Motorhome evolution in a diesel-banned future

[Deleted member 29692]

I understand the inconvenience of an on board petro engine but I would still rather have the security of a way to charge "in the wild" if we ran out of battery charge, for example in a 2 hour stationary queue on the M1

That scenario shouldn't happen any more than it should with an ICE vehicle.

If your fuel gauge is telling you you're getting low you stop and refuel in plenty of time.

Why would it be any different with an electric vehicle?

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

So at 12 volts that would be 7,724 AH battery
To charge 403v 230ah battery in 30 minutes your going to need a 400v 460amp supply

460 A is going to need cables about 200mm2 or about 0.5" diameter. I guess that is practical

 

[Gromett]

Every one is on abut 200 miles wat is the avrege jurny per day my biggest jurny is about 10 Miles when I do the school run my sons lives 10 Miles and 20 mils away
The town center is 1.5 miles away
The two man towns are a Max of 25 miles away
The sea side is Max 35 miles away
How many commuted over a hr to work
Or school
Bill

For a car you are correct. The average person commutes 171 miles a week so a 200 mile range car would last a full week between charges. A 50 mile range car would cover the vast majority of the population for a local use/commuter vehicle.

A 150 mile range creates a natural 'lunch break' but in that case we would need to get the full range back in under an hour.

200 mile range that can be fully charged in 6 hours and charged to 80% in an hour would be about right...

That is my basic spec as well for my motorhome and is doable now with current technology

Another possibility is replacable standard rented battery packs that are changed and charged at stations set up for the purpose this coule be robotised as they would be heavy and large. They could then be swapped for a charged one in a couple of minutes. They will have to go some way to get a range for our 600 mile trip to brittany in one day this year though!!! (car not m/h)

Swappable batteries were tried by Tesla. The problem is no one used it, and it isn't as practical as you would think...

I understand the inconvenience of an on board petro engine but I would still rather have the security of a way to charge "in the wild" if we ran out of battery charge, for example in a 2 hour stationary queue on the M1

Erm. You won't run out of juice when stationary in an electric car. If you are not touching the go peddle you don't use any juice.. Unlike a petrol car which on tick over still uses fuel..

 

[Enword]

It's not going to effect us because of our age but younger folk who travel greater distances in one hit, in the future will have to have more time off work to carry on racing which will be extremely difficult.

Example, Knockhill circuit 520 miles, TT Assen 650 miles, Snett & Cadwell 320-350 may be poss. When we go to Clairac, France, on hols its 700 miles from Roscoff so that's not going to be one hit me thinks

 

[Gromett]

460 A is going to need cables about 200mm2 or about 0.5" diameter. I guess that is practical

460A X 400V = 184Kw charger. This is just a little bit more than the current Tesla superchargers which are about the 150Kw level...

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[Welsh girl]

Well it takes 4hours to charge my 36v bike batteries so I hope that the MH ones would be a lot faster or were not going to go far not that I'll see them in operation at my age.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

460 A is going to need cables about 200mm2 or about 0.5" diameter. I guess that is practical

400v solar panels and regulators are never ever going to be practical or safe in any vehicle.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

Erm. You won't run out of juice when stationary in an electric car. If you are not touching the go peddle you don't use any juice.. Unlike a petrol car which on tick over still uses fuel..

Ah, but I would have swivelled my chair, raised the satellite dish and would be watching Top Gear repeats on Dave, and cooking burgers on the grill. If I was really worried about a reserve supply, I suppose I could install a spare set of batteries slung under the trailer carrying my Tesla Toad. Damn, I'm going to have to work for another couple of years to pay for all of this.

 

[JJ]

I will be well dead by the time all this stuff happens so, totally selfishly, I can't get myself too worked up over it.

However I do use a shopping bag for life, and I don't have nasty chemicals in my loo, so I might still get to the Sky Blue Paradise up there...

Just saying


JJ

 

[Gromett]

I understand the inconvenience of an on board petro engine but I would still rather have the security of a way to charge "in the wild" if we ran out of battery charge, for example in a 2 hour stationary queue on the M1

I just had a thought, in winter if you get stuck in traffic you will have the heater on. For a Tesla this is a 5KW heater element.
However your vehicle will already be at temp so it will just need to maintain the temp.
here are the figures.


Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18-20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph

So with 2 people in the car, 2 seat heaters, wipers/nozzles etc etc.
you will lose about 2-3miles of range for each 1 hour you are stuck in traffic. Not too bad?

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[tonyidle]

I understand the inconvenience of an on board petro engine but I would still rather have the security of a way to charge "in the wild" if we ran out of battery charge, for example in a 2 hour stationary queue on the M1

In a stationary queue you would only be using electricity for heat & cups of tea.

 

[RogerThat]

Wait....

A Tesla has five heated seats AND a heated steering wheel

 

[The Wino]

I just had a thought, in winter if you get stuck in traffic you will have the heater on. For a Tesla this is a 5KW heater element.
However your vehicle will already be at temp so it will just need to maintain the temp.
here are the figures.


Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18-20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph

So with 2 people in the car, 2 seat heaters, wipers/nozzles etc etc.
you will lose about 2-3miles of range for each 1 hour you are stuck in traffic. Not too bad?

I would have thought people would still use gas for heating on site and probably set up for heating while travelling to get max range it would be a pain to use battery for everything.

 

[Gromett]

I would have thought people would still use gas for heating on site and probably set up for heating while travelling to get max range it would be a pain to use battery for everything.

I was on about the vehicle heating through the dash blower etc.

 

[The Dotties]

It's not going to effect us because of our age but younger folk who travel greater distances in one hit, in the future will have to have more time off work to carry on racing which will be extremely difficult.

Example, Knockhill circuit 520 miles, TT Assen 650 miles, Snett & Cadwell 320-350 may be poss. When we go to Clairac, France, on hols its 700 miles from Roscoff so that's not going to be one hit me thinks

It won't matter! There won't be any fuel for your outfit. Unless of course you're going to go down the battery route. Just realised, no sound! Oh no!!

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[Gromett]

Talking about Battery prices falling. Tesla have just announced a $3,000 price drop on their 100KWh battery pack due to improvements in the manufacturing process.

“Tesla is passing cost efficiency improvements of approximately 3% in 100 kWH pack production through to customers.”

 

[32143]

Must admit we don't have a car only the pvc, so not really noticed these electric charging points around as we walk to most places, bypassing the carparks. Did however see some in York a couple weeks back, they were in Tesco's car park.
Is this the type of thing that would be required at home? Or do you just plug into your house electrics?

How would occupiers of flats or terraced streets charge up?

I assume there are a lot of people who park on street and not guaranteed a spot in front of own home, that's going to be the big negative for most I would imagine.

Lin

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

In a stationary queue you would only be using electricity for heat & cups of tea.

And the fridge freezer and beer cool box and smart phone chargers and the USB fans and the radio

 

[SpeedyDux]

Lithium batteries can charge at massive speeds. Even basic LifePO4 batteries available today can charge at a 3C rate which means 20 minutes to full. Remember Lithium based batteries operate totally differently to Lead batteries. There is no absorption or float states. At 3C you can put 100% of the charge in, in 20 minutes if you have a powerful enough charger. Super Chargers can put HUGE amounts of energy in and these are being rolled out today. The current generation of Tesla super chargers for instance are 120KW chargers and can put an 80% charge into a 400 mile car in just over 30 minutes.

Yes, the inherent challenge is that it is indeed a HUGE amount of energy. 120KW is a massive transfer rate of energy into a comparatively compact space in which the battery lives. Even with the benefit of only O-level physics and chemistry (half forgotten now) I suspect that there is a great deal of heat given off during charging, unless the chemical reaction within the batteries is 100% energy efficient and massively endothermic. Where does this heat discharge go? How is the risk of runaway combustion mitigated?

I don't know how 120KW of electricity from the super charger compares with the transfer of energy from a diesel pump, but diesel is almost idiot-proof as a store of energy.

 

[Gromett]

Yes, the inherent challenge is that it is indeed a HUGE amount of energy. 120KW is a massive transfer rate of energy into a comparatively compact space in which the battery lives. Even with the benefit of only O-level physics and chemistry (half forgotten now) I suspect that there is a great deal of heat given off during charging, unless the chemical reaction within the batteries is 100% energy efficient and massively endothermic. Where does this heat discharge go? How is the risk of runaway combustion mitigated?

I don't know how 120KW of electricity from the super charger compares with the transfer of energy from a diesel pump, but diesel is almost idiot-proof as a store of energy.

Heat isn't too much of an issue when charging Li cells. The transfer is close to 100% efficient in comparison to a lead acid which is only 85%.. For every 100 Joules you put into a Li Battery you get very close to 100 Joules out. Whereas with a Lead battery you will only get 85 Back out. That 15% is what turns into heat in a Lead battery during charging.

Charging an Li battery is Endothermic I believe whereas discharge is exothermic. As such a faster charge is better than a faster discharge from a temperature point of view.

This video explains the operation of Li batteries much better than I ever could. Worth a watch if you are interested.

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[Louis]

The one major problem with electric cars they've yet to solve is how to make them sound like a big V8

Lolly pop sticks


Just seen earlier reply

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

Lolly pop sticks
Bill

Or the modern equivalent of lolly pop sticks:
SoundRacer : V8 Amazon product ASIN B004CK587E

 

[pappajohn]

460 A is going to need cables about 200mm2 or about 0.5" diameter. I guess that is practical

Already have some in my garage....and some 25 x 12mm lead 'straps' to link batteries.
They came off a large emergency lighting battery bank.

 

[Gromett]

Just did a quick search on Amazon.
500 Amp cable 70mm


Obviously for welding voltages but uprating the insulation is all that would be required.

I did find some 1,000Amp cable in the U.S. but couldn't find the UK equivalent. So I don't believe cables are any issue.

 

[pappajohn]

It won't matter! There won't be any fuel for your outfit. Unless of course you're going to go down the battery route. Just realised, no sound! Oh no!!

Wadya mean 'no sound'
Have you never watched Formula E car racing ?
Damned things are almost as noisy as Formula 1 cars.

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[Deleted member 29692]

I did find some 1,000Amp cable in the U.S. but couldn't find the UK equivalent. So I don't believe cables are any issue.

In the UK that sort of current tends to be busbar not cable.

For distribution purposes perhaps cable but not consumer side.

 

[Gromett]

In the UK that sort of current tends to be busbar not cable.

For distribution purposes perhaps cable but not consumer side.

It was welding cable... As I said not the right voltage spec on the insulation.

I was just mentioning it as it proves that cable is available for these super chargers + much more.

 

[Wildbill]

Hi @Wildbill , we're discussing electric motorhomes in this thread. The school run is already taken care of by the Prius ( or Tesla for the better-off!)

No site serlock we use the motor home for everything
So relivent to this thread I think
Every one is entitled to put what ever point that want across on a forum
It is a open forum I think unless things have changed since I last blinked
Bill

 

[MitchandJenny]

Very clever tech info in the video "Grommet" but I have to admit I only watched the first 10 mins (which I did grasp) then thought, if I watch any more, I will lose what I just learnt ! ! !
I admire the technology. BUT, I remember watching a bit of Top Gear where Captain slow turned up on a motorbike powered by a carbon fuel cell ! ! And as Carbon is the most common element in the universe,
why are we not putting a bit more effort into developing the fuel cell ??
James May then lifted the fuel cell out of the motorbike and said that it would soon be able to power 200 houses ! !
Toyota have just made the first production car using a fuel cell.. Nothing comes out of the exhaust but a bit of clean moisture.
It is just a matter of developing a way of mass producing the carbon and storing it under pressure tanks for use in the vehicles.
Stripping the Hydrogen molecules from the Oxygen is apparently the "tricky" bit ! ! !
But we ARE surrounded by water ! ! !
NO prescious metals involved, which I think is great.
None of these developments are likely to affect things greatly in my lifetime, but are nontheless
Fascinating.
Mitch.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

No site serlock we use the motor home for everything
So relivent to this thread I think
Every one is entitled to put what ever point that want across on a forum
It is a open forum I think unless things have changed since I last blinked
Bill

Sincere apologies @Wildbill, if I've caused offence. I had not considered Funsters using the Moho for the school run and of course your comment is relevant. There is a school on my daily commute where many of the cars are nearly as big as some Motorhomes, so I should not have been surprised

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