New and Second hand Motorhome prices !

[EuroTrotters]

Just reading a thread about a Liner for 2 here......

Carthago Liner for Two payload?

Hello helpful people! Can anyone please give me their thought on this…….https://www.morrisonmotors.co.uk/leisure-vehicles/fiat-ducato-linerfortwo/ From my limited knowledge and research I would think that the payload on this Motorhome is only 433kgs? But when I phoned the garage to ask they...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Its pushing 3 years old.

Where do this prices come from ?

2004 We bought a Eura Mobil 3 years old for £29,000

In 2009 we bought a 17 month Old Bespoke built 8m Frankia A Class. Mercedes Chassis and V6 3 litre Engine.

It was £59,950 and they even took my old Eura Mobil in part X for £28,500. So I chipped in the other £31k.

In 2013, we traded the Frankia in, £48,500 for a Brand New, but 3 year old build La Strada Nova for £60,000. So we paid £11,500 on top.

We sold that La Strada for £60,000 almost years later in 2016. It had a 3 litre V6 Engine with Auto Gearbox

At the Dusseldorf show, we went to the La Strada Stand. The latest La Strada Nova now starts at a whopping €170,000 with basic spec.

Madness.

I wish my earnings had gone up at that rate !

Are you all winning the Lotto ?

 

[Barchetta47]

Whether sales are rising, static or falling there’s close to 1m more of them in Europe since I started 7 years ago. I’m hoping none of them are parked in my spot in southern Europe this year!!!!

Serious point though MHs are sold to northern Europeans who need some where to park them in southern Europe in the winter…..

 

[TrudeandDall]

Could the dip in new registrations in 2022 have been due to the slowdown in production of new vehicles due to the pandemic and scarcity of components?
I think maybe….

Having tried and eventually succeeded in buying a new van in 2022, you are absolutely right, they were like hens teeth then.. Dealers could and did keep the prices at the top level..

 

[funflair]

I would have thought so.

I would like to see stats that break down the new motorhomes sold into sub - 3,500 and heavier.

My previous van was on an Iveco chassis and over 5 tons. It was a Hobby Sphinx. But Hobby now (I think) only make sub - 3.5 t vans. One obviously can't extrapolate from a single business decision by a single manufacturer, but I do wonder if there is a relative decline in the over - 3.5 t category.

I don't know but the over 3500kg high end builders that I follow are all expanding their production facilities and seem to have no problem selling vans despite the prices going stratospheric.

 

[jumar]

What year May I ask ?

Bought our first one in my late 30’s so much less around then

As a Spanish / EU resident , is that free of import tax ?

Yes.and we also would need to pay to have the vehicle re-maticulated...
But just now not considering this..
And when we do need to change...Germany would have many more high spec vans on offer...Spain still has a limited shop window..with the emphasis on family van style or panel vans for the younger end..we don't fall into either of these categories..

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[PaulW2]

I don't know but the over 3500kg high end builders that I follow are all expanding their production facilities and seem to have no problem selling vans despite the prices going stratospheric.

I guess a fair bit of that market may be driven by the German bureaucracy around driving licences. Their renewal criteria seem to be:

"Validity of driving licenses
All driving licenses of class 3 (now C1E) that were issued up to 01.01.1999 are valid for an unlimited period.
Class C1E driving licenses issued between 01.01.1999 and 27.12.2016 are limited to the age of 50.
The driving licenses issued from December 28, 2016 are only valid for five years.
If a driving license has been withdrawn, the dates of the new issue apply for the period of validity.
If you want to regain your driving license after its expiry, you have to apply for a new driving license."

So if I'm reading that correctly for a large group of people (pre-1999) there needn't be a medical at all, and for the remainder renewals are for 5 years.

 

[Carpmart]

No shortage of new Motorhomers actively using their new or used MoHo’s from what I can see on the ground! I think the number of people not parking them up and travelling extensively has definitely increased…

I have not seen anything on the BBC news and I’m not sure if Spain realise it’s happened, BUT, there has been a German invasion of SE Spain…

Where there was once a healthy mix of nationalities, 90% now are German…

 

[Brains]

No shortage of new Motorhomers actively using their new or used MoHo’s from what I can see on the ground! I think the number of people not parking them up and travelling extensively has definitely increased…

I have not seen anything on the BBC news and I’m not sure if Spain realise it’s happened, BUT, there has been a German invasion of SE Spain…

Where there was once a healthy mix of nationalities, 90% now are German…

I think the 'German Invasion' of Spain (Not the first if you read your history) is related to the weather, holiday dates and the need to get out after Christmas.
The 90 rule has got rid of a lot of Brits.
That still leaves the Dutch and the Scandi's but even all combined, there are lot less motorhomes owned compared to the Germans.

What is interesting is if you are driving down on the days they drive back, for hundreds of miles you are never out of sight of a motorhome coming in the opposite direction.

 

[Pausim]

So if I'm reading that correctly for a large group of people (pre-1999) there needn't be a medical at all, and for the remainder renewals are for 5 years.

When you are 70 all UK licenses, including B, have to be renewed every 3 years. At this point if you want to keep C1 you also have make a D2/D4 application which involves a medical.

 

[Pausim]

Its a bubble thats gonna pop.........

Carthago/Malibu opened a new factory in 2023 to increase their production by 3000 in 2024. Clearly they are not expecting anything to go pop.

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[PaulW2]

When you are 70 all UK licenses, including B, have to be renewed every 3 years. At this point if you want to keep C1 you also have make a D2/D4 application which involves a medical.

Yes, so heavier than 3,500 kg is a lot easier for Germans. Pre-1999 no medicals. Post-1999, medicals every 5 years.

UK pre-1997 licence medicals from 70 every 3 years. Post-1997 licence, medicals every 5 years until 65 for C1, then every single year.

If you're a German converter you may well see a path to future profitability as drivers choose to do 5-yearly medicals.
In the UK, that same future will entail annual medicals. A much trickier business model.

(I'm taking normal B licence renewal as relatively straightforward in all of this - but the German 5-yearly medical thing may potentially be more onerous than the UK's 3-yearly self-declaration thing. But for bigger vehicles it's all Deutschland.)

 

[SpeedyDux]

Carthago/Malibu opened a new factory in 2023 to increase their production by 3000 in 2024. Clearly they are not expecting anything to go pop.

Not an uncommon investment mistake, just as their country enters a recession. Their bosses and investors might regret this.

On top of that, the turmoil in the middle east could burst the MH price bubble. As well as affect other industries.

A recent Report by Begbies Traynor shows a steep rise in UK companies in financial trouble. I predict a bonanza for insolvency practitioners.

 

[Live Life Now]

Out of curiosity, why would the turmoil in the middle East burst this particular bubble?

 

[nicholsong]

I guess a fair bit of that market may be driven by the German bureaucracy around driving licences. Their renewal criteria seem to be:

"Validity of driving licenses
All driving licenses of class 3 (now C1E) that were issued up to 01.01.1999 are valid for an unlimited period.
Class C1E driving licenses issued between 01.01.1999 and 27.12.2016 are limited to the age of 50.
The driving licenses issued from December 28, 2016 are only valid for five years.
If a driving license has been withdrawn, the dates of the new issue apply for the period of validity.
If you want to regain your driving license after its expiry, you have to apply for a new driving license."

So if I'm reading that correctly for a large group of people (pre-1999) there needn't be a medical at all, and for the remainder renewals are for 5 years.

Here in Poland the C1 licence for age over 70 is for 5 years incl. medical. My next renewal is at age 83...and a half.

MOT equivalent, on my MH registered as 'Veteran' is not required at all, but I ask my garage to check it to that standard.

 

[VXman]

Just reading a thread about a Liner for 2 here......

Carthago Liner for Two payload?

Hello helpful people! Can anyone please give me their thought on this…….https://www.morrisonmotors.co.uk/leisure-vehicles/fiat-ducato-linerfortwo/ From my limited knowledge and research I would think that the payload on this Motorhome is only 433kgs? But when I phoned the garage to ask they...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Its pushing 3 years old.

Where do this prices come from ?

2004 We bought a Eura Mobil 3 years old for £29,000

In 2009 we bought a 17 month Old Bespoke built 8m Frankia A Class. Mercedes Chassis and V6 3 litre Engine.

It was £59,950 and they even took my old Eura Mobil in part X for £28,500. So I chipped in the other £31k.

In 2013, we traded the Frankia in, £48,500 for a Brand New, but 3 year old build La Strada Nova for £60,000. So we paid £11,500 on top.

We sold that La Strada for £60,000 almost years later in 2016. It had a 3 litre V6 Engine with Auto Gearbox

At the Dusseldorf show, we went to the La Strada Stand. The latest La Strada Nova now starts at a whopping €170,000 with basic spec.

Madness.

I wish my earnings had gone up at that rate !

Are you all winning the Lotto ?

Isn't this one overpriced anyway? Seems it's cheaper to buy a brand new one according to this....

liner-for-two Grundrisse & Daten

Unique. Innovative. Extravagant. The new liner-for-two. Our perfect motorhome for travelling couples. Floor plans & data here ➤

www.carthago.com

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[VXman]

Out of curiosity, why would the turmoil in the middle East burst this particular bubble?

Increase in oil prices, increase in cost of living, increase in cost of everything could mean less money around to buy frivolous items such as motorhomes.

 

[PaulW2]

Increase in oil prices, increase in cost of living, increase in cost of everything could mean less money around to buy frivolous items such as motorhomes.

Germany's in a world of pain anyway. Economy shrank in 2023, may also shrink 2024. Consumers are saving, companies holding back on investment. Bickering among the three coalition partners. Scholz looking weak. Their own Finance minister Christian Lindner told Davos that Germany is the "tired man" of Europe and needs a "strong cup of coffee". Hamstrung by their own bureaucracy, high energy prices, needing to make structural reforms.

The Ukrainian crisis continues. US election looming. All indications that Germany will have to become better at the military malarkey. Still spending under 2% of GDP on defence.

Key European relations such as the Franco-German axis awkward.

 

[gus-lopez]

A couple of days ago we drove around Chartres and the Chausson dealership had a long line of models with -€13k to -€7k in the windows.

& Dreux,evreux, etc ; all down the A10 through France.I've rarely seen a dealer short of stock each year I travel in both directions.

We spend a bit...not a lot, on keeping it going..

I had my hopes up of grabbing a bargain until your second post

Possibly but it looks to me like there is a steady decline in new motorhome sales from a peak in 2021.

Here "caravanning type vehicles" fell 20% in 2022 compared to 2021 & actually were back to 2017 levels.MH's as in graph fell 29% 2022 to 2021.
Here; google translate ;

https://neomotor.epe.es/industria/e...22-por-la-crisis-de-los-componentes-MG1118178

Graph towards bottom shows the types

As a Spanish / EU resident , is that free of import tax ?

AS jumar said no. You pay 4,1% of the gov.es price ,not what you paid for it.
Gov.es have a yearly modified price list of all & every type of vehicle sold in spain , car,van,pick up,truck ,boat both sail & engine,etc, along with a percentage calculator. You find year of vehicle scroll to price then multiply by 4,1% = tax to pay.
If vehicle is new & less than 1 year old then you pay 100% of the price x 4,1%. It drops 10% each year older until 10 years when it remains at 10% for ever.

I guess a fair bit of that market may be driven by the German bureaucracy around driving licences. Their renewal criteria seem to be:

"Validity of driving licenses
All driving licenses of class 3 (now C1E) that were issued up to 01.01.1999 are valid for an unlimited period.
Class C1E driving licenses issued between 01.01.1999 and 27.12.2016 are limited to the age of 50.
The driving licenses issued from December 28, 2016 are only valid for five years.
If a driving license has been withdrawn, the dates of the new issue apply for the period of validity.
If you want to regain your driving license after its expiry, you have to apply for a new driving license."

So if I'm reading that correctly for a large group of people (pre-1999) there needn't be a medical at all, and for the remainder renewals are for 5 years.

Basically 'grandfather rights' for pre-1999 as Germany ,along with Norway, had to modify there driving licence validity to comply with EU laws. It didn't actually happen until a few years back ,if I remember correctly, as they were worried to death how it would be taken.
Germany used to have a licence validity "Until death" whereas Norway had it "Until age 100".Both had to comply with the directive that states 10 years to age 70 for 'B' & 5 years for 'C1E'.then 5 years & 3 years.
Spain had to increase theirs as it was 5 years & 3 years up to age 70. It is now 10/% up to 70 & 5/3 over but a medical is always required for renewal from age 18 when you can take the test.

90% now are German…

They are everywhere .Far more noticeable than previous years & the French appear to have reduced back to the levels here before they were warned off Morocco? I wonder if they have returned there?

 

[Lenny HB]

Isn't this one overpriced anyway? Seems it's cheaper to buy a brand new one according to this....

liner-for-two Grundrisse & Daten

Unique. Innovative. Extravagant. The new liner-for-two. Our perfect motorhome for travelling couples. Floor plans & data here ➤

www.carthago.com

You have forgotten to add £20k of options you wouldn't buy it without & the one for sale had a lot more.
Even the cheap little Compactline we have on order has £17k of options on it & I'll be spending at least another £12k on it, probably more.

 

[VXman]

You have forgotten to add £20k of options you wouldn't buy it without & the one for sale had a lot more.
Even the cheap little Compactline we have on order has £17k of options on it & I'll be spending at least another £12k on it, probably more.

Yes, but it is priced in Euros. That's about £150k in sterling so there's your 20K. I am aware there could be other cost differences if buying a UK van. But there is still the 3 year age difference to factor in.

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[Peavy]

there has been a German invasion of SE Spain

Let's promote a DExit!
...just kidding

 

[nicholsong]

Increase in oil prices, increase in cost of living, increase in cost of everything could mean less money around to buy frivolous items such as motorhomes.

Frivolous? Get thee behind me Satan!

I spend less on a 10 week MH tour than I spent on 5 days at Christmas in a 5* hotel in Malta - that is frivolous - but I have whipped myself with birch sticks and won't do it again.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Out of curiosity, why would the turmoil in the middle East burst this particular bubble?

Increase in oil prices, increase in cost of living, increase in cost of everything could mean less money around to buy frivolous items such as motorhomes.

This ^^^^^

As a consequence of Israel's operations against Hamas in Gaza, and now the US-led airstrikes against the Houthis, we might see a re-run of the period after the Yom Kippur War, when the Arab countries joined together to use their "oil weapon" against the West for supporting Israel. The partial embargo, and sudden rapid increase in the price per barrel that nearly quadrupled the price of oil in 1974, together triggered a deep recession. The UK government issued petrol ration books although in the end they weren't used. I remember queuing for petrol at the pumps nd being restricted iin how much petrol I could buy each time. Driving around with the petrol gauge needle in the red. It was very difficult to find a job. Hard times. In 1975 it took 107 job applications before I got an interview. A very deep recession that affected many people not just me.

After the credit crunch of 2008, the UK luxury MH market all but disappeared. £70K became a ceiling price for the MH market. That was about the going rate for the average 4.5 tonne 8m twin rear axle MH in those days. Advertised big discounts were commonplace.

A lot depends on how much pressure the Arabs put on their leaders to take action in support of Gaza (and Hamas) and also to punish the West for bombing Yemen. The Arab ruling families will be terrified of uprisings that could end up with them being deposed. To some extent that also applies to the military generals ruling Egypt, which controls the Suez Canal as well as the border crossing into Gaza used for relief supplies.

 

[VXman]

Frivolous? Get thee behind me Satan!

I spend less on a 10 week MH tour than I spent on 5 days at Christmas in a 5* hotel in Malta - that is frivolous - but I have whipped myself with birch sticks and won't do it again.

True, I agree, motorhomes = value for money holidays!!! (Particularly if you don't stay on CAMC or CCC sites!)

However, if I had no money spare I wouldn't view my motorhome as an essential.

 

[Live Life Now]

This ^^^^^

As a consequence of Israel's operations against Hamas in Gaza, and now the US-led airstrikes against the Houthis, we might see a re-run of the period after the Yom Kippur War, when the Arab countries joined together to use their "oil weapon" against the West for supporting Israel. The partial embargo, and sudden rapid increase in the price per barrel that nearly quadrupled the price of oil in 1974, together triggered a deep recession. The UK government issued petrol ration books although in the end they weren't used. I remember queuing for petrol at the pumps nd being restricted iin how much petrol I could buy each time. Driving around with the petrol gauge needle in the red. It was very difficult to find a job. Hard times. In 1975 it took 107 job applications before I got an interview. A very deep recession that affected many people not just me.

After the credit crunch of 2008, the UK luxury MH market all but disappeared. £70K became a ceiling price for the MH market. That was about the going rate for the average 4.5 tonne 8m twin rear axle MH in those days. Advertised big discounts were commonplace.

A lot depends on how much pressure the Arabs put on their leaders to take action in support of Gaza (and Hamas) and also to punish the West for bombing Yemen. The Arab ruling families will be terrified of uprisings that could end up with them being deposed. To some extent that also applies to the military generals ruling Egypt, which controls the Suez Canal as well as the border crossing into Gaza used for relief supplies.

So many if, should and maybes rather reminds me that if my uncle wore a bra would he really be my auntie, or, if my auntie wore braces would she really be my uncle.
Even in this day and age, make that especially in this day and age, I think that surmising (that means to guess something without having much or any proof.) is never helpful.

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[Lenny HB]

Yes, but it is priced in Euros. That's about £150k in sterling so there's your 20K. I am aware there could be other cost differences if buying a UK van. But there is still the 3 year age difference to factor in.

Current UK price on that Liner is £176,250 plus £2,500 for delivery so £178,750, with the spec on that one new price would be around £210,00. Still no discounts on Carthago's.

That second hand price is too high & it's only done 5000 miles that's not good means it's been sitting around a lot. I really don't understand why people are prepared to pay more for very low mileage.

Also with the extras on that van there is no way you could run it legally on the Ducato chassis.

 

[ianp]

plus £2,500 for delivery

is that to the dealers or to your home....?

 

[Ditcha]

Even the cheap little Compactline we have on order has £17k of options on it & I'll be spending at least another £12k on it, probably more.

That's if the boss rubber stamps it

 

[Lenny HB]

That's if the boss rubber stamps it

That is a slight stumbling block.

 

[Lenny HB]

is that to the dealers or to your home....?

To the dealers, on the road price.

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[Barchetta47]

Still no discounts on Carthago's.

Oh no it’s started..,

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