Perhaps electric motorhomes will be okay after all?

[Andy_Elddis125]

Motorhomes mainly do low mileages so the emissions making them probably outway the diesel emissions during use. Also electric vehicles need to be driven frequently - batteries discharge slowly and Lithium batteries do not like to be flat for very long. Better that we replace all the delivery vans with electric before worrying about MHs. The best thing we can do is make our existing MHs last as long as possible.

 

[robnchris]

Here's a question for those that support the electric vehicle, how will it fare driving around the Alps and other mountainous countries in the winter months, a route that currently isn't a problem for a diesel engined vehicle but an electric delivery van or truck will surely not be suitable.

 

[frogijock]

Technology accelerates , hasn’t stopped in our lifetimes . Today’s 4 hour charge and 100 mile range will be tomorrow’s 20 minute charge and 400 mile range . A replacement for lithium will be needed though

As the saying “”Tomorrow never comes””

 

[Gromett]

Hi Gromett, why is a Hydrogen filling station so much more expensive. £3mill for a tank sounds excessive. But even so its far better for the environment, which is what this nonsense is perceived to be about.
EV efficiency OK 80% fair assessment but is is using raw power generated elsewhere.

By raw power I presume you mean electricity? If so then you have to say the same about hydrogen. Clean hydrogen is produced by electrolysing water. Then you have to chill and compress the hydrogen, then you have to transport it physically. This all takes electricity. Then when it finally gets into the car the Fuel Cell that converts it back to electricity to charge the battery and power the motor are magnificently inefficient. What this means in effect is that if you use hydrogen you have to generate 2-3x as much electricity than if you just sent it over the wires to charge a battery.

Hydrogen filling stations are expensive because you have to construct them in such a way that hydrogen embrittlemen doesn't occur. The filling system is also a lot more complex. It has to be compressed massively to 700 Bar (10,000 psi), it has to be chilled during this process as it gets warmer under compression. Then there is all the safety equipment. I got it wrong on the cost anyway. It is "up to" $3M not £3M... Not a lot of difference but enough.

The Hydrogen vehicle I have seen figures of 50% but, that is making its own power on the go and will give a far greater range than EVs, with only a small battery capacity compared with EV's. So less pollution from the battery manufacture and shipping, not such a great problem when it comes to scrapping.

You would need double the generating capacity, added grid scale storage, transporters and equipment. That is a lot of extra batteries for the grid stabilisation and a lot of extra trucks running around carrying highly explosive hydrogen around the country. I am sorry but hydrogen for cars and light vans just makes no sense economically, safety and electricity demand point of view.

I will wait until the last minute and if a hydrogen MoHo is not available I will buy a diesel one and keep it for as long as possible or until Hydrogen or a useful EV version comes along. The EV revolution is being forced upon us like useless unused bike lanes.

You may be surprised. In 10 years battery energy density will have doubled. The price will have fallen further and you may find that a 300-400 mile range EV van is a lot more enticing than a Diesel van with fuel stations getting rarer as smaller ones close and diesel taxes rising.

 

[Gromett]

good morning,


Toyota mirai is hydrogen fuelled

Good luck filling it up. At least with your EV you can charge it at home, the supermarket, the Gym and plenty of other places.

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[Gromett]

Motorhomes mainly do low mileages so the emissions making them probably outway the diesel emissions during use. Also electric vehicles need to be driven frequently - batteries discharge slowly and Lithium batteries do not like to be flat for very long. Better that we replace all the delivery vans with electric before worrying about MHs. The best thing we can do is make our existing MHs last as long as possible.

That is what is happening. The market for EV vans is targetting the local deliveries sector. It will be a few years 5+ before practical motorhomes are around in numbers.

As for the battery going flat. You can monitor the state of the battery via you phone. You don't have to worry about the battery going flat silently then you not being able to start it like the current situation with your ICE van

 

[Gromett]

Here's a question for those that support the electric vehicle, how will it fare driving around the Alps and other mountainous countries in the winter months, a route that currently isn't a problem for a diesel engined vehicle but an electric delivery van or truck will surely not be suitable.

They are more suitable in a lot of ways. You can control the power to each driven wheel much more accurately. some 1,000 times a second. Diesel engines get weaker at higher altitudes to to lower air pressure at altitude this doesn't affect EV's. The only issue with EV's is your range is reduced due to temperature however, this can ameliorated by pre-heating the battery.

 

[glenn2926]

They are more suitable in a lot of ways. You can control the power to each driven wheel much more accurately. some 1,000 times a second. Diesel engines get weaker at higher altitudes to to lower air pressure at altitude this doesn't affect EV's. The only issue with EV's is your range is reduced due to temperature however, this can ameliorated by pre-heating the battery.

I would guess the battery won’t last as long going up big hills. Neither does diesel though. I can however refill the diesel in about three minutes. The Hill next to my house is 1 in 4 the house at the top has an electric car a Nissan I think. He doesn’t go up the hill h3 goes all the way round as the hill kills his battery. I remember my dad having crap cars like that in the sixties. They struggled up steep long hills too.

 

[chrisgreen]

I would guess the battery won’t last as long going up big hills. Neither does diesel though. I can however refill the diesel in about three minutes. The Hill next to my house is 1 in 4 the house at the top has an electric car a Nissan I think. He doesn’t go up the hill h3 goes all the way round as the hill kills his battery. I remember my dad having crap cars like that in the sixties. They struggled up steep long hills too.

my EV would go up that hill like a stabbed rat.

 

[glenn2926]

my EV would go up that hill like a stabbed rat.

So will his once or twice then battery runs out. Then what? Plug it in for half a day. Which is ok providing he doesn’t suddenly need to go somewhere.

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[robnchris]

They are more suitable in a lot of ways. You can control the power to each driven wheel much more accurately. some 1,000 times a second. Diesel engines get weaker at higher altitudes to to lower air pressure at altitude this doesn't affect EV's. The only issue with EV's is your range is reduced due to temperature however, this can ameliorated by pre-heating the battery.

Sorry just don't buy "They are more suitable in a lot of ways" statement. the fact is MOST current diesel engines have the power to negotiate very steep inclines in winter, with the heater blazing away or in summer with the air con cooling you down, headlights on etc etc. mile after mile with lets say a 500 mile range.
So just let's get this straight in the alps, mountainous roads in the middle of nowhere.
I speak from the experience of making this sort of journey on many occasions with a fully loaded car.

I believe a current battery driven vehicle doesn't and couldn't get anywhere near this performance.

 

[Gromett]

So will his once or twice then battery runs out. Then what? Plug it in for half a day. Which is ok providing he doesn’t suddenly need to go somewhere.

He either has a crap car or something is wrong with it.

As for going up the hill multiple times. If he is going up it, he must be going down it. Regen braking will put a chunk back into the battery. Bet your diesel doesn't

 

[glenn2926]

He either has a crap car or something is wrong with it.

As for going up the hill multiple times. If he is going up it, he must be going down it. Regen braking will put a chunk back into the battery. Bet your diesel doesn't

Have a read of my post in the 2030 electric vehicles thread. Let me know how your EV does. Here’s a picture of the job.

 

[swiftsteve]

Every rechargeable item that I've ever owned, be they drills, screwdrivers, phones etc. are ever decreasing in their ability to hold a decent charge until such a time as they become obsolete. You used to be able to buy a replacement battery for phones, but samsung and apple etc. soon sussed that out, so now you have to lay out hundreds of £££ replacing your phone. The mileage quoted is for a brand new unused battery, this will obviously diminish over time, and I wouldn't mind betting that replacement batteries will be ultra expensive. This will price the ordinary motorist off the road, driving will be only for the rich.

 

[Jewellbags]

“Oh this new technology will never work . Why would you want to go to a station to buy your gasoline when all I go to do is fill up with plentiful fresh water and shovel in some more coal “ ;-)

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[robnchris]

He either has a crap car or something is wrong with it.

As for going up the hill multiple times. If he is going up it, he must be going down it. Regen braking will put a chunk back into the battery. Bet your diesel doesn't

Have we really invented Perpetual Motion..... Let's just get to the true real world facts, we are a long way off a battery driven vehicle that will replace an Internal Combustion Engine.

 

[Gromett]

Have we really invented Perpetual Motion

Nope, Which is why I said a big chunk not ALL of it back in.

 

[glenn2926]

“Oh this new technology will never work . Why would you want to go to a station to buy your gasoline when all I go to do is fill up with plentiful fresh water and shovel in some more coal “ ;-)

Yeah it will work, shovelling coal and filling with water takes ages (like filling with electric) filling with diesel only takes a couple of minutes.

 

[robnchris]

Nope, Which is why I said a big chunk not ALL of it back in.

I Know I was just being a bit naughty, a bit like yourself in that you are very careful how and what you answer.

So would you agree that we are a long way off from having a battery driven vehicle that will replace an Internal Combustion Engine?

 

[Gromett]

So would you agree that we are a long way off from having a battery driven vehicle that will replace an Internal Combustion Engine?

No I wouldn't agree. We have had lots of battery driven vehicles that replace ICE ones.

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[robnchris]

No I wouldn't agree. We have had lots of battery driven vehicles that replace ICE ones.

Oppps another side step... come on it won't hurt to admit that there isn't a battery driven vehicle that can currently travel between 500 to 700 miles on one charge.
Or that all the figures currently given on miles per charge are in perfect conditions.

 

[Gromett]

Oppps another side step... come on it won't hurt to admit that there isn't a battery driven vehicle that can currently travel between 500 to 700 miles on one charge.

None of my previous vehicles and I mean NONE would do 500-700 on a tank of fuel.

Or that all the figures currently given on miles per charge are in perfect conditions.

AND? The mpg given on brochures for cars are for a specific test condition and are rarely met. Says more about the test conditions than the practicality of the test.


Come on please. If you want me to say something ask me...

 

[robnchris]

None of my previous vehicles and I mean NONE would do 500-700 on a tank of fuel.


AND? The mpg given on brochures for cars are for a specific test condition and are rarely met. Says more about the test conditions than the practicality of the test.


Come on please. If you want me to say something ask me...

My last 3 VW's have all given me more than 500 miles on a full tank and that's fully laden driving to Lake Garda via Annecy through the Mont Blanc tunnel and the Aosta Valley, so certainly through the mountains.

Surely motor vehicle Brochures have for some time given an average MPG. as well as town driving MPG. figures.

I have realised from your posts that you are a big advocate of the electric vehicle I just don't share your enthusiasm or belief that they are anywhere near being a viable replacement for our current ICE driven vehicles.
They may be ok whilst driving around a city for those with the ability to charge over night, but as most cities have high rise type of dwellings with very little with off road parking they are a non starter.

 

[glenn2926]

My pickup won't do 500 miles but does over 400. It will carry just over 1 tonne in the load bed, will tow 2.7 tonnes and can be refilled in 3 or 4 minuets ready for another 400 miles. on just these few uses for my vehicle then no an EV is not viable for me. They probably are viable in cities and for those that just use cars as shopping trolleys.

 

[Jewellbags]

Yeah it will work, shovelling coal and filling with water takes ages (like filling with electric) filling with diesel only takes a couple of minutes.

Not until you can’t get it , it won’t . And I rarely if ever wait for a charge as I always leave home with 300 miles in the “tank”.

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[Jewellbags]

Me thinks that most of the naysayers here have never actually owned electric ? I’ve had big German diesels for the last 20 years of business life and I do 30,000 a year (not this year) . I now have electric and , for business , for repping across the country my current car is better. The total cost of ownership (for me) is better , I never really have to have it serviced, I never have to fill up at a station at £100 a tank and if I do have to charge mid journey it’s only done when I stop for a natural break or a coffee - in which time I have another 200 miles available to me . It’s also a much more relaxing drive . Yep , no good as a pickup (yet) , nor for tradesmen (hey haven’t Mercedes just launched one ?) and it Will be a while until the replace lorry cabs . “Better” is such an arbitrary word but for me , and everyone I know that has one - they feel it is better

 

[glenn2926]

Not until you can’t get it , it won’t . And I rarely if ever wait for a charge as I always leave home with 300 miles in the “tank”.

What if you need to go six hundred miles? Someone is already on the electric pump and they’re going for full so a good few hours.

 

[Jewellbags]

What if you need to go six hundred miles? Someone is already on the electric pump and they’re going for full so a good few hours.

Then I will stop for breakfast or lunch , put my car at one of the very many empty chargers , have a break for 30 mins - and drive on for the next 300 miles at a cost of about £12 .

 

[robnchris]

Then I will stop for breakfast or lunch , put my car at one of the very many empty chargers , have a break for 30 mins - and drive on for the next 300 miles at a cost of about £12 .

And you paid how much for this electric vehicle?

 

[Gromett]

I have realised from your posts that you are a big advocate of the electric vehicle I just don't share your enthusiasm or belief that they are anywhere near being a viable replacement for our current ICE driven vehicles.
They may be ok whilst driving around a city for those with the ability to charge over night, but as most cities have high rise type of dwellings with very little with off road parking they are a non starter.

Let me be clear on this. I agree with the ban on new ICE cars from 2030 because that is what is needed to get the traditional manufacturers to actually make progress.

I have been following electric cars since almost the start of the current generation. So I have seen the progress made almost solely by Tesla who are about to launch a 500 mile car and already have 300+ mile cars that are relatively affordable. Seeing Tesla start at the $100,000+ mark and now producing cars that can be bought for $35,000 less than 10 years later. The fact that batteries have fallen from $1,000+ per KWh to around the $100 per KWh in the same time period. Seeing the energy density rise massively during that same period.

All this leads me to believe with a ban on the horizon much more development funds will go into improving batteries and this will mean affordable and practical EV's for everyone in the next 10-15 years.

I accept that EVs are not for everyone right now, and that not everyone can afford a new car. My main point is that in 10 years time when the ban comes in new car buyers will be able to buy a practical EV that charges faster than todays models do, have a big enough range and cost the same or less than today's cars on a like for like basis. 2nd hand ICE cars will still be available for the next 24 years at least during which time the 2nd hand market for EV cars will have been established.

Todays EVs are more expensive than current ICE cars to buy, but the total cost of ownership (TCO) is lower. So if you have the money, have off road parking and do a reasonable quantity of miles per year will work out cheaper in the medium to long term.

I come across as so positive about EV's because of all the false negative and misleading statements being made about them. Nothing more.

The reason I would like one personally is that I am not a fan of man made noise, so a quiet vehicle would be lovely. I also look forward to massively reduced maintenance and improved reliability. On the pollution front, Having almost collapsed in Bordeaux due to pollution I can think the changeover will only be a good thing for all the kids living in cities.

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