Motorhome too heavy

[Norfolk Nomad]

Following Minxy Girls recommendation, I used JR Consultancy to increase the plated weight of my Hymer to 4000Kg. Very impressed by the service, all completed in 2 weeks, if only DVLA were so quick, took them 4 weeks to return the V5.

 

[Blue Knight]

@Blue Knight

Andrew, below is the email I sent to John when I uprated our FamilyScout along with the documents/photos he needed, if you do this you shouldn't have any problems at all, feel free to copy it.

Note that I only asked for 4250kg but you should be able to go to 4500kg (total of both axles) if you want but it would be impossible to get the camper loaded exactly at that so I wasn't bothered.

Dear John

Further to my husband's (Chris) conversation with you today below are details of our camper which we wish to uprate from it's current MAM of 3500kg to 4250kg which we believe the vehicle in its current form is capable of being changed to without modification (the converter's COC shows that the weights are unchanged from the original vehicle supplied to them):

Reg No: FX15 RRZ (registered 7 May 2015)
VIN No: ZFA2500000*******
Vehicle: Fiat Ducato X250 Maxi 150 XLWB
Model Name: Globecar FamilyScout L (part of the Dethleffs group)​

The weights shown on both the Fiat and Dethleffs (converter) VINs are:

MTPLM: 3500kg (to uprate to 4250kg)
Train: 6500kg (no change required)
Front Axle: 2100kg (no change required)
Rear Axle: 2400kg (no change required)​

I attach the following information in Word document:

1. 
   
   
   • Copy of V5C
   • Dethleffs (Globecar) Certificate of Conformity
   • Photos of Fiat and Dethleffs VIN Plates & Photo of camper (showing registration number)
   • Photos of base vehicle ID, logos and tyre details

Please let me know if you need any more information.

Kind regards

Thanks Mel, I really appreciate your help.

I've just got off the phone from speaking with John and he's a really helpful chappy.

I'll use your template above to fire off an email to him today.

He's explained the whole process to me and FYI the total cost (incl VAT) is £180 but that's still only 50% of what SV Tech is charging.

All good so far.

Mel - you're a star

Andrew

 

[Minxy]

Nice one Andrew, I know I got it very cheap as I was his first customer but he then got bombarded by others and I think realised that what he was charging for his time etc wasn't realistic, hence the rise in the price, but still cheap compared to SVTech ...

 

[Hughman]

Hi Minxy,

I did just the same with our Possl Roadcruiser (which I guess is a very similar layout to yours, though a 2013 model on which we've put 60k miles in 5 years). I knew we were overweight at 3.5 T when loaded, as we also have awning, satellite, solar panel and Busbiker to carry 2 e-bikes. I used SVtech as the other guy wasn't around then.

We do a lot of driving abroad and I wondered what you do now you're uprated as regards tolls etc. We've got a Sanef tag that we use in France, masquerading as under 3.5 T; ditto in Austria - we buy a 10 euro vignette rather than the very expensive Go Box. Belgium now also charges over 3.5 T and we've just ignored that.

All well and good so far, but I always feel slightly edgy in case we get pulled, so I'd be interested to know your policy on tolls.

The obvious solutions are either to pay full rates, or stop using toll roads. The latter may be the answer in the end, but we still tend to need to crack on with long journeys as my other half is still working and has limited holiday time.

 

[Minxy]

I didn't need to do an uprate for my current camper as the dealer managed to do it at first registration, but I had contacted John in case I still had to do it myself and this was the lovely response I got from him:

Hello Mel,​

It is nice to hear from you again, I have been wanting to get in touch with you for a long time to thank you for your kind words about me on the Motorhome Forum but I lost your Email address but now I can say a belated thank you very much. Back in 2015 I started in the motorhome business by accident having been in heavy vehicles almost all of my life working closely with the DVLA and the DVSA. The DVLA gave my name and telephone, number to a motorhomer who was looking for help and here we are today!​

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/jr-consultancy.174505/#post-2818474

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[funflair]

Hi Minxy,

I did just the same with our Possl Roadcruiser (which I guess is a very similar layout to yours, though a 2013 model on which we've put 60k miles in 5 years). I knew we were overweight at 3.5 T when loaded, as we also have awning, satellite, solar panel and Busbiker to carry 2 e-bikes. I used SVtech as the other guy wasn't around then.

We do a lot of driving abroad and I wondered what you do now you're uprated as regards tolls etc. We've got a Sanef tag that we use in France, masquerading as under 3.5 T; ditto in Austria - we buy a 10 euro vignette rather than the very expensive Go Box. Belgium now also charges over 3.5 T and we've just ignored that.

All well and good so far, but I always feel slightly edgy in case we get pulled, so I'd be interested to know your policy on tolls.

The obvious solutions are either to pay full rates, or stop using toll roads. The latter may be the answer in the end, but we still tend to need to crack on with long journeys as my other half is still working and has limited holiday time.

You should find that Belgium only charges for over 3500kg commercials.

Martin

 

[Minxy]

We do a lot of driving abroad and I wondered what you do now you're uprated as regards tolls etc. We've got a Sanef tag that we use in France, masquerading as under 3.5 T; ditto in Austria - we buy a 10 euro vignette rather than the very expensive Go Box. Belgium now also charges over 3.5 T and we've just ignored that.

All well and good so far, but I always feel slightly edgy in case we get pulled, so I'd be interested to know your policy on tolls.

We don't use toll roads so that's our policy. However, if we did use them, we 'might' pretend to be 3500kg as with a PVC it's not easy to determine which class it is just by looking at it ... I still have the original 3500kg weight plate on the driver's door pillar, with the 4250kg one I made on the passenger's side, so I 'could' just open the appropriate door depending on what's being checked! Of course, the V5C has the correct weight on it so if they looked at that the plates would be irrelevant.

The only place we need to be careful of is Switzerland as you need something there if you're over 3500kg just using normal roads so we tend to have routes that don't go that way normally which isn't difficult.

 

[Minxy]

I'm afraid you can't do it yourself, I looked into it in great detail when I wanted to uprate our previous Globecar, speaking to many people at DVSA, DVLA etc and they MUST have an engineers report to confirm that the vehicle in question is capable of being used at the higher weight safely. A horsebox that had previously been registered at a higher weight could probably be up and down plated as you suggest but one that has never been uprated I suspect wouldn't be able to be without and engineers confirmation.

With reference to the above, I've just been informed that you 'may' be able to do it yourself if you have an Autotrail but only upto 3650kg as it appears that AT have pre-done the work via Type Approval that the engineer would be doing to get the vehicles rated at 3650kg so their customers don't need to do it:

Because the model is type approved to either gross weight, it is a simple task to change – either up to 3650 kg or down to 3500 kg – without making any technical alteration to your motorhome.
​

More info here:

​

I'd put money on their 'having' to do this because some of their MHs have such a low payload they wouldn't be usable otherwise (maybe I'm just too synical!), but I'm not aware of any other converters that have done this.

However it wouldn't allow any uprate past 3650kg without going via either SVTech or JR from what I can fathom and I doubt AT would provide paperwork for the higher weight anyway, even if they did would likely charged for it too.

If an AT at 3650kg is sufficient then obviously the owner wouldn't have to pay for the docs etc, but I suspect even at that most would still struggle.

 

[Burgo]

I'm afraid you can't do it yourself, I looked into it in great detail when I wanted to uprate our previous Globecar, speaking to many people at DVSA, DVLA etc and they MUST have an engineers report to confirm that the vehicle in question is capable of being used at the higher weight safely.

In that case, if the upgrade is offers as an option from new in the manufacturers spec (as Detheffs do in the case of the OP's T7) then I would assume the manufacturer would be able to supply a suitable report. Worth just emailing them and asking?

 

[Minxy]

In that case, if the upgrade is offers as an option from new in the manufacturers spec (as Detheffs do in the case of the OP's T7) then I would assume the manufacturer would be able to supply a suitable report. Worth just emailing them and asking?

Definitely worth a try but some manufacturer's won't entertain you, if you email or contact Globecar for example they just refer you to SMC. As Globecar are part of Dethleffs it may be the same with them.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[GWAYGWAY]

My hymer was rated at 3500kg when I bought it in October despite all the plates on the van saying 3900kg when I contacted dvla to get it sorted they told me it's been 3500kg since first registration.
I can say that I'm currently on the 3900kg when loaded and I think it would be impossible to run this van at 3500kg so it's probably been running around 14years and 95000 miles overweight

If you were stoped for a check the VOSA bloke would look at the plate on the vehicle and use that weight, he doesn't know individual vehicle weightonly those on the plate

 

[Brucek]

With reference to the above, I've just been informed that you 'may' be able to do it yourself if you have an Autotrail but only upto 3650kg as it appears that AT have pre-done the work via Type Approval that the engineer would be doing to get the vehicles rated at 3650kg so their customers don't need to do it:

Because the model is type approved to either gross weight, it is a simple task to change – either up to 3650 kg or down to 3500 kg – without making any technical alteration to your motorhome.
​

More info here:

​

I'd put money on their 'having' to do this because some of their MHs have such a low payload they wouldn't be usable otherwise (maybe I'm just too synical!), but I'm not aware of any other converters that have done this.

However it wouldn't allow any uprate past 3650kg without going via either SVTech or JR from what I can fathom and I doubt AT would provide paperwork for the higher weight anyway, even if they did would likely charged for it too.

If an AT at 3650kg is sufficient then obviously the owner wouldn't have to pay for the docs etc, but I suspect even at that most would still struggle.

So it seems that I could up plate my AT V line 540SE from 3500 to 3650kg with minimal effort (Thank you for the link @Minxy Girl) and it appears that I would save £85 p.a. in road tax as a private HGV.

I don't really have any weight issues, although the extra 150kg would be reassuring

But what are the downsides? Apart from higher toll charges (France only?) does this affect my speed limits in the UK or the EU? I do understand the driving licence implications.

In other words, although my weighbridge weight of 2860kg puts me firmly in the under 3050 Unladen Weight catagory, does the Private HGV classification override this?

Sorry to ask, I have tried to research this online but the information is confusing.

 

[Northernraider]

If you were stoped for a check the VOSA bloke would look at the plate on the vehicle and use that weight, he doesn't know individual vehicle weightonly those on the plate

Aye but if they checked the tax group it was plg not phgv

 

[Minxy]

So it seems that I could up plate my AT V line 540SE from 3500 to 3650kg with minimal effort (Thank you for the link @Minxy Girl) and it appears that I would save £85 p.a. in road tax as a private HGV.

One bonus of having it registered over 3500kg ... daft I know but nice to have! Oh, it was another funster who messaged me with the info, not sure if they want mentioning by name so I haven't, but if they do they can say themselves.

But what are the downsides? Apart from higher toll charges (France only?) does this affect my speed limits in the UK or the EU? I do understand the driving licence implications.

In other words, although my weighbridge weight of 2860kg puts me firmly in the under 3050 Unladen Weight catagory, does the Private HGV classification override this?

Your permitted UK speed limits will remain unchanged as it is based on the unladen weight so you can legitimately travel at the higher speeds that cars do, however abroad they work on the MTPLM weight so if you're over 3500kg you will have the lower speed limits. We rarely travel at the maximum though so we don't worry about it.

 

[CazPaul]

Thanks Mel, I really appreciate your help.

I've just got off the phone from speaking with John and he's a really helpful chappy.

I'll use your template above to fire off an email to him today.

He's explained the whole process to me and FYI the total cost (incl VAT) is £180 but that's still only 50% of what SV Tech is charging.

All good so far.

Mel - you're a star

Andrew

I can't get through to him Andrew and my email wasn't answered, do you have a contact number?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PeteH]

@PeteH I am afraid that if this was to happen then the manufacturers would simply use different materials or add more to the vehicles and the weight situation would remain the same!

I see your point, but if you go and look at (for instance) the Alko website. Most of the existing chassis cab unit combinations, (on which the vast majority of Motorhomes are built) can already be run at higher ratings. The issue is Bureaucracy. Eg; Most French produced `vans are under 3500kg because of French domestic licence rules. Many can be (like mine was) "uprated a birth" so to speak. Dealers dont do it because they can sell to B1 licence holders, who then hold the can when they overload just by putting "Mrs average" in the passenger seat!. Manufacturers dont have the incentive to build heavier that would increase costs and there is no mileage in so doing as the SAME cab and chassis combinations have comercial uses and (again) payload is king. There are a lot of "white vans" out there driven daily by youngsters with ONLY a B1. who are regularly overloaded for the restriction on their licence. (not the vehicle) And who should actually have a C1.

 

[Pausim]

There are a lot of "white vans" out there driven daily by youngsters with ONLY a B1. who are regularly overloaded for the restriction on their licence. (not the vehicle) And who should actually have a C1.

No doubt you are right but I think it is far from clear what laws they are breaking. Certainly overloading is an offence and is subject to fines. However, the question of license infringement is far less clear. The law says that you can drive a vehicle of up to 3500kg maximum authorised mass on a B license and as far as I can see that mam classification doesn’t change when the vehicle is overloaded. Conversely a vehicle with a mam of 3650 still requires a C1 license even if its loaded weight is less than 3500kg. After many hours of digging I haven’t found a definitive answer but it seems to me that the license requirement relates to the mam of the vehicle not the actual weight.

I have asked the DVLA for an answer to this question and so far have got back only ambiguous replies. This could mean they don’t understand the question, or that they don’t know the answer or perhaps more likely they do know the answer but would rather not admit it. So far as I am concerned the jury is out. However, on the basis that I am clear that you need a C1 license to drive a vehicle with a mam over 3500kg even if actually weighs 3400kg I suspect you only need a B license to drive a vehicle with a mam of less than 3500kg even if it is overloaded. Of course you would still be breaking the law, possibly in several ways but I am beginning to think that driving without a license may not be one of them. Has anyone ever heard of a prosecution for being unlicensed because of overloading? The advice to DVSA staff on overloading makes no mention of it.

I am awaiting a further response from the DVLA but I am not holding my breath on getting a clear answer.

 

[Blue Knight]

I can't get through to him Andrew and my email wasn't answered, do you have a contact number?

I used the following details Paul which I found on one of Mel's posts.

I tried the 01359 number first but didn't get through - this must be his Mon-Fri number.

I then used the 01244# and got through straight away but I caught him before he went shopping with his missus so I assume this is his home/office number.

The truckcon@outlook.com is the one required for all of your official correspondence.

I'm not sure you'll get much luck today sir.

 

[gus-lopez]

I am awaiting a further response from the DVLA but I am not holding my breath on getting a clear answer.

It took me 12 emails on a completely unrelated enquiry to eventually find someone who knew the answer . I had also asked the question of the EU solvit at the same time as I knew the dvla would go around in circles. On one email they even answered questions I had not asked but failed to address the 5 I had .
But as far as I am concerned you are completely correct. You cant bedriving " not in accordance with licenec " if it is just overweight.

 

[PeteH]

Perhaps a (more) "definitive" answer would come from asking the Vehicles INSURER If overloading to the point that the drivers licence was technically invalid. Would be grounds for reducing cover to Third Party Only in the event of an accident?.

As per the Section from my Current Policy:-

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

Perhaps a (more) "definitive" answer would come from asking the Vehicles INSURER If overloading to the point that the drivers licence was technically invalid. Would be grounds for reducing cover to Third Party Only in the event of an accident?.

As per the Section from my Current Policy:-

View attachment 281359

If my earlier argument is correct (and I am not saying it is) then you would not be breaching the insurance section quoted. If as I believe may be the case the license relates to the classification of the vehicle and not its actual weight in use then you would still be complying with the clause. I do not think the vehicle classification changes because it is either over or underloaded and the license appears to be tied to the MAM classification not the actual weight in use.

The last DVLA response included the following “a category B driving licence allows you to drive vehicles of up to 3500kg maximum authorised mass”. It did not say a B license entitles you to drive vehicles weighing up to 3500kg, which would mean something different. However, I must admit the rest of the reply went on to muddy the issue by telling me what I should and should not do, but that appeared to be opinion rather law.

 

[Minxy]

I used the following details Paul which I found on one of Mel's posts.

I tried the 01359 number first but didn't get through - this must be his Mon-Fri number.

I then used the 01244# and got through straight away but I caught him before he went shopping with his missus so I assume this is his home/office number.

John flits between two properties, one near Chester and one near Ipswitch, hence the 2 numbers.

 

[Minxy]

Surely to find out the 'legal' (ie if you can be fined etc) situation it would be better to ask a copper as they are the ones who would fine you?

 

[PeteH]

If my earlier argument is correct (and I am not saying it is) then you would not be breaching the insurance section quoted. If as I believe may be the case the license relates to the classification of the vehicle and not its actual weight in use then you would still be complying with the clause. I do not think the vehicle classification changes because it is either over or underloaded and the license appears to be tied to the MAM classification not the actual weight in use.

The last DVLA response included the following “a category B driving licence allows you to drive vehicles of up to 3500kg maximum authorised mass”. It did not say a B license entitles you to drive vehicles weighing up to 3500kg, which would mean something different. However, I must admit the rest of the reply went on to muddy the issue by telling me what I should and should not do, but that appeared to be opinion rather law.

I would not like to have to argue that with ANY insurer. Having had "time" in the insurance "game" I know how their minds work.

 

[Pausim]

I would not like to have to argue that with ANY insurer. Having had "time" in the insurance "game" I know how their minds work.

I don’t intend to put it to the test but I would still be interested in hearing of any cases where the Police, DVSA or insurers have actually made a licensing issue out of an overloading incident.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[WESTY66]

I don’t intend to put it to the test but I would still be interested in hearing of any cases where the Police, DVSA or insurers have actually made a licensing issue out of an overloading incident.

I’d me more interested if they would pay out on the Moho in case of an accident!!

 

[robert groves]

Insurance companies will move Heaven and Earth to avoid payout !....If they have the Slightest suspicion that the van might be overweight.....

 

[Rds559]

We have Bailey 75-2 which comes out of factory at 3850kg but down rated to 3500kg so it could be driven on a car licence.
I’m going to up rate it back to 3850kg it just a paper transaction I went to Sv tech they wanted £260+vat but now going to use JR Consultancy he can doing in a week cost £180 no vat tel 01359250808.
If you want to do it yourself call DVSA for the forms no cost not done this my self.
Hope this helps.

 

[Rimswell Wanderer]

Our motorhome is always over-full. So, after head-in-sand for a few years, visited weighbridge and surprise surprise, not where where we should be ............ and that was without my co-pilot! Suggested she followed behind in a taxi but poor response!!! and that didn't cover what to do about the beer and wine. So, considering up-rating to give and extra 250/300kg.for food, wine and of course my wife.
Anyone done this, are there downsides, such as where you can/cannot go, ferry/tunnel prices, speed limits here and in France etc.

 

[Rimswell Wanderer]

Our motorhome is always over-full. So, after head-in-sand for a few years, visited weighbridge and surprise surprise, not where where we should be ............ and that was without my co-pilot! Suggested she followed behind in a taxi but poor response!!! and that didn't cover what to do about the beer and wine. So, considering up-rating to give and extra 250/300kg.for food, wine and of course my wife.
Anyone done this, are there downsides, such as where you can/cannot go, ferry/tunnel prices, speed limits here and in France etc.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}