Perhaps electric motorhomes will be okay after all?

[Gromett]

“In a recent R4 prog ('Costing the Earth') I learned that 80% of the world's cobalt needed for batteries is from polluting mining in the Dem Rep of Congo and shipped by heavy oil vessels to China where it is processed and used in battery and EV production,”

Yes and children (some as young as 4) are doing the mining,40,000 of them in Congo, UNICEF and Amnesty international are working flat out on this.

Cobalt is being removed from batteries as we speak. It is not essential.

For shorter range cars LiFePO4 is being used now. Even Tesla uses LiFePO4 in their chinese Model 3's. For those not familiar with chemistry. The Fe bit is the important part. This is iron. Not Cobalt

 

[Pusscat]

For those interested, a link to an article about Tesla research reducing Cobalt in the rechargeable batteries, improved cost both financially and socio politically and environmentally?

Tesla’s Shift To Cobalt-Free Batteries Is Its Most Important Move Yet

Lithium-ion batteries make up a signficant proportion of the cost of electric vehicles, but Tesla's use of new cobalt-free technology could reduce prices considerably, potentially shifting the market rapidly towards EVs.

www.forbes.com

 

[swiftsteve]

It'll be great when I get one of these, I'll finally have a use for my diesel generator

 

[gpat]

Already 7 Hydrogen filling stations in England.

Hi Lenny. Are these retail?

 

[gpat]

It'll be great when I get one of these, I'll finally have a use for my diesel generator

You could tow it behind you. Problem solved

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[minesapint]

Got to have a range of at least 300 miles OR a range of 200 miles and a recharge time of (max ) 20 minutes before I am likely to be interested

The weight of the thing with all the heavy batteries will be well over 3500 when loaded with all our stuff. So they will need to up the weight allowed on an ordinary licence. Or is this another way to force people off the road.

 

[denisejoe]

When it says range of 100 miles is that a a certain speed of flat out on an emergency call as quoted as mpg now is not reliable

 

[Lenny HB]

Hi Lenny. Are these retail?

Mainly for buses, I was just pointing out they are building them.

 

[minesapint]

Maybe it’s a conspiracy........... but by whom?

Hydrogen seems a much better alternative as the pollution caused by making the batteries for these EVs is as Spriddler said
"""In a recent R4 prog ('Costing the Earth') I learned that 80% of the world's cobalt needed for batteries is from polluting mining in the Dem Rep of Congo and shipped by heavy oil vessels to China where it is processed and used in battery and EV production, all powered by vast amounts of electricity from coal-burning power stations. Production of electric motors and the EV's was said to create twice as much CO2 than IC engined vehicles."""
Why are we being pushed towards an unsustainable form of battery power, when Hydrogen is easy to make and only gives off water from the exhaust. It is a problem I find hard to get my head around. Where are the brown envelopes going.

 

[Keith E]

I find the fixation with battery power frustrating. Other means of propulsion are available (or will be, as much as batteries are) - hydrogen being promising for commercial vehicles for instance. EVs are undoubtedly cleaner than petrol or diesel but batteries are the next re-cycling nightmare we are likely to be foisting on our children and grandchildren unless they work out effective ways recycling them.

Not to mention the environmental impact of extracting the necessary elements from the ground

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[Nickyboy]

What about the weight of the vehicles with all those batteries?

 

[Lemut]

Just a thought guy. If it takes a 'few hours' with a rapid charger (50amp-100amp?)to top a cars battery to 80%, how long will it take with with the average rented pitches 3amp supply? Obviously you are not going to use anything else electrical are you while you recharge on pitch are you?
Seriously though, the charging infrastructure is nowhere good enough for our life style but if they make serious efforts to correct this and they could do with charging points in the Highlands(?) where and with what is the electricity going to be reliably generated to supply them?
I love electrical vehicles and I have one for local trips but for a holiday-forget it.

 

[Gromett]

Hydrogen seems a much better alternative as the pollution caused by making the batteries for these EVs is as Spriddler said
"""In a recent R4 prog ('Costing the Earth') I learned that 80% of the world's cobalt needed for batteries is from polluting mining in the Dem Rep of Congo and shipped by heavy oil vessels to China where it is processed and used in battery and EV production, all powered by vast amounts of electricity from coal-burning power stations. Production of electric motors and the EV's was said to create twice as much CO2 than IC engined vehicles."""
Why are we being pushed towards an unsustainable form of battery power, when Hydrogen is easy to make and only gives off water from the exhaust. It is a problem I find hard to get my head around. Where are the brown envelopes going.

See my previous posts in this thread, I have answered this I think already. It is economics.

Summary.
Cost of a hydrogen filling station £3M or thereabouts
Cost of an EV charging point (super charger with infrastructure) top end £250,000.

Round trip efficiency of an EV 80%
Round trip efficiency of a FCEV 40% so you need at least double the electric production capacity for hydrogen.

FCEV cost more to build and still require a battery.

 

[Gromett]

For those interested, a link to an article about Tesla research reducing Cobalt in the rechargeable batteries, improved cost both financially and socio politically and environmentally?

Tesla’s Shift To Cobalt-Free Batteries Is Its Most Important Move Yet

Lithium-ion batteries make up a signficant proportion of the cost of electric vehicles, but Tesla's use of new cobalt-free technology could reduce prices considerably, potentially shifting the market rapidly towards EVs.

www.forbes.com

They are way out on their maths in that article, it is interesting non the less.

Tesla broke the $100 a KWh some time ago according to reports.
So a 40KWh battery would be $4,000
and a 100KWh battery would be $10,000

 

[EMS]

I was reading this week that a hydrogen powered car is available now if you can afford it, just expensive. It converts the Hydrogen to electricity directly and the only exhaust is water that is of drinking quality! It also uses air that it cleans and then exhausts so it purifies the air the nasty elements from petrol and diesel vehicles as it is being used.
We are used to having LPG at our garages so no different to Hydrogen so the vehicle can be refilled in minutes compared to hours for a battery vehicle. The range is more than sufficient for our use as topping up is so simple. The only drawback is currently the cost of such a vehicle and filling stations, there are currently three in London.

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[Nitram77]

They just need to get that 20 minute charge down to 5 minutes and the price down to the same as ICE vehicles and we’re good to go.

We may get the same price as ICE vehicles, but likely that ICE prices will go up because of harmful impacts as well as fully electric prices coming down!

 

[Coolcats]

We may get the same price as ICE vehicles, but likely that ICE prices will go up because of harmful impacts as well as fully electric prices coming down!

Agreed but also prices will increase as less vehicles manufactured in the U.K. and we may have import duties slapped on. But guess we will all manage

 

[Krumpli]

Hello folks,
I'm new here and I read the forums with interest.
We travel a lot to Greece and current electric vehicles would necessitate stopping around 15 to 20 times to recharge. That would make each journey around 10 to 12 days, minimum. I do not know how it would affect people travelling to Spain. I guess just a little bit less. It makes you wonder if it's worth the journey bearing in mind similar timings on the way back. The knock on will be the effect on the economy in the Med.
Also pondering on the holdups at motorway services if the minimum charging time is 2 hours imagine the queues backing up waiting for a free charging point. The traffic will be miles long on the hard shoulder.
Also a rapid charge would be out of the question as I've read that 21 rapid charges will ruin the batteries.
If your battery is flat the AA or RAC man cannot bring you a "bucket of electricity". What fun we have in store.
It's good to be green but not when it's stupid.

Kormos
Bessecarr E760
bessyonthemove.weebly.com

 

[Vipar]

Yes and children (some as young as 4) are doing the mining,40,000 of them in Congo, UNICEF and Amnesty international are working flat out on this.

What recruiting more kids?

 

[StumpyChris]

A practical electric motorhome is not here as yet but if the demand is there it will be developed. The government has set a stretch target but industry experts are not making a fuss and the 2030 date is simply for stopping sale of new ICE vehicles not the closure of filling stations.

A full electric motorhome will be very different from the vehicles we use today LPG and leisure batteries become ancient history as the main vehicle battery can supply ample energy for habitation services instead of a piffling 120 Ah leisure battery you have a unit that could store much more power and can easily spare a few percent for other use. Off grid camping becomes simpler not more complex with no need to rely on solar power although that would help. The vehicle not only has no need for a heavy engine, gearbox, fuel tank or potentially a chassis reducing both weight and complexity out go expensive things like absorption fridges and you can replace heating with a simple heat pump system loads of possibilities.

Battery costs are projected too fall with parity in cost with ICE vehicles by 2025 as quantities ramp up and development costs are recouped. Therefore an all electric motorhome could easily be around the same cost are we pay today. Manufacturers offer 8 year battery life warranties now as even when no use as vehicle batteries the units can be reused in home power banks so still have an appreciable value. Battery management systems give these batteries far longer lives than your phone battery.

Fast chargers that can already deliver up to 250kW so charging while you have your lunch is practical giving you a realistic 200miles range after a 30 minutes charge.

However we you consider motorhomes spend far more time parked up than driving an interesting model starts to become possible where the battery could be left attached to home or storage unit chargers while not in use allowing two way flow where by energy can be stored at times of low usage feeding back power to the grid at peak times generating an income or off setting storage charges. One of the most expensive parts of running the grid is having enough capacity for the peak demand which sits idle the rest of the time so the cost of electricity varies during the day. You can already have tariffs where the customer can actually be paid to take power when there is too much generation capacity with smart chargers designed to minimise costs.

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[minesapint]

See my previous posts in this thread, I have answered this I think already. It is economics.

Summary.
Cost of a hydrogen filling station £3M or thereabouts
Cost of an EV charging point (super charger with infrastructure) top end £250,000.

Round trip efficiency of an EV 80%
Round trip efficiency of a FCEV 40% so you need at least double the electric production capacity for hydrogen.

FCEV cost more to build and still require a battery.

Hi Gromett, why is a Hydrogen filling station so much more expensive. £3mill for a tank sounds excessive. But even so its far better for the environment, which is what this nonsense is perceived to be about.
EV efficiency OK 80% fair assessment but is is using raw power generated elsewhere.
The Hydrogen vehicle I have seen figures of 50% but, that is making its own power on the go and will give a far greater range than EVs, with only a small battery capacity compared with EV's. So less pollution from the battery manufacture and shipping, not such a great problem when it comes to scrapping.
I will wait until the last minute and if a hydrogen MoHo is not available I will buy a diesel one and keep it for as long as possible or until Hydrogen or a useful EV version comes along. The EV revolution is being forced upon us like useless unused bike lanes.

 

[Spriddler]

The Government's 2030 wishful thinking doesn't apply to petrol motorbikes so hopefully there'll still be filling stations until all the petrol and diesel vehicles have been scrapped.

 

[Speve]

Yes and children (some as young as 4) are doing the mining,40,000 of them in Congo, UNICEF and Amnesty international are working flat out on this.

What recruiting more kids?

It would be really helpful if you were to quote which post you are replying to as it does not relate to last post? just saying

 

[gpat]

I was reading this week that a hydrogen powered car is available now if you can afford it, just expensive. It converts the Hydrogen to electricity directly and the only exhaust is water that is of drinking quality! It also uses air that it cleans and then exhausts so it purifies the air the nasty elements from petrol and diesel vehicles as it is being used.
We are used to having LPG at our garages so no different to Hydrogen so the vehicle can be refilled in minutes compared to hours for a battery vehicle. The range is more than sufficient for our use as topping up is so simple. The only drawback is currently the cost of such a vehicle and filling stations, there are currently three in London.

One difference is that hydrogen is very much more explosive than propane and as such represents a greater hazard. It will ignite at almost any concentration.

Hydrogen safety - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gents]

Yes,you would be right to think about those. Our local council,South Cambridgeshire District Council now have an ALL ELECTRIC dustcart. They are very proud of it,but if you’d spent nearly £400,000 on a lorry I guess you’d have to be!!!!!!!!

Of course it’s far too soon to tell if it’s any good..................and by the time they find out it will be too late, those that ordered it will be gone....and so will the money.

£400k and then fill it full of sh1t !Sounds like a great idea

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[AndyVW]

My Tesla covers 250 to 300 miles on a full charge, at "legal speeds", It take 45min to charge at a Tesla supercharger,
the car weighs 2200Kg,s empty
It is 5 years old.now and still does this.
The current new model will do 350 to 400 miles.
and the new battery version due Sept 2021(Teslas own) will do 500+
Tesla,s van is coming...

 

[Jewellbags]

They just need to get that 20 minute charge down to 5 minutes and the price down to the same as ICE vehicles and we’re good to go.

Case in point tesla 3 series fast approaching bmw 3 series price . And no BIK

 

[TinaLes]

Here's a good read on where we are today with EV purchase numbers, along with tax incentives across the world. No wonder VW have a large manufacturing plant set up in China, we will be behind the curve as usual, we could sit and chat for hours about the reasons why, but what a shame, another missed opportunity.
LES

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[Bannister99]

So what size leisure battery does it have

 

[georgio]

good morning,


Toyota mirai is hydrogen fuelled

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