Payload Scam: Hymer now, who´s next?

[Jon Stewart]

I'm sure I read somewhere the the eu has made the equivalent of our b licence in the eu to drive a vechile weight of 3.5 ton
Meanwhile the uk flounders

Anybody with a B licence can drive 3.5t

There are a few threads on here about some special purpose vehicles (including motorhomes) being able to be up to 4.25t on a B licence, principally because electric vans are a lot heavier.

It's up to member states when to implement.

 

[Pausim]

Anybody with a B licence can drive 3.5t

There are a few threads on here about some special purpose vehicles (including motorhomes) being able to be up to 4.25t on a B licence, principally because electric vans are a lot heavier.

It's up to member states when to implement.

The UK did this back in 2018 but it is limited to alternatively-fuelled goods vans with a maximum authorised mass (MAM) of 4,250 kilograms.
Edit. It does not cover motorhomes.

 

[JaG]

[QUOTE=" A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.

I've just gone for 4000kg up plating on that very basis. Going to 3850kg only needed rear air assist but going to 4000kg put around another £400 in the cost for the additional 150kg of weight.

As there is a 5% allowance over weight in the UK (are there similar in the EU?) then 3850kg gives a theoretical accepted allowance of 4004kg, if that includes water being carried then it could be dumped if the motorhome was restricted from driving.

Please note, I am NOT advocating anyone should plan to drive an overweight vehicle, which is why I spent extra to plate ours to 4000kg.

Roby2008 - going to 3650 actually gives you 3850 in the UK before any action is taken against you if you include the 5% overweight allowance, according to UK law, though I don't know how that translates into EU law
[/QUOTE]
That's OK for law purposes, but what about Insurance? Don't somehow think they would give you 10% in a claim situation.

 

[Paddlers]

We're in the middle of this process . Autotrail 736 G plated at 3650 . We loaded it with EVERYTHING we might need for a life on the road after purchase including full tanks of fuel & water , new towbar & new twin Gaslow system . 3820 with the management aboard but not me (I'm a slim 120kg) .
Did the same with no water and basic necessities 3620 but still no me so we've gone for air assist on the rear springs but with the original Continental tyres on 15" rims needed new tyres to go from 109 to 112 loads (215 to 225 ) which should get us up to 3850 .
Just waiting for the paperwork from SV Tech to get the V5 sent off . Worth it for peace of mind as we've been to Spain , France and touring the UK. I'd hate to have to leave the management stood on the roadside if we get a tug...

 

[Barriesimpson]

It has always annoyed me how salesmen don’t properly explain pay loads. However, I do believe that the maximum weight permitted on a normal licence should be increased. How manufacturers going to manage with increased weights for electric vehicles?

That is exactly why the new regulation comes into place, for the electric vehicles and their weight. Fortunately they included Motorhomes in the rule, so yes, 4.250 is the new weight limit for a B license in Europe. Nobody yet knows if the UK will follow suit.

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[JaG]

We boxed a bit clever (I think) when we uprated our Autotrail Cheyenne 740SE from 3,850kg to 4,400kg, with only uprated 121, 10 ply tyres all round, though we did put air assist on too.
It seems that the B license will soon be uorated for all vehicles soon to 4,250kg, which is pre EU rate anyway. We took it over to keep the £165 yearly tax, wirh the option of dropping to 4,250kg should I fail a later medical. That is all assuming Starmer follows the EU directive, due to be passed in April, so I heard.
As a matter of interest, when we bought it it was rated at 3,500kg. It was uprated by SV Tech to 3,850kg before we picked it up. Guess what it weighed empty when we got it home?.....3,800kg. So it never weighed less than 3,500kg in the first place.

 

[JaG]

That is exactly why the new regulation comes into place, for the electric vehicles and their weight. Fortunately they included Motorhomes in the rule, so yes, 4.250 is the new weight limit for a B license in Europe. Nobody yet knows if the UK will follow suit.

As my last post. Hopefully Starmer will follow Europe, which apparantly we normally do adopt it. Fingers crossed eh.

 

[dunnah01]

I'll only take any notice of Payloads if they talk about rear axle capacities. GVW is pretty much meaningless as any sort of measure to do with weights.

 

[DerryW]

Hi Mister B
Are you on the light or heavy Fiat chassis?

Our 2019 has been uprated to 3850 with VB air assist on the rear I think it’s the Fiat light chassis on 16” wheels. Be nice if it could be uprated further. We had it weighed before purchase it was 3260 1/4 water and Derv.

we are on the light chassis i believe, although we have 16 inch rims with a PCD of 130mm, so our max was 4000kg - we were allowed 3850 with rear air but then went for 4000 with uprated front coils

i think the lighter chassis is identified by a G in the vin number from reading other threads/forums and the later model vehicles with 16 inch rims and 130mm pcd seem to be on a heaver chassis.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, it looks like the heavier front springs are the way to go.
That or dump the 2 Ebikes at 24kgs each.
Thanks once again.

 

[Minxy]

Thanks, it looks like the heavier front springs are the way to go.
That or dump the 2 Ebikes at 24kgs each.
Thanks once again.

Only if you can actually make use of the extra capacity on the front axle, the max for the rear would still be 2240 regardless of whether it's 3850 or 4000 overall.

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[MisterB]

we are on the light chassis i believe, although we have 16 inch rims with a PCD of 130mm, so our max was 4000kg - we were allowed 3850 with rear air but then went for 4000 with uprated front coils

i think the lighter chassis is identified by a G in the vin number from reading other threads/forums and the later model vehicles with 16 inch rims and 130mm pcd seem to be on a heaver chassis.

Thanks, it looks like the heavier front springs are the way to go.
That or dump the 2 Ebikes at 24kgs each.
Thanks once again.
[/QUOTE]

as Minxy pointed out - check what your rear axle is weighted to, though my understanding is that so long as youre not over 2240 on the back with the bikes BUT you are more than 3850 overall, then uprating the front springs will help get you to 4000kg, which might work for you?

after searching around and checking with others, i had Kilen springs fitted to the front. they make two versions, one up to 2000kg and one above. as youre only looking to go up to 2000 on the front, then the lower rated coil springs will probably be sufficient. if you read

Uprating front coils on Fiat Ducato

Worth bearing in mind both would be ok as the total axle weight would be at least 3998Kgs, more than enough for your van. Is it worth checking which one gives most extra ride height?

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

then you will see the thought process and which Kilen springs i went for - i dont pretend to be any sort of expert so needed as much technical help i could get !

 

[DerryW]

Only if you can actually make use of the extra capacity on the front axle, the max for the rear would still be 2240 regardless of whether it's 3850 or 4000 overall.

Good point Minxy. Never managed to get the front axle anywhere near its max.

 

[CAB96]

I'm sure I read somewhere the the eu has made the equivalent of our b licence in the eu to drive a vechile weight of 3.5 ton
Meanwhile the uk flounders

Anybody with a B licence can drive 3.5t

There are a few threads on here about some special purpose vehicles (including motorhomes) being able to be up to 4.25t on a B licence, principally because electric vans are a lot heavier.

It's up to member states when to implement.

Not yet, apparently.

 

[CAB96]

Ok, here's the deal. I've seen a lot of mention of the EU and 4250kg for motorhomes. It's not done yet, and won't be for some time.

This is the EU Parliament site for the legislation:

Procedure File: 2023/0053(COD) | Legislative Observatory | European Parliament

European Parliament Legislative Observatory Procedure

oeil.secure.europarl.europa.eu

• The EU Commission proposed a text (which included B licence allowance of 4250kg for 'alternately fuelled' vehicles);
• The EU Parliament proposed amendments (which included B licence allowance of 4250kg for special purpose (ambulances etc.) including motor caravans);
• The Parliament Committee voted to commence the Trilogue (October 2024).
• Now the negotiations start - the Commission, the Parliament, and the EU Council (the Member States) start a discussion and agree a text.

There is not usually a timetable, but it usually takes some months. We have no way of knowing if the 4250 kg will be agreed. I reckon second half of this year before we know what is in the agreed text.

There's a whole load of other stuff on digital licences, and various other updates.

In summary, the EU are not there yet. Even when the '4th Directive' is published, Member States have 2 years to put it into their own legislation, and a further year to implement.

If the UK are going to follow, it's going to be even longer.

 

[Smokaijo]

So

It's challenging to find 3.5t plated motorhomes that have a real-world useable payload. A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.

when they are all selling at NEC should we be questioning every representative about whether they are sure of their payloads ???

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[Pausim]

So

when they are all selling at NEC should we be questioning every representative about whether they are sure of their payloads ???

They are sales people with targets to achieve, they are sure to say yes there is a generous payload. Half of them have probably never loaded a motorhome or know what they are talking about and the other half are more interested in their commission than your interests. You will get more reliable information on Motorhomefun.

 

[bjandlin]

When we bought our 2006 built 584 it wore a plate for 3900kg. although registered in France at 3500kg.
The Hymer brochure showed all models in that range to be 3500.
I queried this with Hymer, asking if there had been a chassis upgrade.
Their reply was that the plate was incorrect & subsequently sent a new plate for 3500kg.
Always seemed rather odd.

 

[Wheelnut]

Not so sure. Does your insurance cease to be valid every time you break a speed limit, why would being overweight be any different. If you were involved in an accident and being overweight was found to be the cause you might well have difficulty claiming.

Sorry Clemmo is right when you signed your insurance you confirmed your vehicle specifications as 3.5t you lied therefore your insurance is invalid. As far as speeding is concerned if you get caught and get a ticket you must inform your insurance if not your insurance will be invalid also your car insurance if you have it. Thy will not pay out, ignorance does not make you exempt
Please always get your van on a weightbridge just to make sure then happy Motorhome times

 

[Millcourt]

Sorry Clemmo is right when you signed your insurance you confirmed your vehicle specifications as 3.5t you lied therefore your insurance is invalid. As far as speeding is concerned if you get caught and get a ticket you must inform your insurance if not your insurance will be invalid also your car insurance if you have it. Thy will not pay out, ignorance does not make you exempt
Please always get your van on a weightbridge just to make sure then happy Motorhome times

I am surprised by what you say, but happy to be corrected if you have contrary experience. I have never been asked to specify vehicle weight on any insurance I have taken out over the last 60+ years. I have only once had a vehicle up-plated, our current MoHo from 3,500 kg as sold to us to 3960 kg. I advised my current insurers (LV) who advised that it made no difference to the cover or premium.

 

[Minxy]

Sorry Clemmo is right when you signed your insurance you confirmed your vehicle specifications as 3.5t you lied therefore your insurance is invalid. As far as speeding is concerned if you get caught and get a ticket you must inform your insurance if not your insurance will be invalid also your car insurance if you have it. Thy will not pay out, ignorance does not make you exempt
Please always get your van on a weightbridge just to make sure then happy Motorhome times

Never been asked about vehicle weight for insurance only purposes, the only time it's been checked by a an insurance provider is for recovery if it's as an addition or included with the insurance policy as some recovery policies won't deal with anything over 3.5t.

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[68c]

That is exactly why the new regulation comes into place, for the electric vehicles and their weight. Fortunately they included Motorhomes in the rule, so yes, 4.250 is the new weight limit for a B license in Europe. Nobody yet knows if the UK will follow suit.

I suspect they mean only electric motorhomes. The first paragraph of the notice actually refers to 'alternate fuel' so I suppose could include Autogas or even steam. Really do not think they will ever increase the weight for diesel vans as they consider them the work of the devil.

 

[Pausim]

I suspect they mean only electric motorhomes. The first paragraph of the notice actually refers to 'alternate fuel' so I suppose could include Autogas or even steam. Really do not think they will ever increase the weight for diesel vans as they consider them the work of the devil.

Autogas and steam are not considered alternative fuels because they are not zero emissions at the tail pipe. Electric and hydrogen vehicles are covered in the UK rules that were introduced in 2018.

 

[Bill-H]

I'm thinking that if or when the UK does increase the B licence to 4250, the manufacturers will up the weights of their new vehicles by adding lots of extra 'stuff' and making the vehicles bigger, and owners will then be overloading up past the 4,250kg anyway.

 

[TheMachMan]

Funny I was using the Malibu PVC configurator the other day and after I’d finished speccing a 6.3m it told me it was over weight and would have limited payload!

 

[MisterB]

and the V5 arrived this morning ..... so from submitting the paperwork to receiving the new V5 was 19 days in total !!!

And I've now had notification of a refund coming soon ...!

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[Lenny HB]

I am surprised by what you say, but happy to be corrected if you have contrary experience. I have never been asked to specify vehicle weight on any insurance I have taken out over the last 60+ years. I have only once had a vehicle up-plated, our current MoHo from 3,500 kg as sold to us to 3960 kg. I advised my current insurers (LV) who advised that it made no difference to the cover or premium.

Never been asked about vehicle weight for insurance only purposes, the only time it's been checked by a an insurance provider is for recovery if it's as an addition or included with the insurance policy as some recovery policies won't deal with anything over 3.5t.

Insured the current van with NFU first time I have ever been asked for weight.

 

[georgio]

Its always been plain as pikestaff that when you look at some of the motorhomes that are grossed at 3500 kg that it is fantasy. The folk that sell them should give their heads a wobble. I have bee saying for years now that a van should be plated at 4000 kg because they are a lot safer than 40 years ago. Disc brakes Lsv steering etc are completly different.

 

[CAB96]

I suspect they mean only electric motorhomes. The first paragraph of the notice actually refers to 'alternate fuel' so I suppose could include Autogas or even steam. Really do not think they will ever increase the weight for diesel vans as they consider them the work of the devil.

The amended draft text specifically adds motor caravans.

Not qualified as alternately fuelled, just motor caravans.

So will apply to existing and future diesels, if it passes.

But of course, EU licences only, unless the UK adopts similar legislation.

 

[CAB96]

We boxed a bit clever (I think) when we uprated our Autotrail Cheyenne 740SE from 3,850kg to 4,400kg, with only uprated 121, 10 ply tyres all round, though we did put air assist on too.
It seems that the B license will soon be uorated for all vehicles soon to 4,250kg, which is pre EU rate anyway. We took it over to keep the £165 yearly tax, wirh the option of dropping to 4,250kg should I fail a later medical. That is all assuming Starmer follows the EU directive, due to be passed in April, so I heard.
As a matter of interest, when we bought it it was rated at 3,500kg. It was uprated by SV Tech to 3,850kg before we picked it up. Guess what it weighed empty when we got it home?.....3,800kg. So it never weighed less than 3,500kg in the first place.

Not April I'm afraid. (although Interested to know where you got April from?)

Well, not April 2025, although the text might be agreed by then.

Not April 2026 either.

Maybe April 2027 for those EU Member States who are quick out of the blocks.

April 2028 for all of them, assuming the Trilogue is completed, the text is finished and gone through by Legal, and published in the OJ by 10th April this year.

See
Post in thread 'Payload Scam: Hymer now, who´s next?'

Payload Scam: Hymer now, who´s next?

I'm sure I read somewhere the the eu has made the equivalent of our b licence in the eu to drive a vechile weight of 3.5 ton Meanwhile the uk flounders Anybody with a B licence can drive 3.5t There are a few threads on here about some special purpose vehicles (including motorhomes) being able...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[pagey]

I will post it up

changed til next wednesday ive got the flu

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