Lithium? The big con?

[dunnah01]

12v lithium will be obsolete long before the vans they are installed i reach end of life so I won't be changing from lead acid. Madman Musk will tell little Donald to change the laws to make everything 110v to suit the good old USofA

 

[fred_jb]

I’m doing my best but, can you explain how the following aligns with the symptoms?

Ian

Well, previous posts were discussing how the screenshot the OP posted showed a SOC, (state of charge) of 81%, mysteriously up from the previous night when it registered something like 21%. At the same time the recorded voltage of the battery was indicative of a much lower SOC, perhaps closer to 21%.

I was suggesting that one possibility for this contradictory state of affairs could be that the shunt, the device measuring the current ins and outs of the battery from which it estimates the SOC, had been erroneously synchronised with the battery.

When a shunt is synchronised with a battery, either manually or automatically, it is normally at a point when the battery is at a known SOC, normally 100%, and by telling the shunt to synchronise it also gets its own record of SOC set to 100%, thereby ensuring that the two things are correctly aligned.

However, if for example the shunt was synchronised to record a 100% SOC at a point when the battery was actually only at say 50%, then the shunt would from that point on record a reading that was 50% higher than the reality. Something like this could possibly happen through a malfunction or an erroneous manual synchronisation.

However this is maybe not so likely and as others have suggested, the system may not be wired correctly, resulting in some of the current leaving the battery bypassing the shunt. Because the shunt assumes that all current goes through it, this missing current would introduce an error which would grow over time, eventually resulting in a big mismatch between the SOC calculated by the shunt and the actual SOC of the battery.

 

[mikash]

However this is maybe not so likely and as others have suggested, the system may not be wired correctly, resulting in some of the current leaving the battery bypassing the shunt. Because the shunt assumes that all current goes through it, this missing current would introduce an error which would grow over time, eventually resulting in a big mismatch between the SOC calculated by the shunt and the actual SOC of the battery.

I think given the three pic timeline posted by OP it's more likely that something's wrong with the settings and the shunt reset to 100% somewhere between charging the battery with alternator and checking it again in the morning.
Maybe mistook the 1 hour alternator charging for full charge. I think this might happen if the shunt is misconfigured or if you have enough loads while charging that the charging amps - load is below the configured tail current for some time because shunt might see high voltage but low current and deduct the battery's full.
Victron shunt also has a setting for what happens to SoC if the shunt is powered off and on again. One of the options is to set SoC to 100% on powerup. So if the OP left out and maybe turned a mains breaker to save power -> after turning power back on, SoC would show 100% even if battery voltage and real SoC was low.
These all depend on how everything is wired and configured of course, just guessing.

 

[wfdTamar]

I read right up to the point on the previous page where the OP just dismissed all with something like 'there are a lot of people taking this too seriously'. Bringing up a problem, then ignoring all efforts from a lot of helpful people to sort it out is not reasonable. Also using the 'I've been doing this for 20 years' line, but showing quite a lot of ignorance of the basic principles of balancing input & output! A bit of 'this kit is new to me, so I need a bit of help understanding how to use it' would not be amiss. There's no disgrace in learning something new.

There's obviously something wrong with the setup and/or calibration of the battery monitor and/or user error. I suspect the Victron battery monitor is not set right or calibrated to 100% capacity, so with the minimal charging the battery hasn't actually been full since the OP got the MH. Therefore the OP is working with an ever decreasing capacity on trips.

The 8k cost was because of the ridiculously overpriced Victron batteries (and a possibility they have been damaged by abuse now) and massive manufacturer/dealer markup. It seems an odd match with 330 Ah lithium, but only 200 watts solar and (as far as we know) no B2B. The original buyer of the MH was well and truly ripped off.

We still don't know what kind of charging from the alternator it has as 'The vehicle is a culmination of N&B and Victron working together' does not explain it.

The other thing is some commenters judging the way people choose to use their power or their motorhome and how it's kitted out. Ok some just want a 'minimal' get away from it all and are fine with an 80Ah battery, right through to those that live full time in their MH and might want multiple 100's of Ah, so judging based on your desired camping style doesn't work. You realise we're all doing our trips in absolute luxury compared to those camping in tents, so judging between those with 80 and those with 600Ah is a bit ridiculous?

 

[Gromett]

I replied to this in post 305.
The scenario to drop a cell its not the case, bms will flag up and notify the victron comms. These are victron lfp batteries. Even if its not fully integrated comms, a cell out is one in a million, and these will not be the symptoms. It's a clear batt monitor issue, or, a bypassed shunt.

I didn't mean the cell was totally out. But I don't know enough about the victron battery internals so I accept your explanation without hesitation.

In my lead acid battery that battery was reading almost 1 volt lower across the entire battery and I could feel a very warm spot next to one cell during charging and it remained warm for quite some time after charging had finished.
The capacity of the entire bank appeared to be compromised. I measured a couple of amps of current going along the interconnect wire between the batteries even when the negative at the shunt was disconnected.
As soon as I disconnected the battery that was getting warm the current dropped to zero. The battery bank then stabilised at the new capacity which was higher than it was with the dodgy one connected.

This was a 1,000Ah AGM bank made up of 4 x 250Ah victron batteries. This was back in 2006 and I had spent a shed load of money to get the best possible set up. The battery was swapped under warranty without any hassle.

I was thinking along a similar line to this when I made my suggestion.

My thoughts were if a cell is compromised (but not totally dead) then as that cell reached the cutoff voltage the BMS in that particular battery would stop that battery charging whilst the others continued to charge. The BMS would attempt to balance the cells in the damaged battery. This battery would then be at a lower overall voltage than the other two and continue to suck power from the other two even after the charger switched off? Just a theory based on limited knowledge of the victron batteries.
I agree it is the least likely possibility which is why I put it last.

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[Gromett]

There are various reasons for this. Maybe one of the charging paths was installed so it bypassed the shunt resistor, so it doesn't register with the shunt software. Maybe a small continuous drain, below the amps measurement threshold of the shunt, has drained the battery without the shunt accounting for the drain.

That is another possibility. If someone installed something new after the fact and didn't know about the shunt it is possible they connected it directly to the battery as you would in a non shunt environment.

The SOC reading is usually reliable, but in this case of the two conflicting readings I would tend to believe the voltage, which is indicating a very much lower SOC than 81%.

I agree, the voltage above and below the knee are absolutely trustworthy. On the flat of the charge/discharge curve it would be harder to be 100% certain. But the reported SOC being so high and the voltage being so low (on opposite knees) is a pretty clear sign that something is seriously wrong with the set up.

 

[Minxy]

invest a minimal amount of intellectual effort into understanding stuff that it is to their advantage to understand.

So long as it doesn't send you to sleep as it did me!

 

[JJ]

When Bricks and Mortar dwellers try to live the same lifestyle in their motorhomes they create themselves lots of problems.

These problems are increased by the suppliers of totally unnecessary equipment and the world ruining desire of folk to own the latest bit of kit.

Airfryers, coffee machines, hairdryers, curling tongs, electric kettles, Foreman grills... the list goes on and on and on.

Moterhomers who move around in their vans regularly don't seem have much trouble keeping the lights working.

Just saying...


JJ

 

[MisterB]

When Bricks and Mortar dwellers try to live the same lifestyle in their motorhomes they create themselves lots of problems.

These problems are increased by the suppliers of totally unnecessary equipment and the world ruining desire of folk to own the latest bit of kit.

Airfryers, coffee machines, hairdryers, curling tongs, electric kettles, Foreman grills... the list goes on and on and on.

Moterhomers who move around in their vans regularly don't seem have much trouble keeping the lights working.

Just saying...


JJ

Please add table top pizza ovens to your list ....

As a brick and mortar dweller I want the benefits of modern day electrical appliances.....

I'm also considering buying one of those demonstration conservatories on a trailer that I can tow behind my motorhome and really enjoy 20th century living ....

 

[enark]

Please add table top pizza ovens to your list ....

As a brick and mortar dweller I want the benefits of modern day electrical appliances.....

I'm also considering buying one of those demonstration conservatives on a trailer that I can tow behind my motorhome and really enjoy 20th century living ....

Maybe Boris Johnson?

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[LesW]

Maybe Boris Johnson?

Can he cook?

 

[enark]

Can he cook?

Not sure what amps he uses!!!!

But he would be a good “demonstration conservative”

 

[fred_jb]

So long as it doesn't send you to sleep as it did me!

Oh well, sleep well then, a prime candidate for exploitation by so-called experts!

 

[Jabstatt]

It’s easier to go to sleep in the dark, when the electricity has run out!

Tony

 

[fred_jb]

It’s easier to go to sleep in the dark, when the electricity has run out!

Tony

Yes, people will definitely be "in the dark" if they don't educate themselves about technologies they rely on.

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[OldAgeTravellers]

The thing is, this is not rocket science and you don't need to be a genius techie to understand it. Anyone of average intelligence, and I'm sure you lot are at least that, can take this onboard.

Just needs people to stop throwing their hands up in horror, saying I'm not technical, and to instead invest a minimal amount of intellectual effort into understanding stuff that it is to their advantage to understand.

With the greatest respect I think you are being unnecessarily pedantic. Those that know can easily work it out. If somebody says I am using 20A they are using 20 amps if they say that their shunt says they used 200 amps then they mean Ah. The context usually explains it.
I think criticising people for getting these things wrong is just rude especially when you are questioning their intelligence as above, just like correcting somebodies spelling which is of course against the rules on here.
Yes, bad spelling winds some people up as incorrect use of units obviously winds you up. But calling people out for it just causes unnecessary conflict.
Happy New Year.

 

[LostInSpace]

Bringing up a problem, then ignoring all efforts from a lot of helpful people to sort it out is not reasonable.

It would be much better if he did just ignore the replies.

 

[fred_jb]

I think criticising people for getting these things wrong is just rude especially when you are questioning their intelligence as above, just like correcting somebodies spelling which is of course against the rules on here.

Well I don't mind being criticised for something I have actually done or said, but accusing me of questioning forum members intelligence is rude when I did no such thing. In fact I was at pains to ensure I did not imply that, and actually regarded them as being of above average intelligence, and said the following to make that clear;

"Anyone of average intelligence, and I'm sure you lot are at least that, can take this onboard."

Maybe read more carefully in future?

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

Well I don't mind being criticised for something I have actually done or said, but accusing me of questioning forum members intelligence is rude when I did no such thing. In fact I was at pains to ensure I did not imply that and said the following to make that clear;

"Anyone of average intelligence, and I'm sure you lot are at least that, can take this onboard."

Maybe read more carefully in future?

I am not going to get into an argument, but your comment above actually infers that if somebody can’t understand it then they must be below average intelligence. Totally unnecessary. Many intelligent people cannot understand simple technical concepts.

 

[fred_jb]

Maybe what I wrote wasn't read in the way I intended, but even the worst interpretation would not be questioning people's intelligence, more a question of technophobia in most cases I think.

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[fred_jb]

It is actually an interesting topic how in many cases even very intelligent people have a blind spot for anything technical. This is something that is explored in the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which is an interesting if challenging read!

 

[bellabee]

Maybe Boris Johnson?

No. You'd need a massive payload!

 

[carolyn]

It is actually an interesting topic how in many cases even very intelligent people have a blind spot for anything technical. This is something that is explored in the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which is an interesting if challenging read!

I will have to read it, I remember my daughter who was a teenager at the time saying to me “Mum , I know you’re really intelligent but I think you have a bit of your brain missing where computers are concerned”!

She’s a bit more tactful now I think, she’s in the FCDO.

 

[fred_jb]

I will have to read it, I remember my daughter who was a teenager at the time saying to me “Mum , I know you’re really intelligent but I think you have a bit of your brain missing where computers are concerned”!

She’s a bit more tactful now I think, she’s in the FCDO.

It is an interesting book, as is the author's life story. And just to reiterate, I really don't think people who shy away from technical stuff are unintelligent, so apologies to anyone who had that impression.

 

[haganap]

I read right up to the point on the previous page where the OP just dismissed all with something like 'there are a lot of people taking this too seriously'. Bringing up a problem, then ignoring all efforts from a lot of helpful people to sort it out is not reasonable. Also using the 'I've been doing this for 20 years' line, but showing quite a lot of ignorance of the basic principles of balancing input & output! A bit of 'this kit is new to me, so I need a bit of help understanding how to use it' would not be amiss. There's no disgrace in learning something new.

There's obviously something wrong with the setup and/or calibration of the battery monitor and/or user error. I suspect the Victron battery monitor is not set right or calibrated to 100% capacity, so with the minimal charging the battery hasn't actually been full since the OP got the MH. Therefore the OP is working with an ever decreasing capacity on trips.

The 8k cost was because of the ridiculously overpriced Victron batteries (and a possibility they have been damaged by abuse now) and massive manufacturer/dealer markup. It seems an odd match with 330 Ah lithium, but only 200 watts solar and (as far as we know) no B2B. The original buyer of the MH was well and truly ripped off.

We still don't know what kind of charging from the alternator it has as 'The vehicle is a culmination of N&B and Victron working together' does not explain it.

The other thing is some commenters judging the way people choose to use their power or their motorhome and how it's kitted out. Ok some just want a 'minimal' get away from it all and are fine with an 80Ah battery, right through to those that live full time in their MH and might want multiple 100's of Ah, so judging based on your desired camping style doesn't work. You realise we're all doing our trips in absolute luxury compared to those camping in tents, so judging between those with 80 and those with 600Ah is a bit ridiculous?

Firstly, out of all the responses that I have seen and read, I find this the most "well patronising" I suppose.

You don't know me, you don't know what I am trying to achieve, you clearly have no idea of trying to live between the realms of having fun in my MH and JJ explanation a few posts back.

But just to clarify a few things in your post.

There is nothing wrong with my system other than it can not allow me to live a life of being at home whilst away.... I am well aware of balancing those principles you mention. I am also aware that at this time in history, there is not a world of power use in a MH that can be replicated by good old fashion "EHU" .... Hence my "jesty" question of is Lithium the new con? I still have to do exactly what I did before Lithium with all the stuff I have had over that 20 years, check the power i'm using, move on, get a genny out, buy an efoy, therefore, nothing has changed, I might be able to do it longer, I might be able to it lighter, but check it I still do.

I am also fully aware that after 20 years of living over 3 months per year in a MH what the restrictions are to doing so and hence the amount of jest involved in my post and the element of people taking things way to seriously...

I've learnt rather a lot from my post about lithium products and peoples balanced responses which I hel;p will help others, especially mikash explanation above, whom has given an explanation backed up by those at Victron in a phone call this morning,.. There is nothing wrong with my system, only that I use to much power.

I will of course bow out now as clearly some don't understand either the question, or my stance on it. I really don't care how many amps I'm using what percentage of this or that is,.... I only want to be able to dry my wifes hair, cook in my air fryer and charge and run all her sex toys.

Cheers

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[Langtoftlad]

What a kerfuffle

 

[Raul]

Firstly, out of all the responses that I have seen and read, I find this the most "well patronising" I suppose.

You don't know me, you don't know what I am trying to achieve, you clearly have no idea of trying to live between the realms of having fun in my MH and JJ explanation a few posts back.

But just to clarify a few things in your post.

There is nothing wrong with my system other than it can not allow me to live a life of being at home whilst away.... I am well aware of balancing those principles you mention. I am also aware that at this time in history, there is not a world of power use in a MH that can be replicated by good old fashion "EHU" .... Hence my "jesty" question of is Lithium the new con? I still have to do exactly what I did before Lithium with all the stuff I have had over that 20 years, check the power i'm using, move on, get a genny out, buy an efoy, therefore, nothing has changed, I might be able to do it longer, I might be able to it lighter, but check it I still do.

I am also fully aware that after 20 years of living over 3 months per year in a MH what the restrictions are to doing so and hence the amount of jest involved in my post and the element of people taking things way to seriously...

I've learnt rather a lot from my post about lithium products and peoples balanced responses which I hel;p will help others, especially mikash explanation above, whom has given an explanation backed up by those at Victron in a phone call this morning,.. There is nothing wrong with my system, only that I use to much power.

I will of course bow out now as clearly some don't understand either the question, or my stance on it. I really don't care how many amps I'm using what percentage of this or that is,.... I only want to be able to dry my wifes hair, cook in my air fryer and charge and run all her sex toys.

Cheers

I personally, probably miss-understood you, and took it as it was written. I jumped in to help, and pointed few things in post #305; you didn't reply, which is a shame as others interested may learn from it too. Those are valid points. Sometimes, I think ppl don't really want help as such, but I get confused and it takes me a while to figure it out.
I truly hope you get the best out of that system, and enjoy it.

 

[CazPaul]

Firstly, out of all the responses that I have seen and read, I find this the most "well patronising" I suppose.

You don't know me, you don't know what I am trying to achieve, you clearly have no idea of trying to live between the realms of having fun in my MH and JJ explanation a few posts back.

But just to clarify a few things in your post.

There is nothing wrong with my system other than it can not allow me to live a life of being at home whilst away.... I am well aware of balancing those principles you mention. I am also aware that at this time in history, there is not a world of power use in a MH that can be replicated by good old fashion "EHU" .... Hence my "jesty" question of is Lithium the new con? I still have to do exactly what I did before Lithium with all the stuff I have had over that 20 years, check the power i'm using, move on, get a genny out, buy an efoy, therefore, nothing has changed, I might be able to do it longer, I might be able to it lighter, but check it I still do.

I am also fully aware that after 20 years of living over 3 months per year in a MH what the restrictions are to doing so and hence the amount of jest involved in my post and the element of people taking things way to seriously...

I've learnt rather a lot from my post about lithium products and peoples balanced responses which I hel;p will help others, especially mikash explanation above, whom has given an explanation backed up by those at Victron in a phone call this morning,.. There is nothing wrong with my system, only that I use to much power.

I will of course bow out now as clearly some don't understand either the question, or my stance on it. I really don't care how many amps I'm using what percentage of this or that is,.... I only want to be able to dry my wifes hair, cook in my air fryer and charge and run all her sex toys.

Cheers

Bang on there, after the chaps reply that you quoted I didn’t feel qualified to post again, it’s all been taken too seriously now and out of concept.
That’s the internet for you, we listed an item for sale on Facebook marketplace, a guy arranged to come, stayed in especially he didn’t turn up, I messaged him to ask why and the reply was F__K off

 

[AdrianChen]

I personally, probably miss-understood you, and took it as it was written. I jumped in to help, and pointed few things in post #305; you didn't reply, which is a shame as others interested may learn from it too. Those are valid points. Sometimes, I think ppl don't really want help as such, but I get confused and it takes me a while to figure it out.
I truly hope you get the best out of that system, and enjoy it.

Me too, but then I talk rubbish anyway!

 

[haganap]

If you were confused Raul, then so were
others. The OP has changed his tune a few times in the course of this discussion and now seems to be claiming it was all just a joke. A shame we all wasted our time trying to help, but hopefully others will have gotten something useful from the discussion.

No I haven't? the tunes been the same from the start?

I'm also not claiming it's a joke, I've claimed all along, the power for the hungry can't be met by the needs of lithium without having to revert back to how it was years ago, watch what you use, don't use too much....

What I joke about is the expectations of myself (and probably many others)

What you done as did others, was offer opinions, advice (and lectures in some cases) which not only myself, but others might find useful.
Threads develop as they go, always have and always will. I also note a comment whereby someone found your explanation or at least the fact that some of us either don't understand it or can't be bothered to understand it quite rude and or patronising.

I think this is sadly where MHF sits now.

It used to be a community, whereby many of those that have posted in this thread know or have met me, knew exactly where I was coming from, whereby for others, this forum is a "leading resource for information" I think this thread has proved, it can't be both... Some of the comments have been completely off the mark, sadly including yours.

I AM NOT THE OP -- I am and always have been Haganap or Haggers if you so wish... a few even call me Paul.

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