Lithium? The big con?

[Abacist]

I suppose it depends on what you call heavy use.
A typical 20 minute cooking time with my air fryer uses about 20 amps.

I am ruthless and only turn the inverter on/off as required.

 

[jumar]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how I went from 27 % to this?

Did the 8k spent include a regeneration system like on my Tesla...
Seems i can stay another day and a half




View attachment 995396

Other Funsters passed by your van and donated their surplus power...which is possible with Lithium, if they know if a fellow user is in need...
We often donate our surplus amperage which serves one of our local villages...all part of the Lithium community here in Spain...

 

[Molly A]

I should have come to this thread earlier, it would have saved me from quoting so many responses (and I would have realised earlier that it’s a little tongue in cheek ).


Absolutely this.

Indeed.

Your error was underestimating the significance of the benefit that the efoy has given you historically.

But your current system is fundamentally different from what you had previously, and I don’t mean that it has LiFePO4, because you no longer have a 24hr recharge capability. Once you lose that you're on a loser if you don’t change your use case.

Absolutely better because you would use less Efoy fuel recharging your LiFePO4 batteries.

This, fundamentally, is the reason that haganap is disappointed while laying the blame at the LiFePO4 batteries.

All hail the Efoy. The big question is why did you not specify the Efoy?

No, the Efoy would have been no worse but it would have been significantly better with lower fuel costs.

It is a game changer. Just compare it with your old system with the Efoy removed (if we are to make like for like comparisons).

It has, but you are unwilling to recognise that, in the absence of an Efoy, it has allowed you to stay off-grid for longer. Your previous system, without an Efoy, would not have given you an endurance of 4 days.

It (LiFePO4) is a game changer for a variety of reasons already detailed by others.

Your previous ‘system’ included a variety of components including a 24 hr recharge capability. Your current system includes a variety of components without a 24 hr recharge capability.
You have chosen to direct your ire to one of the constituent parts of your current system. What I don’t understand is why you chose to blame the lack of 24 hr recharge capability on the LiFePO4 and not on any of the other components (e.g. the MRBF safety device, the different charge profile in your B2B) in your current system.

If you are going to compare the relative effectiveness of two systems it is important to recognise the fundamental differences between the two systems. In your case, this is not that the two systems use different battery technologies (they both store energy), neither is it that they might use different mechanisms (split charge/B2B) to deliver alternator current to the batteries, nor is it that they had different solar capacities. The fundamental difference between the two systems is that one had a diverse (engine and solar independent) 24 hr charging capability and, it transpires, that for your use case/expectation this is critical

Exactly

 

[stevenansuzanne]

Or am I expecting to much,

Or am I in the dark? No literally "I'm in the dark"

So I must be doing something wrong.....maybe I'm reading my stats wrong.

Bear in mind, I've been motorhoming for 20 plus years. My set up prior to this van was simply for 10 years, two x 120 amp batteries and an effoy, nothing more nothing less.

My set up on my new van that we've had since March is 3 x 110 victron lithium batteries,3 kw victron inverter charger, 200w of solar no B2B smart alternator. Never ever needed to think about power before, most places we stay a couple of nights, nikki uses hair dryer and we cook with an air fryer without issue.

We came away Friday, stopped the night in Stratford upon Avon, no hook up, arrived fully charged, lived our best lives and had an air fryer meal. I noticed we had hammered the batteries a bit, I noticed I was only putting in about 20-30 amps and the journey from Stratford to Portsmouth wouldn't be enough time arrive fully charged. I turned off the fridge, managed to get the charging rate up to 40 amps and arrived at Portsmouth with 98 percent battery.

We have stayed 3 nights with tonight being our 3rd and already the batteries are saying low charge. This set up comes in at over 8k factory fitted so I'm unsure why I'm in the dark?

My draw is about 3 to 4 amps even with everything seemingly switched off.
Nikki washed and dried her hair yesterday, we watched a bit of avtex tv.

How come I have had the worst performance ever when camping in the depth of winter?
Other than increasing the capacity to more than I have ever ever had, am i sat in the dark?

Seems to me I should have simply ordered two led acid batteries with an efoy?

Complete load of dreamers out there selling these off grid solutions to put you in a place that could have been achieved cheaper in the first place. Might be alright if you are slumming it in Spain l, but clearly we don't, but I would have expected to not have to worry for 4 nights away in winter in the UK...

Lithium "ain't all that" prove me wrong or tell me there's something wrong.
Or am View attachment 994946View attachment 994947i misreading something?

Were have 2x 300 ah fogstar batteries. 2 kW inverter .renogy b2b .we run the fridge on gas .we have a 300 Watts solar on the roof with a victron charge controller .a diesel night heater .12v tv .700 watt kettle .Tower single drawer air fryer
The batteries arr also inside under front bench to protect from the cold as were up in Scotland. All works fine for us very rarely go to sites .you may have power drain somewhere

 

[Raul]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how I went from 27 % to this?

Did the 8k spent include a regeneration system like on my Tesla...
Seems i can stay another day and a half




View attachment 995396

Number of things could be wrong there:
-Shunt settings are way off
-Shunt +ve feed fuse loose intermittent connection and caused re sync
-loads wired incorrectly that bypass the shunt
What is clear, the SOC percentage is not correct, at 12.6v Lifepo4 is about 10-20% max charged, not 81%. At 81% the voltage would be 13.2v or there abouts.

Thy posting a photo of your shunt setting first, and we'll have a idea whats what.

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[bigtwin]

Number of things could be wrong there:
-Shunt settings are way off
-Shunt +ve feed fuse loose intermittent connection and caused re sync
-loads wired incorrectly that bypass the shunt
What is clear, the SOC percentage is not correct, at 12.6v Lifepo4 is about 10-20% max charged, not 81%. At 81% the voltage would be 13.2v or there abouts.

Thy posting a photo of your shunt setting first, and we'll have a idea whats what.

You’re in danger of muddying the waters here by seeking facts.

Ian

 

[Raul]

You’re in danger of muddying the waters here by seeking facts.

Ian

Its clear as mud so far; But
He asked for it

 

[headlight]

Sorry it’s the cumulative effect of adding another appliance on top of the TV, lights, pump, coffee maker etc when static without a hookup.

I only use the air fryer maybe once a week.
I've been away for 9 days now and have used it once.
No coffee maker, microwave, hair dryer etc so 20 amps to run the air fryer once a week is neither here or there on my usage.

 

[headlight]

I am ruthless and only turn the inverter on/off as required.

Likewise I only use my inverter when needed.
When not being used my inverter only draws 0.1 amps or 2.4 amps per 24 hours.
Again pretty insignificant as far as I am concerned.

 

[Roger S]

I think you've just volunteered.....

Darn, own goal

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[Minxy]

Because we put a mat inbetween the glass and the rings to protect it and I dont want to risk melting it on the grills.

Why use the mat? It's not needed as the glass is tempered just like oven doors.

But overall the electric kettle is just easier.

How long does it take to boil for 2 mugs (the drink containers not you! )

Do you know anyone who still uses a gas kettle at home?

I have occasionally and to be honest if it had an auto off function probably still would as I think water boiled in a gas kettle makes a better cuppa.

 

[Minxy]

On the other hand, we have been known to experience anxiety about cassette capacity

You need pee bottles!

 

[mikash]

It was 8k on the order sheet 4 years ago.
It's over 10 now, good job those prices went down...

It is a luxury though...

Lithium truly is great especially in my Tesla and Ebikes.

Sounds like someone jumped at the opportunity to convert the battery price decrease into a markup increase, and then some

 

[funflair]

1000ah! I’ve lived in a fully off grid house for 5 years (4 beds / 4 baths etc) so not small. Had all the usual 230v paraphernalia - dishwasher, washer/dryer, 2 TVs, fridge and 2 freezers, over 100 LED light fittings inside and out, plus of course hairdryer and a whole lot of other hand held appliances, phone chargers, iPad, laptop. In essence just as for a normal ‘on grid’ house. Our set up - 600ah lithium, 8kw inverter and 5500w of solar. We were good for average of 15kw per day use. An auto generator kicked in for 1 - 2 hours daily charging from start of November to end of Feb. All other times solar was more than adequate. The key though was configuring it all up as a 48v system (as opposed to 12).
I am surprised that no one on here talks much about the merits of a 24v set-up in a motorhome which is were you can really start to push the ‘off grid’ envelope.

Not sure we would get 5500w of solar on the roof of the van but it would be good, agree that 1000ah or more precisely 12Kwh would be overkill but it would cover winter periods where you rely on generator. Again agree that 24 or even 48 volts would have big advantages but it doesn’t seem to have been adopted by any manufacturers and I am not about to start ripping out our 12v system.

 

[bellabee]

You need pee bottles!

Yes. That and cutting back on the high fibre diet!

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[Minxy]

haganap hubby just suggested I get you to check that your gas is actually turned on otherwise the fridge will be gobbling your battery power.

 

[funflair]

I was not aware of EFOY fuel cells - I would be glad to know more about them.

Are these a directly comparable option to a generator?

Would you use it to charge an onboard lithium based system - or as a separate power source - or both?

What are the pros and cons?

Think of it as a trickle charger at around 6 amps, can be set to come on at a given voltage but not sure how that works with lithium that doesn’t drop much.

 

[Molly A]

Well after 11 pages of fascinating discussion (and surprisingly my tongue is not lodged in my cheek) my takeouts are that lithium is definitely the way to go when we change our batteries, as long as your power consumption does not compare to that of Blackpool illuminations. My marine electronics engineer partner, already a firm convert to lithium will be speccing out the van and our upgrading our boat systems as our existing batteries reach end of life.
But what it has highlighted to me is my need to up my game in being high maintenance. I am clearly woefully underperforming in that respect, with no hairdryer, no air fryer , washing machine, or coffee machine and a television which never gets used.
But I do have a spare toilet cassette and two holding tanks on our boat so I feel that I've got my priorities well in sorted!

 

[Buddy1012]

Not sure we would get 5500w of solar on the roof of the van but it would be good, agree that 1000ah or more precisely 12Kwh would be overkill but it would cover winter periods where you rely on generator. Again agree that 24 or even 48 volts would have big advantages but it doesn’t seem to have been adopted by any manufacturers and I am not about to start ripping out our 12v system.

Agree - no mainstream manufacturers apart from those offering ‘liner class’ models. However plenty of converters doing it now as seen at the autumn show. Certainly something that DIY converters should consider at the outset if they are aiming at self sufficiency.

 

[Jon Stewart]

I suppose it depends on what you call heavy use.
A typical 20 minute cooking time with my air fryer uses about 20 amps.

20 amps or 20 amp hours?

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[Jabstatt]

As I said, let’s sort amps from amp hours!!!

It can’t be clear until that is done!

Drives me nuts and makes the figures meaningless.

Tony

 

[AdrianChen]

24v was nice to have on the last boat - didn't add cost, and all the stuff like pumps etc were available in 24v so easy to do, but had to have a second alternator because the engines were only available in 12v strangely enough.

The benefit seemed mainly for the builder with smaller wring/voltage drop, since the kit just worked the same as the previous 12v boat, Can't say it would last longer but who knows. The 48v one I watched being built was more of an issue - yes wiring to the high current users was nice, small and manageable, but much of the boat was run from droppers to 24v/12v to keep the components easy to source, and relatively inexpensive.

If the base van is available in 24v, and CBE/Schaudt etc provide a 24v distribution system, so it isn't bespoke (costly) then I'd be happy to have it, if only to save copper, especially for big inverters (albeit with short wire runs), and the potential for more powerful alternators.

48v I don't have experience of, but I do think it needs more care, 50v DC is I'm told more of an risk to shocking, and 48v chargers will be up there, plus I think stuff like pumps, fridges etc are less common - Saw one 48v boat being built, and there were several droppers used where the kit was far to expensive in 48v, or just not available - I'm 10 years out of date though. It did have an 8kw alternator, which would be handy on the van!

 

[suavecarve]

It would be interesting for anyone with a lithium set up to swap their batteries back to the same amp lead batteries to see how they get on with their adjusted lithium life stile.

I did something like this on a small scale last year.

Original van was 200 ah of lith with 250 watts of solar designed to charge 2 ebikes daily and sufficient leccy for normal use

Bought new van and only enough time to put in 280 ah lithium with no solar and only 15ah off the alternator and not travelling far.

After we found out how much juice the new air fryer used we put that away, then we began charging our e bikes in other free places (ladestations and Bosch official charging units) then the battery anxiety came into play and we started to get concerned at 100 ah available which is ridiculous as in the van prior we only had 220 ah of gel. In 35 days in provence we only popped in for electric 3 times to recharge taking note that we could CCP it up for 6 hours at 30 ah.

We ve got 350 watts of solar now so all is well in the world

 

[headlight]

20 amps or 20 amp hours?

Amps.
If it were 20AH for 20 minutes it would be 20 ÷ 3 = 6.7AH not 20 amps.
I think that's correct isn't it ?

 

[Jabstatt]

Amps.
If it were 20AH for 20 minutes it would be 20 ÷ 3 = 6.7AH not 20 amps.
I think that's correct isn't it ?

It’s twenty amps. Period.

For twenty minutes, yes its 6.7 amp hours.

Tony

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[Tony50]

At £40 a night you could stay 200 nights on a campsite with hookup.= £8000

 

[Raul]

As I said, let’s sort amps from amp hours!!!

It can’t be clear until that is done!

Drives me nuts and makes the figures meaningless.

Tony

You are on a lost battle in here for that.
In fact I ditch all that in favour of wh. Amps is flow and Ah is just capacity of any battery that changes always with rate. Fixed and meaningfull? Wh.

 

[Jon Stewart]

Amps.
If it were 20AH for 20 minutes it would be 20 ÷ 3 = 6.7AH not 20 amps.
I think that's correct isn't it ?

Not quite!

If it was 20A for 20 minutes it would be 6.7Ah.

Calculation correct, but units, not quite!

 

[Tude]

Or am I expecting to much,

Or am I in the dark? No literally "I'm in the dark"

So I must be doing something wrong.....maybe I'm reading my stats wrong.

Bear in mind, I've been motorhoming for 20 plus years. My set up prior to this van was simply for 10 years, two x 120 amp batteries and an effoy, nothing more nothing less.

My set up on my new van that we've had since March is 3 x 110 victron lithium batteries,3 kw victron inverter charger, 200w of solar no B2B smart alternator. Never ever needed to think about power before, most places we stay a couple of nights, nikki uses hair dryer and we cook with an air fryer without issue.

We came away Friday, stopped the night in Stratford upon Avon, no hook up, arrived fully charged, lived our best lives and had an air fryer meal. I noticed we had hammered the batteries a bit, I noticed I was only putting in about 20-30 amps and the journey from Stratford to Portsmouth wouldn't be enough time arrive fully charged. I turned off the fridge, managed to get the charging rate up to 40 amps and arrived at Portsmouth with 98 percent battery.

We have stayed 3 nights with tonight being our 3rd and already the batteries are saying low charge. This set up comes in at over 8k factory fitted so I'm unsure why I'm in the dark?

My draw is about 3 to 4 amps even with everything seemingly switched off.
Nikki washed and dried her hair yesterday, we watched a bit of avtex tv.

How come I have had the worst performance ever when camping in the depth of winter?
Other than increasing the capacity to more than I have ever ever had, am i sat in the dark?

Seems to me I should have simply ordered two led acid batteries with an efoy?

Complete load of dreamers out there selling these off grid solutions to put you in a place that could have been achieved cheaper in the first place. Might be alright if you are slumming it in Spain l, but clearly we don't, but I would have expected to not have to worry for 4 nights away in winter in the UK...

Lithium "ain't all that" prove me wrong or tell me there's something wrong.
Or am View attachment 994946View attachment 994947i misreading something?

Last discharge 238amps that’s your problem what the hell are you using? Sounds to me that your fridge is running from your inverter?? I have a tall fridge freezer compressor type it uses about 38 amps in a 24hr period

 

[headlight]

Not quite!

If it was 20A for 20 minutes it would be 6.7Ah.

Calculation correct, but units, not quite!

Units were correct when I typed it, autocorrect changed 20amps to 20AH and I didn't notice until you just corrected me.

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