sound engineers are responsible for what comes out of the main speakers even if the band have there own stage mixing. Back in 2017, I wrote a Ietter of complaint and received the following response:

I took your complaint to our sound crew and they confirm that during the set by Slade their system engineer was running a SMAART analysis program using a Class 2 measurement microphone calibrated on site. The loudest portion of the set was measured at 103 dB(A) on a 3 minute average, the rest of the show was some way below this level. The engineer mixing for Slade was contracted directly to the band and therefore made his own judgements regarding mix decisions and equalisation which may have affected the perceived loudness (which is distinct from the measurable SPL level) compared to the operation of our own engineers.

Regarding the duty of care to customers the Health and Safety Executive say “The [Control of Noise at Work] Regulations do not apply to members of the public. When attending concerts they are making an informed choice to do so. They attend relatively infrequently when compared to workers. However, members of the public can and do buy their own earplugs.”

I took four things from this.
1. They use a calibrated SPL meter way better than mine. I did not have mine with me, but from experience, I dispute the 103dBA figure. I have watched on many occasions since and have never seen anyone checking the levels during the performance.
2. Readings very much depend on where the readings are taken. If they are doing them at the control desk, this is always the furthest point from the source. They should be taken at many places across the venue as the flown arrays they use can give some strange dispersal patterns thereby generating hot spots. There seemed to be no recognition of that effect.
3. How do they calibrate the meter on site? It can only be done in a proper lab. I took it that they EQ'd it on site which is something quite different.
4. As audience members, Warners simply abdicate all responsibility and din't care. No warnings, No ear plugs on sale, so nothing.

I did not challenge it further at the time, but generally levels were noticeably reduced.

Incidentally, HSE do give the following recommendations: Note well the final line!

Unlike workers, there is no specific legislation setting noise limits for the audience exposure to noise. However, HSE strongly recommends that the A-weighted equivalent continuous sound level over the duration of the event (Event LAeq) in any part of the audience area should not exceed 107 dB, and the C-weighted peak sound pressure level should not exceed 140 dB.

The above sound-level exposure values are for the whole of the audience area. For practical purposes, it is usual for audience sound-level exposure to be monitored close to the front of house sound mixing position. For the largest outdoor and indoor venues, this can be up to 75m from the front-of-stage barrier position where the audience sound-level exposure can be significantly higher than at the front-of-house sound mixing position.

Make sure that during the sound check the difference in sound level between the front-of-house sound mixing position and the front-of-stage barrier – and, where delay / distribution stacks are in use, at the barrier for each delay / distribution stack – is established. This will then allow a guideline sound pressure level for the front-of-house sound mixing position to be determined that will restrict the whole of the audience sound-level exposure to below an Event LAeq of 107 dB, and C-weighted peak sound pressure levels to below 140 dB.

Where practical, the audience should not be allowed within 3m of any loudspeaker. This can be achieved by the use of approved safety barriers and dedicated stewards, wearing appropriate hearing protection. Where this is not practical, the overall music sound levels will have to be modified so that people closer than 3m to the loudspeakers are not exposed to an Event LAeq of more than 107 dB or C-weighted peak sound pressure levels of more than 140 dB. Under no circumstances should the audience and loudspeaker separation distance be less than 1m.

Where the Event LAeq is likely to exceed 96 dB, advise the audience of the risk to their hearing in advance, eg either on tickets, advertising or notices at entry points.

The more people who walk and then complain, the better.

I've been heard to say before that, many musicians, and some sound engineers, are nearly deaf. Having destroyed their hearing, they seem determined to destroy the hearing of everyone else!

Just my two penneth from afar.

Robin

 

[gpat]

Oddly enough, we have been to three or four Quo concerts and the levels have always been fine. They always used first class sound engineers.

Warners own sound engineers are responsible for what comes out of the main speakers even if the band have there own stage mixing. Back in 2017, I wrote a Ietter of complaint and received the following response:

I took four things from this.
1. They use a calibrated SPL meter way better than mine. I did not have mine with me, but from experience, I dispute the 103dBA figure. I have watched on many occasions since and have never seen anyone checking the levels during the performance.
2. Readings very much depend on where the readings are taken. If they are doing them at the control desk, this is always the furthest point from the source. They should be taken at many places across the venue as the flown arrays they use can give some strange dispersal patterns thereby generating hot spots. There seemed to be no recognition of that effect.
3. How do they calibrate the meter on site? It can only be done in a proper lab. I took it that they EQ'd it on site which is something quite different.
4. As audience members, Warners simply abdicate all responsibility and din't care. No warnings, No ear plugs on sale, so nothing.

I did not challenge it further at the time, but generally levels were noticeably reduced.

Incidentally, HSE do give the following recommendations: Note well the final line!

The more people who walk and then complain, the better.

I've been heard to say before that, many musicians, and some sound engineers, are nearly deaf. Having destroyed their hearing, they seem determined to destroy the hearing of everyone else!

Just my two penneth from afar.

Robin

I'm afraid I disagree with you. Rock music is meant to be loud. If you only go to concerts infrequently it won't harm your hearing.

IMO there is nothing worse than going to see a band and it's too quiet. We went to see Neil Diamond 2 years ago at the Genting. It was rubbish. Could hear people singing behind us.

H&S going mad again.

 

[carolyn]

Saw Status Quo at Bournemouth Wintergardens when I was 16, ears were ringing for a couple of days. Felt giddy as well as I recall. Bloody great.

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[JJ]

If the air around you isn't vibrating then Metallica's sound people have the volume too low... (has never happened at the many concerts I have attended).

JJ

 

[seasideBill]

I love tribute acts and they always have some good ‘uns here Looking forward to Dire Straits & Fleetwood Mac.
Enjoyed ‘Total Who Show’, particularly my fave song Baba O’riley and their cover of Hendrix’s HeyJoe
Apart from Quo, volume has been about right

 

[meanders]

H&S going mad again.

Sorry, I'll agree that we disagree. I have been on stage or in studio with some very loud bands including T-Rex and Deep Purple. All those were very controlled environments getting the end to ear sound as pure sine wave as possible as the ear drums cope better with that. It's distortion, harmonic distortion and harmonic flutter that really cause injury as well as absolute sound level.

Unfortunately, the drive to greater power output in the 80's and 90's with class D amplifiers using digital pulse width modulation came at the expense of a big increase in harmonic distortion, plus the 80's fad of deliberately adding distortion to guitar outputs. This means clarity falls away, to which of course the answer is to increase the levels further.

More recently, all sound gear has moved from analogue to digital. The effect of this is that the sound gets chopped up into tiny bits, transported and reassembled. Now we could talk sampling rates all day, but the underlying truth is that the final sound will never have the same clarity of waveform as the original sound. Yes the higher the rate, the less the effect, but it's still there, and your ears drums are trying to follow it.

I have also seen bleeding ears, babies and children exposed to stupidly high levels when we have known for years that it causes pain and permanent hearing loss. These are medical facts.

You may not care about your hearing, but speak to any consultant in the field and they will tell you of ever increasing population numbers needing hearing aids in their 50's.

It's not just about loudness, it's also the quality of that sound.

 

[carolyn]

Sorry, I'll agree that we disagree. I have been on stage or in studio with some very loud bands including T-Rex and Deep Purple. All those were very controlled environments getting the end to ear sound as pure sine wave as possible as the ear drums cope better with that. It's distortion, harmonic distortion and harmonic flutter that really cause injury as well as absolute sound level.

Unfortunately, the drive to greater power output in the 80's and 90's with class D amplifiers using digital pulse width modulation came at the expense of a big increase in harmonic distortion, plus the 80's fad of deliberately adding distortion to guitar outputs. This means clarity falls away, to which of course the answer is to increase the levels further.

More recently, all sound gear has moved from analogue to digital. The effect of this is that the sound gets chopped up into tiny bits, transported and reassembled. Now we could talk sampling rates all day, but the underlying truth is that the final sound will never have the same clarity of waveform as the original sound. Yes the higher the rate, the less the effect, but it's still there, and your ears drums are trying to follow it.

I have also seen bleeding ears, babies and children exposed to stupidly high levels when we have known for years that it causes pain and permanent hearing loss. These are medical facts.

You may not care about your hearing, but speak to any consultant in the field and they will tell you of ever increasing population numbers needing hearing aids in their 50's.

It's not just about loudness, it's also the quality of that sound.

I hasten to add that my listening to very loud Rock music was brief and I have got away with it. Nick ignored my years of nagging about the risks and hasn’t. He carried on when the risks were well known, stupid. A bit like smoking I suppose although he did stop that

 

[stevewagner]

Been to over 500 concerts in 55 years mostly rock (and still go). I have to wear hearings because of the exposure but don’t mind one bit. I always knew the risk but the joy far outweighs it for me. Looking forward to Roger Waters and Muse next month - more decibels than you can point a stick at!

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[meanders]

I have to wear hearings because of the exposure but don’t mind one bit.

Your choice and I respect that. However we didn't know the impact of these things all those years ago. In the same way in theatres they put signs up warning of strobes and pyrotechnic's. I still believe concert organisers and the like should be giving out warnings. If people choose to ignore them, that's fine, but sooner or later someone will sue.... then watch the notices go up!

 

[gpat]

Sorry, I'll agree that we disagree. I have been on stage or in studio with some very loud bands including T-Rex and Deep Purple. All those were very controlled environments getting the end to ear sound as pure sine wave as possible as the ear drums cope better with that. It's distortion, harmonic distortion and harmonic flutter that really cause injury as well as absolute sound level.

Unfortunately, the drive to greater power output in the 80's and 90's with class D amplifiers using digital pulse width modulation came at the expense of a big increase in harmonic distortion, plus the 80's fad of deliberately adding distortion to guitar outputs. This means clarity falls away, to which of course the answer is to increase the levels further.

More recently, all sound gear has moved from analogue to digital. The effect of this is that the sound gets chopped up into tiny bits, transported and reassembled. Now we could talk sampling rates all day, but the underlying truth is that the final sound will never have the same clarity of waveform as the original sound. Yes the higher the rate, the less the effect, but it's still there, and your ears drums are trying to follow it.

I have also seen bleeding ears, babies and children exposed to stupidly high levels when we have known for years that it causes pain and permanent hearing loss. These are medical facts.

You may not care about your hearing, but speak to any consultant in the field and they will tell you of ever increasing population numbers needing hearing aids in their 50's.

It's not just about loudness, it's also the quality of that sound.

I'm not advocating stupid noise levels that makes one's ears bleed or harms baby's. I'm talking about a good level that is not awfully too low.

For example the money for nothing act tonight started too low. The sound guys addressed it quickly and it was fine.

So. In conclusion. Life is about fun. Without extremes..

 

[dabhand]

As someone who’s ears bled from the hundreds (if not more) of rock concerts that I’ve attended, what did you say Robin?

Keep live music loud!! Or sit there and listen to your phone (utter poo)

 

[meanders]

As someone who’s ears bled from the hundreds (if not more) of rock concerts that I’ve attended, what did you say Robin?

Keep live music loud!! Or sit there and listen to your phone (utter poo)

Laughing at your joke Simon, not your hearing problems friend. I don't listen to my phone and never have - Highly compressed MP3's and delivered through the tiniest of tweeters. Horrid.

I don't suppose you and I will ever agree on this point, but we both have a respect for music. I wish I had your musical talent and voice.

 

[seasideBill]

I'm not advocating stupid noise levels that makes one's ears bleed or harms baby's. I'm talking about a good level that is not awfully too low.

For example the money for nothing act tonight started too low. The sound guys addressed it quickly and it was fine.

So. In conclusion. Life is about fun. Without extremes..

Sound level was fine, shame about the act! What followed was excellent tho’

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[gpat]

Sound level was fine, shame about the act! What followed was excellent tho’

Yeah. They were not the best you are right. The sax guy was good and knopfler looked a bit like knopfler but looks were where the similarity ended

Contrast the old guy on lead guitar for the Animals. Boy he can play.

The Meat Loaf show was great too. Tongue in cheek. He sounded more like the real meat loaf than the real meat loaf. We loved it

 

[seasideBill]

Yeah. They were not the best you are right. The sax guy was good and knopfler looked a bit like knopfler but looks were where the similarity ended

Contrast the old guy on lead guitar for the Animals. Boy he can play.

The Meat Loaf show was great too. Tongue in cheek. He sounded more like the real meat loaf than the real meat loaf. We loved it

They murdered ‘Brothers in Arms’ - unforgivable!
Tempo was all wrong, they seemed in a hurry to get through the set.
‘House of the Rising Sun’ - wow!
Not really a meat loaf fan but set was amazing, very slick and amazing energy. Loved it.

 

[gpat]

They murdered ‘Brothers in Arms’ - unforgivable!
Tempo was all wrong, they seemed in a hurry to get through the set.
‘House of the Rising Sun - wow!
Not really a meat loaf fan but set was amazing, very slick and amazing energy. Loved it.

You see we can agree after all

I thought the sound levels were perfect. Just right. No ringing in my ears this morning.

I have seen pub acts make a better job of sultans of swing.i thought the drummer wanted to be the star of the show, putting in fills and rolls that didn't exist and then being off tempo in the easy bits.