Payload Scam: Hymer now, who´s next?

[PaulW2]

remember I said the society. Not the manufacturers.

Just follow Germans around Europe keeping to all of the speed limits. Whilst the French, Spanish and Italians wheelspin past.

We just follow orders?

And those of us who give orders? What orders do they give?

(Actually, many Germans of course don't follow orders/rules at all.)

 

[Brains]

These are the acronyms that the NCC use to inform us about payload. ALM, MTPLM, MRO, CL, MAL, TW, ULW. They need to forget all those and settle on just one. Whether new or used, vehicles for sale by dealers should display just one weight. FW. the Forecourt Weight. What it weighs NOW on the Forecourt.

That also needs a standard amount of fuel, gas, etc.

Otherwise you'll have them removing the batteries, awning, cassette, matrasses, draining the sump and filling the tyres and water tank with helium.

I agree on a single 'OTR' standard, but I'd not trust the dealer (or the manufacturer) to provide it.

An actual weight provided at the MoT certificate would be a start.
And every motorhome would have to have an MoT before the first registration is granted.

I seem to remember there was an issue in NI where the ramps used did not conform to DVLA standards and all had to be replaced, I'm sure a modern vehicle ramp gives a very good indication of weight.

 

[MisterB]

.... and filling the tyres with helium.

If they used hydrogen to fill the tyres, the tyres could act as a secondary fuel tank and you could remove the need for LPG completely, thus saving even more weight?

 

[Brains]

If they used hydrogen to fill the tyres, the tyres could act as a secondary fuel tank and you could remove the need for LPG completely, thus saving even more weight?

Why stop there, you could fill up all the tanks with hydrogen!
(drinking water tank, grey water tank, diesel tank, gas bottles, radiator etc)

Massive weight saving ! and secondary fuel!
What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Roby2008]

And this one!

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/letter-from-carthago-overweight-van-issue.293098/

Why stop there, you could fill up all the tanks with hydrogen!
(drinking water tank, grey water tank, diesel tank, gas bottles, radiator etc)

Massive weight saving ! and secondary fuel!
What could possibly go wrong?

The new Hindenburg line of MHs ........

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[Googlebot]

Caravans have the same issues. You get 140KG in some of them, that’s about usual and very very difficult to stick to. Put movers on and that’s about 30KG gone immediately.

Bailey had the debacle with the Alko axles as well. They all sagged and ended up with wheels rubbing on the arches, new axle or 1.5K refurbishing your own.

Mine was done under warranty where thankfully I had sense to empty the lot before taking it in. They weighed the van before approving the warranty repair. There were hundreds of owners who lost out and ended up replacing at their own cost even when under warranty as they were a few KG over.

It’s also worse with caravans being maximum technically permissible laden mass. It includes the nose weight of about 90KG which then takes payload off your car of 90KG. Effectively, you lose 90KG of payload somewhere.

I agree with Jim, standard definitions instead of smoke and mirrors would be very helpful.

Our Exsis is supposed to be 2900KG empty. With 4 of us and the dogs, we haven’t a chance of keeping it legal so I had to uprate.

 

[pagey]

Mine is supposed to be 2960k according to the coc , it came out of the factory with a bike rack and an awning it's going for a mot next Wednesday and it will be weighed it now has 2 la batteries and a solar panel there is about 15 ltrs of derv in it and no water and its completely empty no tools,clothes pots pans etc

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Mine is supposed to be 2960k according to the coc , it came out of the factory with a bike rack and an awning it's going for a mot next Wednesday and it will be weighed it now has 2 la batteries and a solar panel there is about 15 ltrs of derv in it and no water and its completely empty no tools,clothes pots pans etc

Let us know.
Mike.

 

[Bernie P]

I weighed our A Class Rapido (plated at 3500kg) on our first weekend away. Me, Wife, Dog, full fuel, 20L water and kit/food for a weekend. Came in at 3560kg! Up-plated it to 3700kg. Good job we never used it in it's designed 4 berth configuration!

I took our new PVC (plated at 3500kg) straight to the local builders merchant on the way home and weighed it as delivered but with a full tank of fuel, no water, gas, passengers. Came in at 2980kg. We've weighed everything that goes in the van (even the dog) and have it on a spreadsheet which we check regularly. Reckon we have about 105kg spare in worst case condition.

Note just checked my spreadsheet and in worst case condition the two of us plus dog use about 413kg. So the 400kg guide weight given above is pretty accurate.

 

[Dall]

It's challenging to find 3.5t plated motorhomes that have a real-world useable payload. A touring couple needs around 400kg and so many vans just don't have enough.

And there lies the problem Jim.
MH manufacturers have to build a MH that has all of the kit that todays customer requires. They use a chassis/van that is built to carry this level of kit, but then have to derate the MH in MGW to comply with an EU/UK licence law that does not allow drivers who passed their driving test in the last 25 years or older people who, for what ever reason do not have the medical status to drive the heavier MH to actually use the weight the MH is capable of carrying.
MH manufacturers are between a rock and a hard place - the root cause of this issue sits firmly with the Driving Laws.
Hopefully in the not to distant future, the driving laws will change to allow either the reinstatement of a C1 licence when passing a B test or better still uprating the B licence to 4250kg as is often talked about on this forum.

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[OldAgeTravellers]

Only sent mine last Friday, last time I uprated a van paperwork came back in 2 weeks but they got it wrong and took 4 months to get it corrected.

I sent mine off to DVLA six weeks ago, the upgrade has just appeared on my DVLA Driver & Vehicle record as now 4,800kg so just on the six weeks, we are travelling so can’t receive the new V5 unfortunately. Hopefully they will accept a print-out of the DVLA page in the unlikely event I get a pull in Spain or France. Interesting the Previous V5 didn’t have the max permissible mass filled in but they have now done both Revenue weight and MPM at 4,800kg.
Was the earlier statement that in the UK there is a 5% allowance, correct? As that would mean we are allowed up to 5,040kg in the UK. Much more wine and beer.

 

[pagey]

Let us know.
Mike.

I will post it up

 

[pandas]

When this first came up about Hymer a few years ago I thought it was odd as I have had 3 Hymers and they have all been within a few kilos of the specified weight. It must be just a few models they picked up on.
Although our last van was 4500kg, they did offer it at 3500kg but I've never seen one fore sale at that weight.

The original order for our 4250kg Carthago was cancelled and the only way to get one without waiting a third year was to have a 3500kg one.
Weighed it on the first trip it was 300kg over, just waiting for new V5 uprated to 4000kg.

have you factored in the 180 kg of water you carry?

 

[Millcourt]

………………..going to 3650 actually gives you 3850 in the UK before any action is taken against you if you include the 5% overweight allowance, according to UK law, though I don't know how that translates into EU law.

That is very interesting. Do you know which UK legislation permits this? I understood that Converters used a +/- 5% tolerance in their published data to allow for variation in the weight of components used. (Granted there is much evidence to suggest the weight of the MoHo leaving the Converter is + rather than - ). I have heard it mentioned before that the Police do not usually prosecute for “small” overloads, but this is at their discretion and I do not think it is set out in law. Very happy to be corrected on this.

 

[Lenny HB]

have you factored in the 180 kg of water you carry

It's only 150kg
If you can't drive with a full water tank a Motorhome is not fit for purpose.

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[MisterB]

That is very interesting. Do you know which UK legislation permits this? I understood that Converters used a +/- 5% tolerance in their published data to allow for variation in the weight of components used. (Granted there is much evidence to suggest the weight of the MoHo leaving the Converter is + rather than - ). I have heard it mentioned before that the Police do not usually prosecute for “small” overloads, but this is at their discretion and I do not think it is set out in law. Very happy to be corrected on this.

A £100 penalty will be given for a 0% to 9.99% overload, but DVSA examiners will allow a 5% leeway before issuing a fixed penalty or prohibition, unless the relevant weight has been exceeded by 1 tonne or more

Post in thread 'Uprating (up-plating?) - paper exercise: am I missing something?' https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/foru...se-am-i-missing-something.314862/post-6472436



I got the info from searching on the web ....as I mentioned, I am NOT advocating anyone knowingly driving over their vehicle weight limits. Interestingly it states WILL allow not MAY allow the 5% 'leeway'....

DVSA roadside checks: fines and financial deposits

www.gov.uk

 

[Pausim]

Was the earlier statement that in the UK there is a 5% allowance, correct? As that would mean we are allowed up to 5,040kg in the UK.

The DVSA advise their staff not to impose fines below 5% over but it doesn’t mean they will allow you to drive off until you are back below 4800kg. Other enforcers such as the Police may not follow the same advice. You also need to remember the individual axle limits. 5% over on the total figure might be 10% over on one axle and you would then still be in for a fine.

 

[MisterB]

I sent mine off to DVLA six weeks ago, the upgrade has just appeared on my DVLA Driver & Vehicle record as now 4,800kg so just on the six weeks, we are travelling so can’t receive the new V5 unfortunately. Hopefully they will accept a print-out of the DVLA page in the unlikely event I get a pull in Spain or France. Interesting the Previous V5 didn’t have the max permissible mass filled in but they have now done both Revenue weight and MPM at 4,800kg.
Was the earlier statement that in the UK there is a 5% allowance, correct? As that would mean we are allowed up to 5,040kg in the UK. Much more wine and beer.

DVSA roadside checks: fines and financial deposits

www.gov.uk

youre not actually 'allowed', its just that they will accept a 'leeway' of being 5% over

 

[PaulW2]

To the question of who is next I think the answer is it could be pretty much any motorhome manufacturer. It just depends on what the applicable governance and regulations say. The ones that have been caught have tripped up on that.

It doesn't mean that any of the others have a good payload. But when they keep quiet about it, or tell half-truths, or when they say you need to make sure that you are legal by carrying little water and only having one change of underwear, are they breaking any laws or regulations?

It's only then that anything will come of it.

It's often an arms race between regulators and in-house counsel. They will always do what they can to maximise profit and they will always sail as close to the wind as they think they can get away with.

This is true of the VW scandal, of the banking scandals we have had, of some of the insider trading scandals, of the problems with utilities in the UK, of the Post Office scandal even.

Remember when the financial services firms attracted a high percentage of the best maths graduates? When 4,000 bankers in London got £ 1m + bonuses every year? What were they doing? Creating wealth? No, they were moving other people's wealth. They were largely outwitting, outflanking and skimming. It's called rent-seeking. Tilt a captive market in your favour.

It's also true of tax scandals and dodges. The big accounting forms have more resources and they can find dodges that government resources may find hard to challenge in the short term.

 

[Clemmo]

Many drive overweight without any thought.
Many drive overweight knowingly and willingly.
It's an Insurance companies delight!..if your vehicle is not "legal and roadworthy" then your insurance is not valid.

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[MisterB]

OldAgeTravellers

Thanks for the info re DVLA Driver and Vehicle record - ive just set mine up AND ..... (drum roll ....)

my motorhome is now up plated to 4000kg (Private HGV ) as of 29th January, so its taken them less than 16 days in total !!

just awaiting the V5 now ....

Lenny HB - hopefully yours will take the same amount of time !!

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

Thanks for the info re DVLA Driver and Vehicle record - ive just sent mine up AND .....

Yes very useful, I stumbled across it and signed up now have access to all my info.

 

[Pausim]

It's an Insurance companies delight!..if your vehicle is not "legal and roadworthy" then your insurance is not valid.

Not so sure. Does your insurance cease to be valid every time you break a speed limit, why would being overweight be any different. If you were involved in an accident and being overweight was found to be the cause you might well have difficulty claiming.

 

[Stoosal]

I would be careful of assuming there is a 5% overweight freebie!


A 5% allowance may be given before a ticket is issued, if it is the only offence, but if you are 5% over on gross weight plus over on an axle you have two offences and a warning is less likely. A 5% guidance is given before issuing a ticket not from stopping you continuing your journey.

Domestic users aren’t automatically given a leeway for warnings. A weighing authority isnt keen on allowing an overweight vehicle to drive off, so as you are aware, a prohibition notice can be issued to prevent movement until weight is reduced. Water is easy to dump but if you don’t have that then you will need to reduce weight to the prescribed limits before the prohibition notice will be removed. So…..assume an example where you are plated at 3650 but weighed at 3850 (5%ish). You dump 100kgs of water. You need to find another 100kgs to remove….what are you going to dump now and where are you going to put it? The prohibiting agency may not wait around for you to reduce weight so it may be some time before they are able to weigh you again to remove a prohibition notice.

Appreciate that in most cases police/DVSA are likely to try and allow journeys to continue for minor indiscretions but please don’t assume that Police/DVSA won’t enforce the regulations if they are having a dedicated day aimed at overweight vehicles etc.

 

[davejen]

I am in the process of changing the Timberland for a A/T Cheyenne. The Cheyenne was advertised at being 3800kg so I have asked the dealer to downplate to 3500 . He has done and when it was weighed it came in at 2900, so giving me 600kg to play with.
Plenty for us.
Cheers, Dave

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[LostInSpace]

400kg might be OK on a Brit bNowuilt van but a German one you need at least 600kg as you need to add a lot of extras to bring it up to the same spec

Now that, I do not understand.

Our German motorhome has everything we need. And a few things we don't need.

No need to add a lot of (or even any) extras. It is very nice as it is. As it came from the showroom.

Oh, we did change the AGM leisure battery for LiFePO4 - but no weight added there!

 

[Al n Val]

I'm in the same position, though I only sent my paperwork off two weeks ago, so I reckon another 5/6 weeks for me ....

Got ours back on monday and they signed for it 26th November

pillocks

 

[MisterB]

Got ours back on monday and they signed for it 26th November

pillocks

I checked mine on line today .... It's been completed - dated 29th January at 4000kg according to the website, that's 16 days !!

 

[Brains]

It's only 150kg
If you can't drive with a full water tank a Motorhome is not fit for purpose.

The Hymer manuals quite clearly state only 25% full when travelling.
The plastic tanks flex when full.

There is even a tap on top of the tank with two settings, 25% for travel, or 100% to drain down.
The drain valve on the bottom of the tank is connected to the tap on the top of the tank by a long rod.

If the tank flexes too much then the rod comes out of the drain socket, and it takes all the skills of a gynaecologic contortionist to put it back.

 

[Lenny HB]

The Hymer manuals quite clearly state only 25% full when travelling.
The plastic tanks flex when full.

There is even a tap on top of the tank with two settings, 25% for travel, or 100% to drain down.
The drain valve on the bottom of the tank is connected to the tap on the top of the tank by a long rod.

If the tank flexes too much then the rod comes out of the drain socket, and it takes all the skills of a gynaecologic contortionist to put it back.

It's 20% actually, just a payload fiddle.
I've had 3 Hymers over 16 years always travelled with a full tank, never had a problem.
Current Carthago has the same arrangement I've traveled with a full tank from day one.

That rod normally comes out with over zellos unscrewing.

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