Roof solar is just a waste of money….

[Northernraider]

Would have been really stuck in 1st lockdown with no solar. We spent 3 months wilding in a French forest and had to sign all sorts of paperwork to move the van anywhere. Luckily the solar allowed us to live a pleasant life even it was a bit monotonous.

What!! Even with all those trees

 

[Northernraider]

In the summer or abroad
Out of curiosity, how much did your set up cost?

If you do it the right way .

Frankia bought for £37k sold for £41k
Hymer bought £18k sold £27.5k
Ivevo bought £3k sold £5.9k
Euramobil bought £26k sold £32.5k
Mobilvetta bought £10k .....

All have had solar, none used ehu

6 Years fulltime

 

[RedFrame]

But the ops point was that a b2b would probably do a similar job year round wheras the solar would struggle in part of the year or in shade. I think he's probably got a point if b2b were around first would everyone be going out fitting solar which when you think about it is much more suited to a caravans use

I wasn't responding to the OP, I indicated this by quoting L'Hobo's question regarding costs...

Cheers
Red

Cheers
Red

 

[MisterB]

You already have batteries so they don't come into the equation, I've just checked online and you can have a 400W panel with victron controller for £300, call it £350 with cables, mountings and fuses/breakers.

We spent two weeks in Germany a couple of years ago, had a lovely time and spent around £26 on Stellplatz fees, I recon the solar on our last van pretty much paid for itself in just that holiday.

Cheers
Red.

i bought my panels second hand, came with some cabling, so 200w of solar (fitted myself) came to around £170 when you add adhesive. also picked up a voltronic 250w mmpt when one became available at a good price and sold my 165w one.
BUT i also toured Brittany earlier this year (late April) for just over a week, travelling virtually every day, WITHOUT any solar, WITHOUT a B2B, just a 300Ah Fogstar lithium and the standard alternator, with a 2kw inverter using the kettle and microwave whenever we wanted to, and went down to around 30% of battery capacity at its lowest (from memory). As i suggested on an earlier post if something didnt work for us, then we would change it, so we added a bigger inverter and on that basis, decided to add some solar to hopefully keep the battery topped up and prevent it going below that 30% (at which point i started to be more conservative about using 240v appliances - but i also added the solar because i got it at the right price. I also picked up very cheaply a 150w foldable solar panel, which i need to fit external connectors to the van to simplify connection, to overcome (hopefully) any shading issues that may occur.

 

[EuroTrotters]

We have always benefitted from Solar and Love it almost as much as our Re-fillable gas bottles.

Did I mention the part about it keeping our 3 batteries topped up without having to worry about hooking uo to EHU on the Drive

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[Peter and Julie]

Ahhh, dare I update? Maybe via the original thread which I might ask Jim to switch back on.

In a nutshell it all fell apart. Principle reason was the required investment just kept going up and the borrowing costs have become too high.

As I continually posted, the gypsies could come and go as they pleased, the infestation was chronic, critical maintenance had been skipped, waste inc human waste dumped on site and loads more (like the asbestos toilets). We just could not operate a site in an unsafe, unsecure and unhygienic way and just to correct this was going to be €150k we hadn’t previously considered.

When we started to suspect the owner was faking his own positive reviews to counter all the genuine negative ones it was a bit of a straw and camels back thing.

I will copy this to the original thread and expand on it a little when all the dust has settled, legalities are dealt with and we’ve recovered what we can from the notaire.

Much time, energy, effort and money wasted yes, but probably a bullet dodged. We did the right thing to insist on staying on the site to see it for what it really was. So the hunt for a new life is back on, and we are currently looking hard at a lovely little site in the Dordogne. So many Brits here it fees like home.

I'd go for the noodie campsite that ready to go! Just my thoughts though! With an 18 to 30 age limit. Apart from verified MHF members of course

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

Have 420ah of Lithium and I think the lowest they have gone is about half discharged and that was probably with the air fryer sucking away for a bit!

Do not plug mine in at home now it just gets parked up and left although when I first got it I use to plug in all the time

Solar panels have been washed once when a chap came to wash and polish last April and that’s about it.

We probably do about 1/3rd sites the rest Stelplatz and half the time I could not be bothered to plug in when EHU is included
Don’t think I would be running my engine every day to top up the batteries though as I know when away when people leave engines running for ages it winds me up you get a dozen doing that on a site every day

Forgot to say that we also use our van all year round not just sunny and warm days

 

[L' Hobo]

You already have batteries so they don't come into the equation, I've just checked online and you can have a 400W panel with victron controller for £300, call it £350 with cables, mountings and fuses/breakers.

We spent two weeks in Germany a couple of years ago, had a lovely time and spent around £26 on Stellplatz fees, I recon the solar on our last van pretty much paid for itself in just that holiday.

Cheers
Red.

but batteries do come into the equation because, as I have read on here, to get the FULL benefits of Solar, one needs Lithium batteries and they cost £750 - £1000 each!

 

[L' Hobo]

If you do it the right way .

Frankia bought for £37k sold for £41k
Hymer bought £18k sold £27.5k
Ivevo bought £3k sold £5.9k
Euramobil bought £26k sold £32.5k
Mobilvetta bought £10k .....

All have had solar, none used ehu

6 Years fulltime

Looks like you should be a Motorhome salesman and, NO, I don't want to buy the Mobivetta for £12,500!

 

[dunnah01]

What!! Even with all those trees

Luckily we could move the Moho 10yds to a clear area to get enough solar to last us until the next charge and then back again into the trees

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[dawsey]

Sounds to me a clobbered up system that can greatly be improved. The poxy combined solar b2b for the start, and panels wired into 2S 3P to avoid 6mm warm wires. Heat is wasted power.
Then look into tilting as well, or a poratable to supplement in winter. Solar does work in winter, not brilliant, but if you adjust/adapt a little to the conditions, you can make a success of it.

I assure you my system is not ‘clobbered up’ or ‘poxy’.

I should have known someone would leap on the warm wire comment. Wires do get warm with current flowing continuously. A short open clipped 6mm CSA run is enough for an absolute peak of 25-27A from the panels, go look at the IEE tables, as I did.

I’m not sure why you would describe the Renogy 25/50 integrated B2B/MPPT as ‘poxy’. I have found it generally well
designed, robust and reliable, flexible too as you can manually make it charge at 25Afrom alternator + x amps from the solar array or the full 50A just from the alternator just by isolating the solar array. it’s been in use continuously for nearly a year and I have only found one slight issue. I learned that it needs good ventilation and to be mounted direct to a metal surface to aid its own thermal management. MPPT charge controllers are big because they contain power transformers (like an invertor), and these have an inherant conversion inefficiency, the loss to heat is about 5-10% I’d guess, the literature (idealised numbers) only suggests a little more, a 96% peak efficiency. A cheap bang bang PWM charger doesn’t have these losses - that’s why they are so much smaller. Lest again being accused of long winded, for anyone still awake and interested I leave it to Brains or Grommet to explain why despite having a conversion loss an MPPT charger is overall more efficient than a PWM at capturing sunlight….

Maybe Raul can explain..? or maybe not, as it’s all just ‘poxy’

The slight issue is that when working hard, handling the full 50A either combined or just alternator it overheats due to the above power conversion losses and it then self regulates, which is actually a very useful self protection design feature, however it does mean you can be down to 35A after an hour in hot weather if it isn’t fitted properly. I remounted direct to metal to provide more of a heat sink and it improved.

Thanks to all those who have read and commented. Grommet was correct maybe the title was a bit off, though it still seems many have understood the core point that roof solar might not be always be the optimum solution for everyone with rapidly evolving B2B technology and the ability of lithiums to very rapidly recharge. It’s a different world to lead acid, where chemistry is ideally suited to the slow charge of solar.

Of course a panel or two on the roof, given the low cost and especially if you fit yourself with a cheap PWM remains a bit of a no brainer, why wouldn’t you avail yourself of something that’s free…

Also if you are used to being a low energy user, you probably don’t need anything else.

My intent was to build a system that was completely self sufficient, never needing hook up, but capable of powering anything. The mrs wanted to be able to use fridge, hairdryer, microwave, coffee machine etc, I wanted full home cinema and hi fi and with high power amp and subwoofer. I promised I’d build a system with no compromise, permanent 240V, and we could be high energy users.

The post was about what I learned as regards having all that solar on the roof from a year of all season ‘field trials’. For the reasons outlined it just doesn’t work as well as hoped. I expected to have to run the engine in winter, not a problem when you are moving a lot, but to avoid being cooked alive in full continental sun and with 35C in the shade we had to take cover and plug in EHU while stationary in summer and I’d absolutely hoped to avoid that. We are not on holiday and needed to be able to stay cool enough to work, to think.

The lesson I learned, as some have rightly homed in on is that to maximise solar capture (and stay under the tree, and never need to run engine or hook up) we really need a remote array that can always be pointed at the sun. If you’ve read Andy Weir’s fantastic book ‘The Martian’ or seen the movie, it would be something like that

 

[SpeedyDux]

Ahhh, dare I update? Maybe via the original thread which I might ask Jim to switch back on.

In a nutshell it all fell apart. Principle reason was the required investment just kept going up and the borrowing costs have become too high.

As I continually posted, the gypsies could come and go as they pleased, the infestation was chronic, critical maintenance had been skipped, waste inc human waste dumped on site and loads more (like the asbestos toilets). We just could not operate a site in an unsafe, unsecure and unhygienic way and just to correct this was going to be €150k we hadn’t previously considered.

When we started to suspect the owner was faking his own positive reviews to counter all the genuine negative ones it was a bit of a straw and camels back thing.

I will copy this to the original thread and expand on it a little when all the dust has settled, legalities are dealt with and we’ve recovered what we can from the notaire.

Much time, energy, effort and money wasted yes, but probably a bullet dodged. We did the right thing to insist on staying on the site to see it for what it really was. So the hunt for a new life is back on, and we are currently looking hard at a lovely little site in the Dordogne. So many Brits here it fees like home.

As a Brit I don't rate the climate much in Dordogneshire (that the French call le Perigord). Great in summer but freezing in winter. If you want an all-year-round site look elsewhere. Choose a place with a Mediterranean type of climate. Avoid anywhere that has steep pitched roofs.

 

[SpeedyDux]

That was really the point.

I don’t think the winter stuff anyone would disagree with, but in summer I hadn’t fully understood just how hot the van would get when staying stationary, and leaving it in full sun to collect all the energy we need to run the fridge, microwave, computers, stereo, TV, extractors, bit of A/C etc. We are quite power hungry. So yes, we went and hid under trees to stay cooler and of course the solar panels produced nothing. Bugger.

It got me thinking about how much value the panels really added when on the van roof, and what I would do differently if I was doing it again. It would likely be a remote array, but that would come with its own problems of course.

I see a conflict between your high energy lifestyle and desire for shade in hot weather.

I prefer to pitch under trees during a heatwave, otherwise the PVC becomes an oven and takes a long time to cool again at night. It's really a big tin can. Your OP left me thinking that roof solar would be better for spring and autumn. I don't have it anyway.

 

[tonyidle]

but batteries do come into the equation because, as I have read on here, to get the FULL benefits of Solar, one needs Lithium batteries and they cost £750 - £1000 each!

Or in my case £500 for 210Ah.

 

[Two on Tour]

but batteries do come into the equation because, as I have read on here, to get the FULL benefits of Solar, one needs Lithium batteries and they cost £750 - £1000 each!

Built my own 290aH lithium for less than £600, and that was couple of years ago when prices were higher.

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[Carpmart]

Me as well, it pains me to be wasting all the solar power we have as by about dinnertime the batteries are full and all the afternoon sun is just wasted.

Agreed, was frustrated wasting the solar opportunity so I’ve fitted a 10l water tank with a 12v 200w element so we get free hot water from excess solar.

 

[dawsey]

for anyone thinking it wasn't true, then you're wrong! I visited the site twice...

Shhhh!

Dave, some folks heads might explode if they are made to accept that my sole purpose in life isn’t just to wind them up

 

[dawsey]

As a Brit I don't rate the climate much in Dordogneshire (that the French call le Perigord). Great in summer but freezing in winter. If you want an all-year-round site look elsewhere. Choose a place with a Mediterranean type of climate. Avoid anywhere that has steep pitched roofs.

Yeah you have a point. We were there in winter and it got down to minus six.
Also here now, on a site we are looking at in Green Perigord. Yesterday was 39C in the shade (under the tree). When in full sun the roof of the camper can hit 60C.

 

[Northernraider]

but batteries do come into the equation because, as I have read on here, to get the FULL benefits of Solar, one needs Lithium batteries and they cost £750 - £1000 each!

Not true . I've never had lithium batteries


Yet

 

[Northernraider]

Looks like you should be a Motorhome salesman and, NO, I don't want to buy the Mobivetta for £12,500!

12.5k aye right lol

It owes me more than that now

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[Northernraider]

I assure you my system is not ‘clobbered up’ or ‘poxy’.

I should have known someone would leap on the warm wire comment. Wires do get warm with current flowing continuously. A short open clipped 6mm CSA run is enough for an absolute peak of 25-27A from the panels, go look at the IEE tables, as I did.

I’m not sure why you would describe the Renogy 25/50 integrated B2B/MPPT as ‘poxy’. I have found it generally well
designed, robust and reliable, flexible too as you can manually make it charge at 25Afrom alternator + x amps from the solar array or the full 50A just from the alternator just by isolating the solar array. it’s been in use continuously for nearly a year and I have only found one slight issue. I learned that it needs good ventilation and to be mounted direct to a metal surface to aid its own thermal management. MPPT charge controllers are big because they contain power transformers (like an invertor), and these have an inherant conversion inefficiency, the loss to heat is about 5-10% I’d guess, the literature (idealised numbers) only suggests a little more, a 96% peak efficiency. A cheap bang bang PWM charger doesn’t have these losses - that’s why they are so much smaller. Lest again being accused of long winded, for anyone still awake and interested I leave it to Brains or Grommet to explain why despite having a conversion loss an MPPT charger is overall more efficient than a PWM at capturing sunlight….

Maybe Raul can explain..? or maybe not, as it’s all just ‘poxy’

The slight issue is that when working hard, handling the full 50A either combined or just alternator it overheats due to the above power conversion losses and it then self regulates, which is actually a very useful self protection design feature, however it does mean you can be down to 35A after an hour in hot weather if it isn’t fitted properly. I remounted direct to metal to provide more of a heat sink and it improved.

Thanks to all those who have read and commented. Grommet was correct maybe the title was a bit off, though it still seems many have understood the core point that roof solar might not be always be the optimum solution for everyone with rapidly evolving B2B technology and the ability of lithiums to very rapidly recharge. It’s a different world to lead acid, where chemistry is ideally suited to the slow charge of solar.

Of course a panel or two on the roof, given the low cost and especially if you fit yourself with a cheap PWM remains a bit of a no brainer, why wouldn’t you avail yourself of something that’s free…

Also if you are used to being a low energy user, you probably don’t need anything else.

My intent was to build a system that was completely self sufficient, never needing hook up, but capable of powering anything. The mrs wanted to be able to use fridge, hairdryer, microwave, coffee machine etc, I wanted full home cinema and hi fi and with high power amp and subwoofer. I promised I’d build a system with no compromise, permanent 240V, and we could be high energy users.

The post was about what I learned as regards having all that solar on the roof from a year of all season ‘field trials’. For the reasons outlined it just doesn’t work as well as hoped. I expected to have to run the engine in winter, not a problem when you are moving a lot, but to avoid being cooked alive in full continental sun and with 35C in the shade we had to take cover and plug in EHU while stationary in summer and I’d absolutely hoped to avoid that. We are not on holiday and needed to be able to stay cool enough to work, to think.

The lesson I learned, as some have rightly homed in on is that to maximise solar capture (and stay under the tree, and never need to run engine or hook up) we really need a remote array that can always be pointed at the sun. If you’ve read Andy Weir’s fantastic book ‘The Martian’ or seen the movie, it would be something like that

An mppt charger is always better.

But I wouldn't have one of those combined solar b2b chargers

I'd keep them separate

 

[dawsey]

I see a conflict between your high energy lifestyle and desire for shade in hot weather.

I prefer to pitch under trees during a heatwave, otherwise the PVC becomes an oven and takes a long time to cool again at night. It's really a big tin can. Your OP left me thinking that roof solar would be better for spring and autumn. I don't have it anyway.

Again you are correct Speedy. We still need a bit of A/C here even in the shade, and we don’t have the power… because the panels, being on the van, are in the shade. I think in a typical UK summer (comparable to spring or autumn here) the system would have worked well, in fact it actually did work well here in both spring and Autumn. Thanks very much for fully understanding the post

 

[PhilandMena]

That was really the point.

I don’t think the winter stuff anyone would disagree with, but in summer I hadn’t fully understood just how hot the van would get when staying stationary, and leaving it in full sun to collect all the energy we need to run the fridge, microwave, computers, stereo, TV, extractors, bit of A/C etc. We are quite power hungry. So yes, we went and hid under trees to stay cooler and of course the solar panels produced nothing. Bugger.

It got me thinking about how much value the panels really added when on the van roof, and what I would do differently if I was doing it again. It would likely be a remote array, but that would come with its own problems of course.

I would have thought the insulation in your Hymer is at least equal to, or superior to my Autotrail, assuming this is the van you still have.
I find when its very, very hot the inside of our motorhome is a lot cooler than outside because of the insulation which works well in both hot and cold climataes.

 

[MisterB]

Shhhh!

Dave, some folks heads might explode if they are made to accept that my sole purpose in life isn’t just to wind them up

If you ever do 'spill the beans' fully, there will be more than few people wishing it had gone ahead when they do a bit of site searching on the internet and some will see (as i did) the potential. Im sure others, and i understand why, despite the potential, would still think its a too big a project for the sums of money involved.

in fairness to a lot of people though, because of the way you described the site, i fully understand why they had reservations and concern about the venture and im sure none of them wanted you to fail, which is why some people posted 'less than positively' about it.

others perhaps, took your 'reviews/comments' of the site as indicative of the full picture, which is why again, some of them may have been sceptical that you were even considering it .....

anyway, best wishes with the new venture. we have all now sold our vans on the site and all have the money in our banks - i just need to resolve one matter with the site owners and they are not going to be pleased NOT to be getting their 'acting as an agent' fee they have tried to con me into !!

 

[dawsey]

Not true . I've never had lithium batteries


Yet

Correct. In fact, solar with its typically slow and continuous charge through the day is perfect for lead acid batteries. It is B2B, with its very rapid charge capability that is ideally suited to lithium.

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[Al n Val]

My intent was to build a system that was completely self sufficient, never needing hook up, but capable of powering anything. The mrs wanted to be able to use fridge, hairdryer, microwave, coffee machine etc, I wanted full home cinema and hi fi and with high power amp and subwoofer. I promised I’d build a system with no compromise, permanent 240V, and we could be high energy users.

Your talking my talk now so may I ask you to expand on the highlighted comment please, i'm interested in what kit you are using to create a

full home cinema and hi fi and with high power amp and subwoofer

 

[dawsey]

If you ever do 'spill the beans' fully, there will be more than few people wishing it had gone ahead when they do a bit of site searching on the internet and some will see (as i did) the potential. Im sure others, and i understand why, despite the potential, would still think its a too big a project for the sums of money involved.

in fairness to a lot of people though, because of the way you described the site, i fully understand why they had reservations and concern about the venture and im sure none of them wanted you to fail, which is why some people posted 'less than positively' about it.

others perhaps, took your 'reviews/comments' of the site as indicative of the full picture, which is why again, some of them may have been sceptical that you were even considering it .....

anyway, best wishes with the new venture. we have all now sold our vans on the site and all have the money in our banks - i just need to resolve one matter with the site owners and they are not going to be pleased NOT to be getting their 'acting as an agent' fee they have tried to con me into !!

Thanks very much. Still feels bloody awful though, a good 4 months lost, and loads of work, over 10 meetings with banks. A very bitter pill. Full update when the thread is reopened.

 

[Northernraider]

Correct. In fact, solar with its typically slow and continuous charge through the day is perfect for lead acid batteries. It is B2B, with its very rapid charge capability that is ideally suited to lithium.

I'm just about to upgrade the electrics in my van to lithium . I'll also have solar and b2b , I tend to move fairly frequently not usually in one place more than 3 or 4 days. Dont want to rely on ehu or running my engine so solar is essential for me.

Solar is fairly cheap these days I'm fitting 2 x200w panels ... around £300

That's only about 10 or 12 nights on a campsite

 

[dawsey]

Your talking my talk now so may I ask you to expand on the highlighted comment please, i'm interested in what kit you are using to create a

Sure. Have a look at my ad for my Hymer B544 on here - a very full description !

Sadly it will have to be withdrawn from sale as we will have to continue to live in it for now.

 

[dawsey]

An mppt charger is always better.

But I wouldn't have one of those combined solar b2b chargers

I'd keep them separate

How come? Worried about reliability? Eggs in one basket thing?

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