Number of days allowed to stay in Eurozone countries

Allanm said:
You keep quoting this but it is incorrect. After 3 months you can apply for residency if you wish to stay in that country. Spain may have different rules and your post may reflect them, but in France there is no automatic residency.
You can’t have residency in two different countries.
Click to expand...

You misunderstand the French position. Up to 31/12/2020 the French position was that an official residency card or whatever was not necessary for any Brit citizen [in this case] because the incomer was exercising their right, enshrined in EU law, of Freedom of Movement. The French position has been that the FoM law takes care of the incoming Brit citizen. There are people of all EU nationalities who have lived in FR for decades who have no CdS because, under this FR system, they have never needed one.

Come 01/01/2021, they will - if they are British. The others can stay ad inf.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Augusta08 said:
I've never been asked for my carte de séjour yet. My next door neighbour is a gendarme and he say's as long as he can borrow my hedge trimmer, I can stay in France.
Click to expand...

I think, for the purposes of the topic as posted, it would be best to leave the pro and cons of Brexit and the demographic of the voters to another thread.

France is an exception to the way most other EU countries have been operating with other EU nationals.

Because Freedom of Movement is enshrined in EU law the French, being logical people [they say], and buying into the EU hook, line and sinker, did not feel the need to get people to register after being in FR 90+ days. The incomer was simply exercising their right under FoM.

So no Brit, including Augusta08, has been obliged to obtain a Carte de Sejour [Residency Card] after 90+ days in FR. That will change on 01/01/2021.

But, as Gus Lopez and others have said, in SP and other countries it is OBLIGATORY to apply for residency after 90+ days. At that point, having become a resident of that country, it is illegal to drive a GB plated vehicle. Brits have been doing this in SP for years but the net has been closing on them remorselessly. It has to be said that this applies principally to long-term resident Brits on the costas who have never bothered to re-reg RHD or buy a SP plated car.

There is a lot of mileage in the view that a GB plated m/h or camper trundling round any EU country is not going to be of much interest while trundling on tour.

It is at the borders that the trouble may start. And this is an instance where innocence has to be proven by the traveller, not guilt proven by the authorities.

Debating about who gets to do the fining and pocket the money after X days here and Y days there is totally beside the point. The best course is to assume that the crew who ping you will do the fining, the impounding of your vehicle and all the other nasties that are in their 'can do' list. Logically, this will be at a border. It doesn't matter which. The result will be tears before bedtime.
 
MisterB said:
To my knowledge, a tourist Visa may be an option. Or just some bloody good planning for each set of 90 days.

I also wonder how it will be policed and which countries will collect any fines imposed? If you stay for 89 days in france, then 2 days in Spain, then leave via a ferry would the Spanish fine you and collect the money?? Or would you just not be allowed into mainland Europe for 180 days? Do they have 'systems' that talk to each other for the calculations or will it, as I assume be simple passport stamping at entry and exit??

Do the rules allow one country not to enforce it?

The 'main' tourist industry will not be massively impacted by the loss of a few thousand who would want to stay past the 90 days limit, so it wont surprise me if nothing is done to ease access outside of the schengen rules.
Click to expand...

You are quite right to think that 'nothing will be done...'

Axing Freedom of Movement was the A#1 policy of the pro-Brexit side. It was the cherry on the 'Take Back Control' cake. You only have to read up on the distressing situation of many EU citizens who have made UK their homes to realise that the going has been made extremely tough for them.

It would be naive to think that EU countries would not take a dim view of this and feel entitled to a bit of tit-for-tat.

"Do the rules allow one country not to enforce it?"

The rules, as you put it, are the rules of the EU. It has to be assumed that the border controls of any Schengen area country will be the same as all others. Why would they not be? The Belgians and Danes hold the Brits dear in their hearts. They have been rescued from German military occupation twice in 50 years by Britain and her Commonwealth allies. So also the Dutch and Norwegians, in WW2.

But sadly, it is simply not sensible to imagine that DK, BE or NL border procedures will differ from any other Schengen area border controls. As you say, simple passport stamping will likely be the m.o. It goes on all over the world and used to be the case before UK joined the CM.

As things stand, the calculations are elementary. Without any other authorisation such as a long-tern visa, a Brit will be allowed 90 days in any rolling 180 in a Schengen area country. It is possibly the case that one could move to a non Schengen area country - Romania, anyone? - but the route to return to UK is entirely 'surrounded' by Schengen area countries. Transit time to and from UK must be factored into the 90 allowance.

1593249814295.png
 
Hilewaychile said:
Debating about who gets to do the fining and pocket the money after X days here and Y days there is totally beside the point.
Click to expand...


why is it totally besides the point, the truth is that no one knows how or whether it will be enforced. i am of the belief that it WILL be enforced, but curious to know how

if as you suggest, vehicles are impounded, arent you just a little bit curious as to how that might work ?

i am also interested to find out if you are more likely to be fined in one country than the next? who gets the money, how is it worked out.

i do not intend breaking the law and have in other posts suggested a travel visa might be an option, but if it isnt applied vigorously in one country, then i might be tempted to 'bend' it.

if you cant answer the questions i pose, then perhaps its better to not attempt to answer them, but to suggest someones questions are not as valid as your 'views' is a little bit harsh, wouldnt you say?
 
All of the above are probably correct, to some degree, or not. However they are also sweeping generalisations, the myriad of individual circumstances make it difficult for anyone (including border control staff) to make decisions or take action.

In my case I have lived in France (17 years to date) and before that Germany and Holland and the UK. I have houses in the UK and France. I am a registered OAP in Germany with German pension (paid into my Crédit Agricole account) and a German OAP pass.

Ok I've got a British birth certificate and Passport, but my son has German birth certificate and passport.

It's going to be very difficult for any border controller to do anything, I suspect it will all pass by with a gallic shrug and no more than that.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Claire Ambler said:
Why all the debate? Nothing has been decided yet. Are we going to allow all from the EU unrestricted stay in the UK without having a similar agreement with them?
Click to expand...

Sorry NorthernSands, but as others have said, I think you're in the wrong place to debate why we're here.

As to the OP, if the French (for example) want to turf out British tourists every few weeks to teach them a lesson, then so be it. I suspect they are smarter than that, and won't want to harm their £80bn tourist industry (30% of it from foreign visitors) thats 10% of their entire economy.
Border controls are there primarily, I'd suggest, to prevent crime and illegal immigration. I don't believe the Schengen zone was introduced to prevent wealthy tourists from handing over vast wads of cash to French businesses. Relax all. Wait and see
 
A new electronic system is to launched recording your entry and exit as a third country status. Correct it is 90 days in 6 months only.
What everyone missed is that this has always been the requirement, however France has rarely enforced this rule, also we had the same law including a requirement to be self supporting, the UK choose not to enforce either.
So why one asks, perhaps cheap agricultural labour, who knows. It's called EES Link follows https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/mark...security/government/eborder/entry-exit-system
 
Claire Ambler said:
Why all the debate? Nothing has been decided yet. Are we going to allow all from the EU unrestricted stay in the UK without having a similar agreement with them?
Click to expand...
Exactly.. Well Said.
We will do whatever is decided by the elected government negotiations with EU.
As that is still being decided as we speak who knows how long or what consequences will happen next year. But it will happen because as a country we voted out!
 
MisterB said:
why is it totally besides the point, the truth is that no one knows how or whether it will be enforced. i am of the belief that it WILL be enforced, but curious to know how

if as you suggest, vehicles are impounded, arent you just a little bit curious as to how that might work ?

i am also interested to find out if you are more likely to be fined in one country than the next? who gets the money, how is it worked out.

i do not intend breaking the law and have in other posts suggested a travel visa might be an option, but if it isnt applied vigorously in one country, then i might be tempted to 'bend' it.

if you cant answer the questions i pose, then perhaps its better to not attempt to answer them, but to suggest someones questions are not as valid as your 'views' is a little bit harsh, wouldnt you say?
Click to expand...
You are perfectly entitled to your curiosity. I am not at all curious because the answers to all your 'questions' have very largely existed for decades, still are worldwide ex-Schengen, and will be the case come 01/01/2021.

The meat 'n potatoes of what I wrote are not my views. They are the way things have worked in the past or work now or, based on published information, will work post 01/01/2021

Think back to the way it was before UK became entitled to Freedom of Movement under [what is now] EU/Schengen law. You rocked up at Dover or wherever, showed your passport, got off at Calais, had it stamped by Gaston or Pierre and away you went. The same applies if you fly to, say, the US or NZ. On arrival at Port of Spain, Trinidad, recently I had my passport stamped. This included the 'leave-by' date. Simple. They checked it on my departure for over-stay.

There is no such thing as 'bending' a law. You either comply or not. Not doing so risks paying the penalty for contravention. That a law may not be 'vigorously enforced' does not mean that it is 'bendable'. Just that you have flouted it and got away with it - this time. I prefer to sleep easy by assuming that abiding by the law will keep me clear of the grief experienced by those who do not.

What does it profit you to know who gets the money? If you write to M. Barnier or Mme Legarde and they, by some miracle, told you, so what? It woud make absolutely no difference to any aspect of your life.

Vehicles impounded? Let me tell you. It happens all the time. I have been on the lookout for a LHD van to convert. There are companies handy to the UK ports which specialise in LHD vehicles. HM Customs seizes a vehicle for some reason. In due course, after the owner/driver has been dealt with, it is put to auction. Most end up in the hands of these dealers who specialise in the LHD vehicle market. So it will be with your m/h if it is impounded somewhere - tho' some countries favour the crusher ...

I do not see the benefit of speculation - other than as an innocent pastime - or wasting any of what remains of my functioning neurons on 'how that might work' with the looming loss of UK citizens FoM. I just bitterly regret that this right has been removed, to be replaced by the 90 day rule.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Fragle said:
Exactly.. Well Said.
We will do whatever is decided by the elected government negotiations with EU.
As that is still being decided as we speak who knows how long or what consequences will happen next year. But it will happen because as a country we voted out!
Click to expand...
I agree except that "As that is still being decided as we speak" does not apply to FoM. That was settled in the Withdrawal Agreement. Under the WA we know that for Brit citizens it's Schengen 90/180 days. That's it.
 
In Australia overstayers are fined and given a three year exclusion order from entering the country . I suspect that the new order In the schengan area will reflect this but there must be some leeway/appeal due to breakdown , sickness , etc .
 
Last edited:
Hilewaychile said:
I agree except that "As that is still being decided as we speak" does not apply to FoM. That was settled in the Withdrawal Agreement. Under the WA we know that for Brit citizens it's Schengen 90/180 days. That's it.
Click to expand...
Maybe so. but you say we are losing "freedom of movement".
We are not to be fair 90/180 days for the vast majority would be a dream. 2 weeks are the norm
 
MisterB said:
why is it totally besides the point, the truth is that no one knows how or whether it will be enforced. i am of the belief that it WILL be enforced, but curious to know how

if as you suggest, vehicles are impounded, arent you just a little bit curious as to how that might work ?

i am also interested to find out if you are more likely to be fined in one country than the next? who gets the money, how is it worked out.

i do not intend breaking the law and have in other posts suggested a travel visa might be an option, but if it isnt applied vigorously in one country, then i might be tempted to 'bend' it.

if you cant answer the questions i pose, then perhaps its better to not attempt to answer them, but to suggest someones questions are not as valid as your 'views' is a little bit harsh, wouldnt you say?
Click to expand...
The rule is enforced now for people from countries like the USA. I've met an American couple in France who knew they could only stay three months. Their arrival was recorded at their port of entry and when they left the dates would be checked. The EU is developing a new IT system which will come into use some time next year. It will cover all countries so you won't get away with overstaying by arriving in one country and leaving from another. 😀

The sanctions are covered on the EU's website. The most likely penalty will be you will be banned from re-entry for a period. The same site also stays over-staying is considered a serious offence. It also says long stay visas are very hard to get so I wouldn't plan on getting one.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
I am quite clear about the Schengen rules which will apply to UK citizens from 01.01.2021, but I have not found much information on what rules apply to vehicles/boats etc. (Boats may be different for boats since they are governed by international conventons)

I believe for physical persons who are inside Schengen on 01.01.2021, and have no entry date stamped in their passport, then that date will be deemed to be the entry date and the 90 days will run.

Will the same assumption be made for a vehicle? Does anybody know, or know where I can find the information?

Geoff
 
  • Like
Reactions: DBK
wilsonofthewizard said:
My understanding is that currently I/WE can stay within the Eurozone individual countries for up to 6 months in any Calendar year.
As a result I have been driving to and from Spain in my Estate Car twice each year.
I always take the Euro-tunnel Shuttle route and take 2 days to drive through France before entering Spain. I can then stay in Spain for say,3 months, before returning home to UK. I do this for April, May and June, then for September, October and November, each year.
I imagine that many Motorhomers do something similar.

From January 2021, I understand that MY/OUR stay in the Eurozone will be restricted to 90 days in any period of 180 days. A significant reduction, but entirely consistent with those Countries currently outside of the Eurozone.

Currently Eurozone Nationals can stay within UK for as long as we can stay within their Countries.Can the UK Government be lobbied/ pursuaded/ encouraged to strike a Deal with the Eurozone permitting their Nationals to remain within UK as now, so long as we remain within their Countries, as now i.e. maintain the status quo ?
And who will speak for the Motorhomers on this and any similar matters ?
Click to expand...
what we all should do is email your MP address is on the Government site, tell / him what you would like , ( most people think it a waste of time ) But if we all make the little effort they might take notice, MP's don't like too many emails. I email mine sometimes , mostly get an answer
 
nicholsong said:
I am quite clear about the Schengen rules which will apply to UK citizens from 01.01.2021, but I have not found much information on what rules apply to vehicles/boats etc. (Boats may be different for boats since they are governed by international conventons)

I believe for physical persons who are inside Schengen on 01.01.2021, and have no entry date stamped in their passport, then that date will be deemed to be the entry date and the 90 days will run.

Will the same assumption be made for a vehicle? Does anybody know, or know where I can find the information?

Geoff
Click to expand...

Look up the dreaded word 'Carnet', it should tell you all you need to know about temporary importation of equipment.
 
What is being proposed is similar to many other countries one would visit such as India where one's passport is stamped, one is photographed and fingerprinted on entry. With a maximum stay defined by the visa that has been purchase3d prior to entry.
 
nicholsong said:
I looked it up and nothing seems to apply to Europe.

Geoff
Click to expand...

That is because it doesn't, .......yet .....

Look at the rules from temporary importation into South Africa.
The EU customs authorities are already using the import/export rules (and forms) used for South Africa as the default for the UK until such time as other forms are introduced over the next few years
 
nicholsong said:
I looked it up and nothing seems to apply to Europe.

Geoff
Click to expand...
Before we joined the EU you needed a carnet if taking a trailer into Europe. It was a way of checking you didn't sell it while you were there. Essentially, it was recorded on entry into a country and then checked out when you left it. I can't remember if there were time limits, but there probably were as it was a system to cover temporary importation IIRC.
 
DBK said:
Before we joined the EU you needed a carnet if taking a trailer into Europe. It was a way of checking you didn't sell it while you were there. Essentially, it was recorded on entry into a country and then checked out when you left it. I can't remember if there were time limits, but there probably were as it was a system to cover temporary importation IIRC.
Click to expand...

Not many of us are old enough to remember European Carnets
They still exist for temporary importation from outside of the EU/Schengen
Which is why you dont see many Russian trucks on the roads, but lots of Poles, Lithuanian's etc

As from January next year they will apply to the UK, hence the rock bands doing European tours were already leaving the UK off the tour schedule for 2021.
 
glenn2926 said:
How will they know you haven’t been in say Switzerland which isn’t in the Eu?
Click to expand...
they don't have to .You have to prove you have not been in the EU over 90 days.
Claire Ambler said:
I understand that you can only stay 90 days in the schengen zone then you have to leave to either the UK or a non schengen zone country. There are a number to choose from. 🤫🤫🤫 Photo attached, or google itView attachment 402107
Click to expand...
Unfortuntely like Switzerland many which aren't in the EU or even the schegen area ,like Andorra, have no choice but to agree similar rules as totally landlocked by eu states means they either agree & comply or the borders to other eu states are shut. Blackmail I suppose.
Allanm said:
You keep quoting this but it is incorrect. After 3 months you can apply for residency if you wish to stay in that country. Spain may have different rules and your post may reflect them, but in France there is no automatic residency.
You can’t have residency in two different countries.
Click to expand...
I keep quoting it because it is.As others have said France, along with the Uk & others were feckless in there implementation & if the status quo had been mainatained nothing would have beena problem.Now in light of the Uk's exit the French attitude & the same for EU citizens in the UK is that all the problem is laid at there feet to be sorted out.
The actual original EU ditrective stated
" No state can confer the right of residency on a citizen.The citizen only, has the right to state " I am a Resident" . & you could do that immediately on entering a country. The only requirement that a country could ask was that a person be required to register. This was implemented in the directive to be required if a citizen of another state had been in the country for 90 consecutive days . no offence was committed by not registering as you could not be expelled/deported anyway. The offence committed was " failing to register" here in spain , Greece was the same & many others. The original directive also stated that after 90 consecutive days you automatically became a resident of that state,whether you registered or not, under EU rules. & which take precedent over national laws unless national laws offer better rights to the citizen.


Allanm said:
You can’t have residency in two different countries.
Click to expand...
Yes ,I know.
Hilewaychile said:
You only have to read up on the distressing situation of many EU citizens who have made UK their homes to realise that the going has been made extremely tough for them.
Click to expand...
& in many cases totally illegally.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Join us

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Back
Top