Lithium batteries what to go for

[garry63]

Hi all
Looking at lithium battery
Got a 110ah lead battery now
If I upgrade is a lithium 230a twice the capacity of the 110ah and a 3000a 3xbetter or does it not work like that?

 

[funflair]

Aren’t AGM’s better than GEL ? I’ve heard GEL are a bit fragile ?

Not in my book, but never had AGM though.

 

[68c]

I think litium batteries are best for those that really understand them. Although there is a good weight saving for the same useable amp hours, they are far more complicated than a simple lead acid battery. They have their own 'brain' in that they have a Battery Maintenance Systen computer built in that protects the battery from over charging, too great a discharge current etc. They may also shut down when at a low state of charge as a further protection. All well and good for someone who understands these things but problematical to many. The lead acid battery is dumb, no brain just a store of energy.

 

[Lenny HB]

How far apart can the 2 batteries be?

Within reason as far as you like providing they are wired correctly. You need to ensure cables are heavy enough to minimise volt drop and each battery is fused. The positive feed needs to be taken from one battery and the negative from the other one.

 

[haganap]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but notice a lithium battery for sale for a good few quid with the advert saying "Game Changer"

I am trying to find out exactly why this is.

My current set up is 200w Solar Panel.
x3 semi traction batteries a really good German make.
An effoy charger.

Noticing from one of the contributors Hugoman on this thread who shared their electrobloc charger which is the same as mine. My van is normally plugged in at home, my batteries work fine right now and I rarely run out of power if at all to be honest. I have a 3kw inverter which is set to go live when off grid so everything works on 230/240 (whichever we go with).

So my question(s) is this.

1) could I just drop the Lithium battery in and not change the electrobloc or install a B2B charger? If no, why not please, just so I can understand.
2) Why would the game change from my current set up. Taking away the cost of effoy fuel which is barely used btw, a bit more space in the locker instead of the effoy and I have no weight issues.
3) Quite keen on this battery that is for sale as a drop in replacement but don't want to change the world in order for this to happen, is it simply a case of being to brag to everyone that "yeah John, I'm running Lithium" or is there likely to be some benefit to solving a problem that I don't have?

thanks, and sorry to Hijack the thread, just seems that when reading through this similar questions are being asked

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[Langtoftlad]

I do keep wondering about Lithium, especially as my LA must be due to expire soon [2017]... but also wonder what I'd get 'extra' for the additional expense given that I've found my current [geddit] setup mostly adequate.

 

[haganap]

I do keep wondering about Lithium, especially as my LA must be due to expire soon [2017]... but also wonder what I'd get 'extra' for the additional expense given that I've found my current [geddit] setup mostly adequate.

pretty much why I am asking. I just need to understand.

If its no more than a posers tool for discussion at the rally table, that's fine, but at least I would know why I parted with the horrendous expense.

 

[Lenny HB]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but notice a lithium battery for sale for a good few quid with the advert saying "Game Changer"

I am trying to find out exactly why this is.

My current set up is 200w Solar Panel.
x3 semi traction batteries a really good German make.
An effoy charger.

Noticing from one of the contributors Hugoman on this thread who shared their electrobloc charger which is the same as mine. My van is normally plugged in at home, my batteries work fine right now and I rarely run out of power if at all to be honest. I have a 3kw inverter which is set to go live when off grid so everything works on 230/240 (whichever we go with).

So my question(s) is this.

1) could I just drop the Lithium battery in and not change the electrobloc or install a B2B charger? If no, why not please, just so I can understand.
2) Why would the game change from my current set up. Taking away the cost of effoy fuel which is barely used btw, a bit more space in the locker instead of the effoy and I have no weight issues.
3) Quite keen on this battery that is for sale as a drop in replacement but don't want to change the world in order for this to happen, is it simply a case of being to brag to everyone that "yeah John, I'm running Lithium" or is there likely to be some benefit to solving a problem that I don't have?

thanks, and sorry to Hijack the thread, just seems that when reading through this similar questions are being asked

Traction batteries are very good, I wouldn't change them unless they are towards the end of their life or you need more power.

Whatever suppliers say about being a drop in replacement you will never get the best out of Lithium batteries unless you have the proper charging paramiters.

With the Elektroblock you can disable the leisure battery charging by pulling a fuse and then you can fit a mains charger with the correct charging profile this can be done for as little as £150 depending on what you go for.
You will need to check you solar controller has a Lithium profile if not that will need changing.
I think your van has a smart alternator so probably has a B2B if not you will need one and if you have one check it has a Lithium profile.

 

[Hugoman]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but notice a lithium battery for sale for a good few quid with the advert saying "Game Changer"

I am trying to find out exactly why this is.

My current set up is 200w Solar Panel.
x3 semi traction batteries a really good German make.
An effoy charger.

Noticing from one of the contributors Hugoman on this thread who shared their electrobloc charger which is the same as mine. My van is normally plugged in at home, my batteries work fine right now and I rarely run out of power if at all to be honest. I have a 3kw inverter which is set to go live when off grid so everything works on 230/240 (whichever we go with).

So my question(s) is this.

1) could I just drop the Lithium battery in and not change the electrobloc or install a B2B charger? If no, why not please, just so I can understand.
2) Why would the game change from my current set up. Taking away the cost of effoy fuel which is barely used btw, a bit more space in the locker instead of the effoy and I have no weight issues.
3) Quite keen on this battery that is for sale as a drop in replacement but don't want to change the world in order for this to happen, is it simply a case of being to brag to everyone that "yeah John, I'm running Lithium" or is there likely to be some benefit to solving a problem that I don't have?

thanks, and sorry to Hijack the thread, just seems that when reading through this similar questions are being asked

Hey…you’ve hijacked my hijack !

 

[Hugoman]

Traction batteries are very good, I wouldn't change them unless they are towards the end of their life or you need more power.

Whatever suppliers say about being a drop in replacement you will never get the best out of Lithium batteries unless you have the proper charging paramiters.

With the Elektroblock you can disable the leisure battery charging by pulling a fuse and then you can fit a mains charger with the correct charging profile this can be done for as little as £150 depending on what you go for.
You will need to check you solar controller has a Lithium profile if not that will need changing.
I think your van has a smart alternator so probably has a B2B if not you will need one and if you have one check it has a Lithium profile.

Why haven’t YOU got Lithium ? It sounds like the perfect type as you are mostly off grid ? Why did you chose Gel ?

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[Lenny HB]

Why haven’t YOU got Lithium ? It sounds like the perfect type as you are mostly off grid ? Why did you chose Gel ?

No point in wasting money when the 3 Gels I have do every thing I ask of them.
Also when I bought this van 6 years ago a 100ah Lithium was the wrong side of a 1000 quid.
New van when it comes will be getting Lithium.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Traction batteries are very good

What might be a "Semi Traction Battery" ?
https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-110ah-expedition-plus-semi-traction-leisure-battery/

Best of both worlds, worst of both?
Marketing hyperbole?

Just wondering about end of life replacements for my 2 existing Banners - and they're £25 cheaper!

Edit:
Apparently, the Banner's are also tagged "semi" traction

 

[Hugoman]

Using AGM's on the Gel setting is a quick way of killing them AGM's require the correct charging profile if they stand a change of lasting and there are type 1 & type 2 AGM's they have different charging voltages.

If you fit a second 80/95 ah battery they recommend you fit the 18 amp auxiliary charger which increases the charging rate to 36 amps.
However unless you are constantly charging batteries from fairly flat you can get away without it.
I have 3 x 78 ah Gels with the standard charger but we only use mains for probably 5 or 6 nights a year out of the 120 - 150 nights a year in the van.

I’ve already got 2 AGM’s …85ah each…if I replaced them with two 85ah Gels then that should be OK …assuming 85ah Gels are same length as my 85ah AGM’s as by battery cupboard is tight….but I should really fit an 18 amp auxiliary charger via the Zu-Lade like autorouter and monzer say ?

Actually just noticed they are 92Ah each

 

[MisterB]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but notice a lithium battery for sale for a good few quid with the advert saying "Game Changer"

I am trying to find out exactly why this is.

My current set up is 200w Solar Panel.
x3 semi traction batteries a really good German make.
An effoy charger.

Noticing from one of the contributors Hugoman on this thread who shared their electrobloc charger which is the same as mine. My van is normally plugged in at home, my batteries work fine right now and I rarely run out of power if at all to be honest. I have a 3kw inverter which is set to go live when off grid so everything works on 230/240 (whichever we go with).

So my question(s) is this.

1) could I just drop the Lithium battery in and not change the electrobloc or install a B2B charger? If no, why not please, just so I can understand.
2) Why would the game change from my current set up. Taking away the cost of effoy fuel which is barely used btw, a bit more space in the locker instead of the effoy and I have no weight issues.
3) Quite keen on this battery that is for sale as a drop in replacement but don't want to change the world in order for this to happen, is it simply a case of being to brag to everyone that "yeah John, I'm running Lithium" or is there likely to be some benefit to solving a problem that I don't have?

thanks, and sorry to Hijack the thread, just seems that when reading through this similar questions are being asked

I think that battery on the classifieds isn't keenly priced when compared to other brand new 'makes', but only you can make that decision as to whether it is priced at a figure you think makes sense. I think the battery advertised when bought wasn't cheap when it was bought, so I understand why the seller has priced it as they have, as I would prob look to do the same as they have.

 

[autorouter]

but I should really fit an 18 amp auxiliary charger via the Zu-Lade like @autorouter and @monzer say ?

A good smart mains charger like a Victron BlueSmart IP65 will be fine charging a large battery bank, it can push out its full amps output all day no problem. Some older chargers seem to have a problem doing that, including the internal charger of the EBL. It eventually fails in the long term. Hence the advice to add a second auxiliary charger for a bank of two or more batteries.

The only advantage of sending the second mains charger through the EBL is that it goes through the internal shunt which measures the amps, so the display keeps track of the amps going in and out of the batteries, and can calculate a percentage state of charge (SOC). You could fit a new charger that goes directly to the batteries, and just live with the erroneous SOC readout - the voltages will still be fine. Or fit a separate battery monitor, with a shunt on the battery negative terminal, which will also be good if you decide to wire the solar or B2B directly to the batteries in the future.

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[Hugoman]

A good smart mains charger like a Victron BlueSmart IP65 will be fine charging a large battery bank, it can push out its full amps output all day no problem. Some older chargers seem to have a problem doing that, including the internal charger of the EBL. It eventually fails in the long term. Hence the advice to add a second auxiliary charger for a bank of two or more batteries.

The only advantage of sending the second mains charger through the EBL is that it goes through the internal shunt which measures the amps, so the display keeps track of the amps going in and out of the batteries, and can calculate a percentage state of charge (SOC). You could fit a new charger that goes directly to the batteries, and just live with the erroneous SOC readout - the voltages will still be fine. Or fit a separate battery monitor, with a shunt on the battery negative terminal, which will also be good if you decide to wire the solar or B2B directly to the batteries in the future.

HaHa….struggling to keep up…the only shunt I’ve experienced is when I drove into the back of a lady who decided to stop at a set of traffic lights that were green .

Is this what we are talking about ? One end plugs into the zu-Lade…where do I plug the 3 pin in ? Got no socket near the EBL.

 

[autorouter]

Is this what we are talking about ? One end plugs into the zu-Lade…where do I plug the 3 pin in ? Got no socket near the EBL.

Yes, but be careful because they come in different amp outputs, that one is 5A. I have the 15A version, and they do a 25A one. The IP22 version is a bit less expensive, a bit bigger and is more fussy about where it can be mounted, but basically the same charger, and is very popular on here.

The 2-way front panel connector is about at its limit for an 18A charger, if you want a 25A it would have to go direct to the batteries. The 2-way is an MNL (Mate'N'Lok) connector, available from auto electrics suppliers like 12VoltPlanet, or EBay. It comes as a connector shell and separate pins. Crimp the pins onto the wires using standard NON-insulated crimp pliers, then slide them into the shell until they click and lock.

 

[Hugoman]

Yes, but be careful because they come in different amp outputs, that one is 5A. I have the 15A version, and they do a 25A one. The IP22 version is a bit less expensive, a bit bigger and is more fussy about where it can be mounted, but basically the same charger, and is very popular on here.

The 2-way front panel connector is about at its limit for an 18A charger, if you want a 25A it would have to go direct to the batteries. The 2-way is an MNL (Mate'N'Lok) connector, available from auto electrics suppliers like 12VoltPlanet, or EBay. It comes as a connector shell and separate pins. Crimp the pins onto the wires using standard NON-insulated crimp pliers, then slide them into the shell until they click and lock.

What about the 3 pin power plug ? Where would I plug that in ?

 

[monzer]

What about the 3 pin power plug ? Where would I plug that in ?

Now I'm following this with interest as I think I'll probably be adding an aux charger and I would like it through the EBL. I'm presuming the plug wouldn't be used. Cut it off and wire directly in to the 'block 7' on your EBL. That would power it when on hook up through the fuse below it on your picture. You would then run the charging cables direct to batteries.

Don't go cutting anything off until someone confirms this of course!!

So Mains power > Block 7 on EBL > batteries via EBL fuse.

 

[autorouter]

What about the 3 pin power plug ? Where would I plug that in ?

Now I'm following this with interest as I think I'll probably be adding an aux charger and I would like it through the EBL. I'm presuming the plug wouldn't be used. Cut it off and wire directly in to the 'block 7' on your EBL. That would power it when on hook up through the fuse below it on your picture. You would then run the charging cables direct to batteries.

Let's not get the 12V and 240V mixed up. The 2-way 'Block 7' connector on the front of the EBL is a 12V INPUT, for the 12V OUTPUT of the charger, not 240V the mains input.

For getting a 240V mains supply, you could make a splitter, to plug into the existing IEC type 'kettle' socket on the end of the wire taking the mains into the EBL. Cut off the existing 13A plug on the charger, and fit an IEC plug, then make a splitter to take one plug to two sockets. The amps requirement is very low, so the cable will easily cope. Rewireable IEC plugs and sockets are available.
Amazon product ASIN B06XT72W11To be pedantic, it's not a 'kettle' plug. Kettle plugs have a raised bar in the centre, and the sockets have a cutout to allow the two to mate together. A standard 'cold condition' socket won't fit in a kettle because of this. The plugs on the EBL are 'cold condition' types, like the ones in the link.

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[suavecarve]

Noticing from one of the contributors @Hugoman on this thread who shared their electrobloc charger which is the same as mine. My van is normally plugged in at home, my batteries work fine right now and I rarely run out of power if at all to be honest. I have a 3kw inverter which is set to go live when off grid so everything works on 230/240 (whichever we go with).

Our only reason for going Lithium was for the E bikes in a new van.
I m fairly certain youre still too fit to even consider an Ebike and without knowing if you have microwave etc and you rarely run out then I think youre spot on about the rally chat.
When you go skiing it would probably be of use but I suspect you hook up.
I m not sure Lithium (which we have) is the "must have" but more a "want to have" for people who have survived quite well without it when it was unbelievably expensive and in reality, if 200 ah of gel does someone good enough then why pay out up to 6-700 to upgrade lithium and solar to feed it.

 

[garry63]

This is my set up on mh
Sergent unit 1x 110a battery and 130w solar to mppt controller
If I go for lithium what would I need to do this or if I swapped battery for 2x newer batteries?
Please in simple terms as not clued up on kit
I did fit my own solar no problem

 

[garry63]

 

[suavecarve]

This is my set up on mh
Sergent unit 1x 110a battery and 130w solar to mppt controller
If I go for lithium what would I need to do this or if I swapped battery for 2x newer batteries?
Please in simple terms as not clued up on kit
I did fit my own solar no problem

I m trying to remember ............ youre off to ireland for 3 weeks in the summer and have survived with the present set up ?

If that is correct, for me, I would just double up the battery and add another 1-200 watts of solar and on the basis you survived previously you will be loaded this time. If you went for the same amount of available power from Lithium (100 ah) you will still need to add solar and the other stuff. I reckon youre 3-400 pounds better off staying with Gel. And thats where your decision making comes in. 3-400 nicker in pocket versus saying you have lithium for the same power availability but a longer recharge time which you dont need

That battery compartment looks small to me so the batteries to move under the seat or can one of them go next to it in the next compartment as that looks like the battery compartment has been built for one battery and if it is under a seat then you should get 2 gels in there, otherwise one battery under seat and ensure the correct size of wire to connect the 2 of them.

 

[Lenny HB]

What might be a "Semi Traction Battery" ?
https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-110ah-expedition-plus-semi-traction-leisure-battery/

Best of both worlds, worst of both?
Marketing hyperbole?

Just wondering about end of life replacements for my 2 existing Banners - and they're £25 cheaper!

Edit:
Apparently, the Banner's are also tagged "semi" traction

Not seen them before traction batteries are normally 6v.
Perhaps the phase semi-traction is a marketing con.

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[garry63]

I m trying to remember ............ youre off to ireland for 3 weeks in the summer and have survived with the present set up ?

If that is correct, for me, I would just double up the battery and add another 1-200 watts of solar and on the basis you survived previously you will be loaded this time. If you went for the same amount of available power from Lithium (100 ah) you will still need to add solar and the other stuff. I reckon youre 3-400 pounds better off staying with Gel. And thats where your decision making comes in. 3-400 nicker in pocket versus saying you have lithium for the same power availability but a longer recharge time which you dont need

That battery compartment looks small to me so the batteries to move under the seat or can one of them go next to it in the next compartment as that looks like the battery compartment has been built for one battery and if it is under a seat then you should get 2 gels in there, otherwise one battery under seat and ensure the correct size of wire to connect the 2 of them.

I have 1x130w panel now no room for 1 more on roof
I can put extra battery in cupboard where charger is no problem
If I went for gels then would I need a different charger or would existing sergant be ok

 

[suavecarve]

I have 1x130w panel now no room for 1 more on roof
I can put extra battery in cupboard where charger is no problem
If I went for gels then would I need a different charger or would existing sergant be ok

I think yours is designed for lead acid but "may" be suitable for gels if the conditions are right if I remember right.
I m no expert but that just sounds like nothing to worry about to me ..... Or just get the lead acids

 

[garry63]

Within reason as far as you like providing they are wired correctly. You need to ensure cables are heavy enough to minimise volt drop and each battery is fused. The positive feed needs to be taken from one battery and the negative from the other one.

This is whats on my mh
1x 130w solar mppt controller
1x 110a battery
sergant fuse box with charger
If I upgrade to none lithium and want 2x batteries( best possible)
Do I need extra kit or can I drop new ones in using existing charger, if not how easy is it to fit new charger and whats advantage of b2b?

 

[garry63]

Within reason as far as you like providing they are wired correctly. You need to ensure cables are heavy enough to minimise volt drop and each battery is fused. The positive feed needs to be taken from one battery and the negative from the other one.

 

[autorouter]

I think you need to be careful with that Sargent EC325. It has an unusual 'off-line charging' mode. Basically it has two power supplies. When on hookup, it powers the habitation from a mains 12V power supply. It disconnects the leisure batteries completely from the habitation circuits, and charges them with a separate charger. But apparently the charging voltage can be as high as 18V. In theory that doesn't matter, because the battery is separate. But if you have connected something directly to the batteries, like some 12V power sockets or a solar regulator, then it will get the full 18V, which might not be what you want. And I don't think it's any good for gel or AGM batteries.
I've just been looking at this:

Sargent EC325 remanufactured Units. Sargent charger Repairs.

Sargent EC325 Remanufactured Units with fitting available. 12 month guarantee. How to connect Solar to a Sargent EC325 and EC225. Sargent Chargers repaired and sold. EC160 to EC 500

www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk

So might be better to isolate the built-in charger and add another more suitable one if changing the type of battery.

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[headlight]

iirc you do not use any high drain electrical items and have managed previously with your single 110AH battery.
In which case I can't see that you need lithium.
2 x 110AH lead acid batteries will double your usable amps and work fine with your present charging systems.
FYI last summer I did 24 consecutive nights off grid with 2 x 100AH lead acids and 100 watts of solar.
I stayed put the 24 nights so no engine charging.
I watched on average 3-4 hours of TV a day using a small inverter as my TV is 240v mains, lighting, water pump, charging mobiles etc.
My batteries were fully charged every day by early afternoon.
I have no intention of getting lithium as my usage doesn't require them.