Motorhome evolution in a diesel-banned future

[Feday]

What about a small folding wind generator like a sat dish on your motorhome roof, so when static your always recharching batteries wind it up like a dish then mother natures gives it a little kiss ..as well as solar i assume.

 

[vwalan]

It wouldn't work. We would have to turn over vast swathes of the country to growing fuel crops which would push out food crops and basic economics dictates that food prices would shoot up....

dont think everyone would use it , but many have been for years .
its renewable and clean burning .

 

[vwalan]

What about a small folding wind generator like a sat dish on your motorhome roof, so when static your always recharching batteries wind it up like a dish then mother natures gives it a little kiss ..as well as solar i assume.

useless bits of kit . they dont really cope very well with just coping with leisure batteries .

 

[tonyidle]

"Clean" needs to be defined when discussing vehicle pollution. Petrol and Diesel engines output various nasties in varying quantities. These outputs are minimised by catalytic converters, particulate filters, Adblu, improved fuelling and burn, etc. LPG produces few nasties and is regarded as clean - as is CNG. However all are hydrocarbons and all produce CO2 which is the contributor to global warming. CO2 cannot easily be removed from vehicle exhausts and is one of the measures used to calculate Road Tax. It is the measure by which companies are judged. The only totally clean fuels, and only then at the point of use, are hydrogen and electricity. Hydrogen burned in an ICE is still likely to produce one of the nasties in that to burn hydrogen you need air. Air contains more nitrogen than oxygen so a hydrogen powered car will produce oxides of nitrogen as well as water. NOx emission is the reason for cats and Adblu.

 

[RogerThat]

What about a small folding wind generator like a sat dish on your motorhome roof,

I was wondering why electric cars don't have these fitted already? Not on the roof though

As there is no 'engine' as such, why don't they put some fans behind where the traditional radiator would have been? Then all the time you're moving, you'd be generating electricity and charging the batteries.

Seems almost too simple? I guess fans/motors like this simply couldn't output enough electricity to warrant implementing something like this?

Ps. Fascinating thread, thanks for all the insightful input everyone

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PhilG]

Guy across the road has a Prius, and a massive woodburner.. he doesnt see the irony.

I guess as long as people are going to buy these 'save the planet' cars , its leaves more fossil fuel for me to burn, so i shouldnt moan.

LTI are building a new Hybrid black cab, has an onboard generator to charge the batteries apparently. I'm shaking my head at that .

Its interesting to know,that since the subsides for solar power have been dropped , especially in the US, that the solar market has taken a huge dive.

 

[barsteward]

So has anyone seen this?
http://www.greenmatters.com/living/2017/08/31/ZHQvPu/solar-rv

 

[tonyidle]

So has anyone seen this?
http://www.greenmatters.com/living/2017/08/31/ZHQvPu/solar-rv

A good headline-grabber and will make some think more seriously about electric power maybe. But that's all. A serious attempt would, as well as making the vehicle as aerodynamic as possible, maximise the surface area for solar and perhaps use composite materials in a stressed shell. I still think an electric MH will be built on the back of a ready-built electric commercial vehicle.

 

[mjltigger]

A good headline-grabber and will make some think more seriously about electric power maybe. But that's all. A serious attempt would, as well as making the vehicle as aerodynamic as possible, maximise the surface area for solar and perhaps use composite materials in a stressed shell. I still think an electric MH will be built on the back of a ready-built electric commercial vehicle.

It is.. an iveco I think

The interesting bit about the dethleffs concept is that they have done away with gas and covered it in solar. They seem to be claiming the solar is enough for zero charging but of course that's only going to work some days. The wireless charging is interesting. Site pitches with charge loops built in so we can do away with ehu leads??

 

[funflair]

I was wondering why electric cars don't have these fitted already? Not on the roof though

As there is no 'engine' as such, why don't they put some fans behind where the traditional radiator would have been? Then all the time you're moving, you'd be generating electricity and charging the batteries.

Seems almost too simple? I guess fans/motors like this simply couldn't output enough electricity to warrant implementing something like this?

Ps. Fascinating thread, thanks for all the insightful input everyone

That sounds like an attempt at perpetual motion

Martin

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

I was wondering why electric cars don't have these fitted already? Not on the roof though

As there is no 'engine' as such, why don't they put some fans behind where the traditional radiator would have been? Then all the time you're moving, you'd be generating electricity and charging the batteries.

Seems almost too simple? I guess fans/motors like this simply couldn't output enough electricity to warrant implementing something like this?

Ps. Fascinating thread, thanks for all the insightful input everyone

It's a nice idea, but unfortunately the fans will cause drag and absorb energy, and due to friction and other losses the amount of electrical energy produced by the fan driven Generator would be slightly less than the energy they absorb, so the overall result would be to drain the batteries slightly more. The natural law of conservation of energy applies. The big static wind generators could be used to generate power to supply the charging points along with solar and wave power.

Anyway, this has been a fascinating thread, and thanks to @AlaskaGuy for brining it up. It kept me interested all through Sunday! It generated a lot of interest. I think that a general summary of the output is that we will soon see hybrid vans ( like a big Prius) and then motorhomes based on the same chassis. Possibly the 3500 tonne limit will be increased to 4500 to allow for battery weight. We will probably then start to phase out separate leisure batteries, and it could reduce the use of roof mounted solar (to keep weight down). Vehicle design will concentrate more on reducing weight and drag ( more pointy front ends) by better engineering design and use of more plastics and alloys. The batteries will be the LiPO4 type with the clean extraction process. As the infrastructure develops we will start to see more wind farms and solar arrays and a growing number of charge points. Once this is in place the vans will start to transition to the "plug-in EV" technology and the Moho builders will adopt those chassis. Oh yeah, and we will start to use multi spoke alloy wheels, so we can all peg playing cards on to make the noise!

 

[The Dudess]

I assume there are a lot of people who park on street and not guaranteed a spot in front of own home, that's going to be the big negative for most I would imagine.

Yes, this is what initially occurred to me when I read that 90% of people are expected to recharge at home. I can just imagine the trip hazard on streets of terraced houses where the cable is stretched across the pavement and maybe fed into the house through the letter box!

 

[Gromett]

Yes, this is what initially occurred to me when I read that 90% of people are expected to recharge at home. I can just imagine the trip hazard on streets of terraced houses where the cable is stretched across the pavement and maybe fed into the house through the letter box!

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-firm-hounslow-council-richmond-a7809126.html

 

[PhilG]

It is.. an iveco I think

The interesting bit about the dethleffs concept is that they have done away with gas and covered it in solar. They seem to be claiming the solar is enough for zero charging but of course that's only going to work some days. The wireless charging is interesting. Site pitches with charge loops built in so we can do away with ehu leads??

Can you see sites investing in those types of stuff... 'lets spend loads of money to save the poor snowflakes having to use a cable' .... I cant .

 

[vwalan]

Guy across the road has a Prius, and a massive woodburner.. he doesnt see the irony.

I guess as long as people are going to buy these 'save the planet' cars , its leaves more fossil fuel for me to burn, so i shouldnt moan.

LTI are building a new Hybrid black cab, has an onboard generator to charge the batteries apparently. I'm shaking my head at that .

Its interesting to know,that since the subsides for solar power have been dropped , especially in the US, that the solar market has taken a huge dive.

solar as been subsidized for years . it means they get paid loads more to produce it.
indirectly the customer us ,have to pay alot more for leccy because of that. we work in not so good for the planet jobs so any greenness is cancelled out .
remember we live in a money world .
the world is always changing . africa was under the sea many years ago.
what humans need to do is use less of most things .
instead most humans waste so much.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

solar as been subsidized for years . it means they get paid loads more to produce it.
indirectly the customer us ,have to pay alot more for leccy because of that. we work in not so good for the planet jobs so any greenness is cancelled out .

I love this fallacy more than many of the others..
The first thing is that fossil fuels get a lot more subsidies than renewables ever have...

The second is something called externalities in economics. This is costs or benefits incurred by a business that is not received/inflicted on that business.
For instance Diesel has CO2 and health issues as negative externalities. This means that burning coal inflicts CO2 on the world at no cost to the business. The health issues that cost everyone but at no cost to the companies producing Diesel. For instance if we quantified the health cost of diesel and applied this to companies producing diesel as a health tax. That would be much fairer to renewables than just giving renewables subsidy.

However this would impact diesel producers and jobs without actually reducing the costs of renewables. Due to subsidies, renewables became cost effective which meant more people started manufacturing them. This in turn gave those companies scale and reduced costs. The net result is that solar panels and wind turbines have fallen in price to such a level that electric produced by them is now cheaper than nuclear and coal. The subsidies can slowly be phased out.

The externalities of fossil fuels won't be phased out until the fuels themselves are phased out..

Back to the fossil fuel subsidies. You can google for this if you don't believe me. This is the first article I found on it when I just googled it...

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nly-g7-country-increase-fossil-fuel-subsidies

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...leak-climate-change-environment-a7690966.html

 

[PhilG]

The health issues I read about, the premature death thing was measured in minutes , not hours or days, even , on average.

I cant find the source right now , but I will, because the level of cost and pandemonium , when related to the actual figure is startling.

Similarly, Donald Trump dropped out of the Paris agreement as he wasn't prepared to spend billions of dollars for what equated to a 0.1 degree drop in temperature over a 10 year period.

 

[Gromett]

The health issues I read about, the premature death thing was measured in minutes , not hours or days, even , on average.

Premature death is not the only health issue. Child breathing issues are on the rise massively in cities with the highest level of particulate and Nox pollution.
My post on externalities didn't mention the scale of the problem, just that there is a problem. CO2 induced global warming is a fact that is only disputed by people who haven't fully understood the facts I think. This is a massive externality.

But that aside, the subsidies for fossil fuels far outweigh the relatively small amount that the renewables industry are subsidised.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

I was wondering why electric cars don't have these fitted already? Not on the roof though

As there is no 'engine' as such, why don't they put some fans behind where the traditional radiator would have been? Then all the time you're moving, you'd be generating electricity and charging the batteries.

Seems almost too simple? I guess fans/motors like this simply couldn't output enough electricity to warrant implementing something like this?

It's for the same reason that solar panels couldn't be used as a charging source.

A wind turbine capable of producing the required charging voltage and current would be bigger than the car.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Premature death is not the only health issue. Child breathing issues are on the rise massively in cities with the highest level of particulate and Nox pollution.

I am sceptical and would like more convincing evidence to back these claims. I tend to see this as correlation not causality.

Until then I file such claims under "greenwash", that suits a fashionable political bandwagon.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

I am sceptical and would like more convincing evidence to back these claims. I tend to see this as correlation not causality.

Until then I file such claims under "greenwash", that suits a fashionable political bandwagon.

I don't have time today to look up the scientific research on this, but it is out there and findable on google.

However, Here is my basic thoughts on this briefly.
Breathing totally clean air free of all pollutants you will live a full an natural life.
Breathe 100% diesel fumes with added oxygen and you won't live very long but not due to lack of oxygen.
So on a sliding scale, somewhere between 0% diesel fumes and 100% diesel fumes there is a point where you are doing damage to your body.
In a closed in city with lots of diesel vehicles in stop start mode you are more likely to reach this theoretical damage point than in a wide open area with vehicles doing a highly efficient 56mph.

Logic dictates that at least some damage is done in the city areas, and this damage will be magnified in the young..

 

[Gromett]

Ok, I just did a very quick search for you.

Several epidemiologic studies have demonstrated a consistent association between levels of particulate matter (PM) in the ambient air with increases in cardiovascular and respiratory mortality and morbidity. Diesel exhaust (DE), in addition to generating other pollutants, is a major contributor to PM pollution in most places in the world. Although the epidemiologic evidence is strong, there are as yet no established biological mechanisms to explain the toxicity of PM in humans. To determine the impact of DE on human airways, we exposed 15 healthy human volunteers to air and diluted DE under controlled conditions for 1 h with intermittent exercise. Lung functions were measured before and after each exposure. Blood sampling and bronchoscopy were performed 6 h after each exposure to obtain airway lavages and endobronchial biopsies. While standard lung function measures did not change following DE exposure, there was a significant increase in neutrophils and B lymphocytes in airway lavage, along with increases in histamine and fibronectin. The bronchial biopsies obtained 6 h after DE exposure showed a significant increase in neutrophils, mast cells, CD4 + and CD8 + T lymphocytes along with upregulation of the endothelial adhesion molecules ICAM-1 and VCAM-1, with increases in the numbers of LFA-1 + cells in the bronchial tissue. Significant increases in neutrophils and platelets were observed in peripheral blood following DE exposure. This study demonstrates that at high ambient concentrations, acute short-term DE exposure produces a well-defined and marked systemic and pulmonary inflammatory response in healthy human volunteers, which is underestimated by standard lung function measurements.

http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1164/ajrccm.159.3.9709083

 

[SpeedyDux]

@Gromett I don't dispute that long term exposure to NOx and particulates is a health hazard. What I am sceptical of is the blame game that targets diesel emissions selectively. I am sure there are many research papers that will support the promised total ban on sales of diesel engined small vehicles.

What seems to have been overlooked or at least played down are many other potential environmental contributory factors that we know can cause cardio vascular and lung disease, and even hinders learning in children, but we mustn't let that stand in the way of (say) a third runway at Heathrow, despite WHO reports [which I have read]. Why mass air travel still basically gets a free pass from the war on environmental emissions and climate change is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Gromett]

@Gromett I don't dispute that long term exposure to NOx and particulates is a health hazard. What I am sceptical of is the blame game that targets diesel emissions selectively. I am sure there are many research papers that will support the promised total ban on sales of diesel engined small vehicles.

What seems to have been overlooked or at least played down are many other potential environmental contributory factors that we know can cause cardio vascular and lung disease, and even hinders learning in children, but we mustn't let that stand in the way of (say) a third runway at Heathrow, despite WHO reports [which I have read]. Why mass air travel still basically gets a free pass from the war on environmental emissions and climate change is beyond my comprehension.

I am not saying that there aren't other sources of pollution that should be targetted. I do totally agree with you on Heathrow as well. However just because there are other causes doesn't mean that Diesel pollution shouldn't be targetted. There has been continuous measurements of localised pollution for many years now and there is a direct link between high levels of pollution and diesel vehicles...

An intermediate ban on diesel vehicles in high pollution zones in cities may be a solution.. But long term and I think 2040 is reasonable, moving away from all locally generated pollution generators is sensible.. Once we are 100% electric. Then only factories and power stations will be the only sources of air pollution and will be much easier to track.

 

[frogijock]

Well since it is going to be 22 years before this all comes into play, I certainly will not worry to much about it as I will either be to old to drive or being used as fertiliser in my daughter's garden

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PeteH]

I have posted on this subject multiple times. This is not going to be an issue. Other technologies are coming online really fast that will mitigate this problem. Cars will mainly be charged overnight which will actually help the grid by removing the troughs in production meaning that power stations don't need to wind down overnight.
Secondly with grid scale storage, local storage and home storage starting to ramp up, we will start seeing peak demand being mitigated. Also worth noting that peak demand is falling as power efficient new products are seeing mass take up. For instance LED lighting is now mass market, old school linear power supplies are being replaced with low power switch mode supplies. Main computers are seeing less use and the take up of tablets etc.. Power demand is falling. We imported 50% less electricity than previous year in the last stats I saw.

90% of car charging will take place at home overnight. If ALL electric cars were to be charged from empty at night it still wouldn't reach the level of demand on the grid that we see during peak times.

Don`t get me wrong, IF, (and the IF is big), this revolution takes place, I will be glad to see it. I am just sceptical that it will be hijacked by "profiteers". Unless or until this miracle occurs, and the Grid is capable of coping with the inevitable "surge", I dont see me queuing up to by any "electric" vehicle anytime soon. There WILL be a premium to pay, which may (or more likely not) be "subsidised" via taxation (that WILL be popular, I dont think!) It`s just like now, I pay taxes to subsidise the Solar Panel's of next doors roof!. By my reckoning I should be entitled to plug into HIS power?.

 

[Jim]

It's not even a tiny if. It's coming and about time.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Some of our neighbours have just bought an all electric car, a Nissan Leaf I think, as a second car.

I was talking to him about it the other day and he said there's no way in the world it would ever replace his 2.4 V6 Audi but it's fine for his wife to use for short running around town type trips with the kids.

They don't plan on using it for anything more than that and will never be out of range of home for charging purposes.

 

[tonyidle]

There WILL be a premium to pay, which may (or more likely not) be "subsidised" via taxation (that WILL be popular, I dont think!) It`s just like now, I pay taxes to subsidise the Solar Panel's of next doors roof!. By my reckoning I should be entitled to plug into HIS power?.

See @Gromett post above on the truth about subsidies.

 

[Gromett]

Don`t get me wrong, IF, (and the IF is big), this revolution takes place, I will be glad to see it. I am just sceptical that it will be hijacked by "profiteers". Unless or until this miracle occurs, and the Grid is capable of coping with the inevitable "surge", I dont see me queuing up to by any "electric" vehicle anytime soon. There WILL be a premium to pay, which may (or more likely not) be "subsidised" via taxation (that WILL be popular, I dont think!) It`s just like now, I pay taxes to subsidise the Solar Panel's of next doors roof!. By my reckoning I should be entitled to plug into HIS power?.

Did you know that ICE cars are many times more complex to manufacture? But are sold very close to cost price.. There are two reasons for this. The first is competition between manufacturers causes them compete on price. To do this they make vast sums on spares. Very little of a car companies profitability is from the car itself. So when you buy a ICE car you are saving money up front to spend money down the line for spares etc..

With an electric car there is no spares down the line (except for batteries). Because electric is cheaper per mile travelled you have to do a reverse calculation on Total Cost of Ownership... (TCO). An electric car currently costs a little more than an ICE car but over the life of the car you get that money back in cheaper fuel.

As for subsidies, Solar is now so cheap you can get your money back within 14 years and in the meantime you can power your car for a massive discount (around 75% on some figures I have seen)....

Why should you be entitled to plug into his power? He has invested his hard earned money into that system for his own benefit. If you work hard and save you can do the same You have no more right to his power than you have to the private investors who built the gas fired power station down the road who make vastly more profit than your neighbour does

Electric vehicles are currently subsidised to encourage uptake. For instance a Tesla will cost you £35000, but you will get £7,000 back off the government. So you too can benefit from the subsidies.. These subsidies will allow the manufacturers to sell more vehicles, which means that economies of scale kick in and make the cars cheaper eventually leading to cheap cars without a subsidy. These subsidies are a short term investment in our future... I am against subsidies in general but in specific cases such as this I fully support them providing they are a short term method to boost demand to get prices on a downward trend in the long term..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}