Leaving the UK during arrival self-isolating.

[bobandjanie]

In Spain it's illegal to drive a vehicle without an mot, we have to get it taken to the centre on a truck, the same happens when they stop a illegal vehicle it's taken to a compound until transport has been organised and the fine and storage has been paid.

It might be OK in the UK booking an appointment and driving to the nearest garage, but how do other countries see it.
I would be very surprised if they think it's fine driving 1000 / 1500 km in an illegal vehicle.

You do seem to make a mountain out of a molehill, and for the last year or more you have been trying to find loopholes.

We decided not to maltriculate our old motorhome, so couldn't bring it in as personal belongings, and went to Germany to buy LHD not a cheap option, but what it cost to do RHD just devalues them. Bob.

 

[Northernraider]

That would not comply with both 11 and 12 in my post - cannot go direct to isolation location and MOT at same time immediately after arrival.

You can however take vehicle to mot station leave it there and proceed to isolation location
Lets face it you're going to have to break one or 2 laws somewhere ...and personally i wouldn't have bothered asking on here because you are always going to get judged by someone.

The way i see it you can't possibly win without bending a rule somewhere...
Just do what you decide and dont bother asking folks opinions.
Too easy for people not in a situation to judge others who are.

 

[Veggiechris]

You can Self Isolate/Quarantine in your van as you travel across Europe. This is OK with UK Govt, totally legal- under "Private Vehicles" (see regulations) - I did it and arrived at Tunnel on 18th December, and went through English Border with no problems.

 

[Minxy]

You can however take vehicle to mot station leave it there and proceed to isolation location
Lets face it you're going to have to break one or 2 laws somewhere ...and personally i wouldn't have bothered asking on here because you are always going to get judged by someone.

The way i see it you can't possibly win without bending a rule somewhere...
Just do what you decide and dont bother asking folks opinions.
Too easy for people not in a situation to judge others who are.

I disagree about you saying not to asking about it on here, he wanted to know if there was a way to do it without causing issues, or at least as few as possible, and others may have been able to do it and offer advice or possible solutions, which is what has happened.

This isn't just a motorhome forum, this is The Motorhome Fun Forum!

 

[gus-lopez]

I could try going to court but since the government have taken over the appointment of Judges, against EU ruling, I do not fancy my chances.

You could use the EU " your Europe advice" & then the Solvit process & get them to do the work for you?
having said that it would be Basia who would have to do it as the EU assistance & technical departments are now no longer able to be used by UK citizens even those permanently resident & covered by the WA.
I've always used them as gus-lopez though so a Polish name would be useful.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/

https://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm

Worth asking questions of them even if it does nothing but make work for the authorities it will also count when any financial punishments are instigated .That was what changed the health law here the multi hundred million euros fines facing Valencia & Andalucia over there abuse of foreign nationals when registering for health care. In Valencia's case the removal of legally obtained healthcare long after it had been in place.

Don't really get that I would have presumed it was like importing into the uk when we were in the eu vat either in the country you bought in or ours?

No as others have said many countries impose import tax once you have lost your right to the free " goods & chattels" Just the same as a dealer has to pay it-

Here it is the same tax whether you are importing it or just selling it .It is 4,1% of the governments agreed yearly vehicle value.
Starts at 100% less than a year old & reduces by 10% each year up to 10.Then stays at 10%.
So if I sell you my MH that was 100k new & is 10 years old ,so has a government" value" of 10k then one of us has to pay 4.1% or 410€ for the transfer. Dealers build it in to the price. private sales the buyer is liable but as you can't rely on them doing it normally seller & buyer split it.

nd I don't know, but I can't imagine going down that road will be less costly than paying the import tax

Using the above links gets the work done for you + if they are acting illegally you also can end up with findings in your favour just to get rid of you & if they are intransigent then the EU impose multi million euro fines.

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[Northernraider]

I disagree about you saying not to asking about it on here, he wanted to know if there was a way to do it without causing issues, or at least as few as possible, and others may have been able to do it and offer advice or possible solutions, which is what has happened.

This isn't just a motorhome forum, this is The Motorhome Fun Forum!

I did say "personally"

but there is no way he can do it without breaking the law somewhere whether it's in poland , en route or in the uk so as was proved there are always those quick to judge.

Every possible solution involves breaking some rule or other and we all know there are a lot of saint's on here who never break any rules

 

[The Wino]

You can however take vehicle to mot station leave it there and proceed to isolation location
Lets face it you're going to have to break one or 2 laws somewhere ...and personally i wouldn't have bothered asking on here because you are always going to get judged by someone.

The way i see it you can't possibly win without bending a rule somewhere...
Just do what you decide and dont bother asking folks opinions.
Too easy for people not in a situation to judge others who are.

As a matter of interest would you tell the mot station you had just travelled across Europe and were on your way to isolation they might not be very keen!
There isn't a right answer as the circumstances are not that common I suppose it's a matter of which rules to break.

 

[Northernraider]

As a matter of interest would you tell the mot station you had just travelled across Europe and were on your way to isolation they might not be very keen!
There isn't a right answer as the circumstances are not that common I suppose it's a matter of which rules to break.

No but then i wouldn't have asked either lol.

The less people know about you breaking the law the better in my book.

 

[TDub49]

Firstly thank you to Landy Andy who gave me the definitive answer to my Q in my OP about leaving the UK duting quarantine. I had not found the 'national lockdown rules for England. because I had searched for ''travel to UK' and had read

Entering the UK

UK border control - passport checks, visas for entering, customs, transiting and layovers.

www.gov.uk

Which while it covers some of the main points does not cover the leaving part during quarantine. Not very helpful to have two documents with differing contents.

Now to cover the points raised by several of you separately.

I find myself required to abide by the following laws and rules.

1 I am required under Polish law to re-register my MH in Poland.
2 I am not legally allowed to re-register my MH in Poland
3 All vehicles must be registered in one country or another
4 The MH is currently legally registered in UK
5 UK law requires that my MH has an MOT
6 My MH's MOT expires on 31.01.2021
7 DVSA have already extended the MOT for 6 months along with all others to that date of 31.01.2021
8 DVSA have been advised of the problem and have not offered a further extension
9 Polish law does not prevent me from travel.
10 UK law permits me under certain conditions to enter UK
11 Once in the UK without an MOT I am only permitted to drive directly to aa pre-booked MOT test.
12 Quarantine rules require that once in the UK I must drive directly to my designated place for self-isolation
13 UK Covid rules prohibit me from travelling for an MOT (but not clear if, apart from self-isolation rules, this applies to visitors)

My question to those that have pointed out laws and rules that I should obey, would you please advise which of the contradicting laws and rules I should ignore and with which comply and how.?

Contacting any Agency involved in overseeing the above laws and rules with the same question will proably result in the same answer as DVSA of only quoting the ones for which they are responsible, adding that they cannot give answers on the other points and to contact ........

There is then the requirement of my MH insurance policy which requires that the MH has an MOT 'if required', but unhelpfully not specifying when, where and by whom, whether them or another party, it might be 'required'. Maybe directing similar questions to the Underwriters might, or not, produce an answer.

You all no doubt have heard of Catch 22, but have you heard of Catch 88?

I look forward with eager anticipation to posters' answer to my question above.

Until the answers arrive I shall refrain from booking a ferry.

Geoff

[EDIT: Forgot to include
A That I am prohibited from SORNing the MH because it is not in Great Britain and DVSA have not permitted that to be allowed]
B My driving licence which expired on 05.01.2021 has not yet been renewed by DVLA after 2 months from application.]

Tricky situation and not many legal ways out. Personally I think the virus trumps every other consideration and you should speak to the Polish authorities and claim extenuating circumstances. Who knows, they may find a way to register your van out there when pushed?

 

[The Wino]

No but then i wouldn't have asked either lol.

The less people know about you breaking the law the better in my book.

I don't think many mot testers would even think of the possibility that someone presenting a vehicle for an mot would have just driven across Europe and be in effect in isolation!

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[gus-lopez]

As a matter of interest would you tell the mot station you had just travelled across Europe and were on your way to isolation they might not be very keen!

I don't think many mot testers would even think of the possibility that someone presenting a vehicle for an mot would have just driven across Europe and be in effect in isolation!

A friend of my wife who works for the same firm had her client infected with covid by the son. Client transmitted it to wife's friend & then died a few days later.
Carer who has tested + is now not being paid & told by the firm that unless they start work after the 10 days isolation they will lose the 'guaranteed work' payments. So they are basically telling her to go to a new client whilst still possibly infected .& yes she is suffering from many of the symptoms. I don't think any one wanting care assistance would think a company would do that.

 

[nicholsong]

You could use the EU " your Europe advice" & then the Solvit process & get them to do the work for you?
having said that it would be Basia who would have to do it as the EU assistance & technical departments are now no longer able to be used by UK citizens even those permanently resident & covered by the WA.
I've always used them as gus-lopez though so a Polish name would be useful.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/

https://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm

Worth asking questions of them even if it does nothing but make work for the authorities it will also count when any financial punishments are instigated .That was what changed the health law here the multi hundred million euros fines facing Valencia & Andalucia over there abuse of foreign nationals when registering for health care. In Valencia's case the removal of legally obtained healthcare long after it had been in place.


No as others have said many countries impose import tax once you have lost your right to the free " goods & chattels" Just the same as a dealer has to pay it-

Here it is the same tax whether you are importing it or just selling it .It is 4,1% of the governments agreed yearly vehicle value.
Starts at 100% less than a year old & reduces by 10% each year up to 10.Then stays at 10%.
So if I sell you my MH that was 100k new & is 10 years old ,so has a government" value" of 10k then one of us has to pay 4.1% or 410€ for the transfer. Dealers build it in to the price. private sales the buyer is liable but as you can't rely on them doing it normally seller & buyer split it.

Using the above links gets the work done for you + if they are acting illegally you also can end up with findings in your favour just to get rid of you & if they are intransigent then the EU impose multi million euro fines.

Thanks Gus

After I have exhausted what appeals are open to me here I am going to go the EU route as you suggested, but thanks for the links and some of the detail, like not accepting representations from even Permanent Residents.

I think the Polish government may already be subject to fines on this RHD issue as they have not adhered to the ruling in the ECJ. They are certainly already being fined for not complying with EU principles regarding the appointment of Judges.

If I do go the EU route, I may be able to claim that at some point the matter is sub judice and therefore they are constrained from taking any legal action pending the EU answer., not that anyone seems to be interested at the moment in enforcing any law.

On that last point I could possibly just keep my head down. The MH does not really go anywhere much in Poland as we are usually straight onto the M/way towards Dresden and France/UK and we could be just another British tourist coming from Krakow.

Geoff

 

[Minxy]

I did say "personally"

but there is no way he can do it without breaking the law somewhere whether it's in poland , en route or in the uk so as was proved there are always those quick to judge.

Every possible solution involves breaking some rule or other and we all know there are a lot of saint's on here who never break any rules

I was commenting ref your penultimate sentence ... see below:

You can however take vehicle to mot station leave it there and proceed to isolation location
Lets face it you're going to have to break one or 2 laws somewhere ...and personally i wouldn't have bothered asking on here because you are always going to get judged by someone.

The way i see it you can't possibly win without bending a rule somewhere...
Just do what you decide and dont bother asking folks opinions.
Too easy for people not in a situation to judge others who are.

 

[Barclaybasher]

I'd cost up driving back + ferry against a quote to have it transported direct to UK storage. MOT could wait until I was able to travel back, take for MOT then decide whether to sell or keep.

 

[Northernraider]

I was commenting ref your penultimate sentence ... see below:

I know

And look at some of the responses he got.

Most on here can only really advise on the uk point of view on it ...not many stay in Poland.

Like I said Geoffrey will have to break a few rules somewhere, I'd be inclined just to make the choice where and then go for .

I'd also adopt the view of asking forgiveness claiming ignorance than asking permission and then having no defence.

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[Minxy]

I'd cost up driving back + ferry against a quote to have it transported direct to UK storage. MOT could wait until I was able to travel back, take for MOT then decide whether to sell or keep.

If having it transported back was the chosen option I'd leave it for now and decide once the Polish registration has been resolved one way or another.

 

[nicholsong]

After I have exhausted what appeals are op

If having it transported back was the chosen option I'd leave it for now and decide once the Polish registration has been resolved one way or another.

It is not going anywhere till I have exhausted any appeals process: it would be stupid to send it to UK and then win one of the appeals when it is already 1000 miles away.

Geoff

 

[Tony50]

I think your response is somewhat blinkered. The virus was spreading seriously before Christmas due to mismanagement of every aspect to do with dealing with it in a timely manner.

I don't think people getting together, or "some on here" are to blame for lockdown 3.

I sympathise with the OP cause he is in a no win situation. I wonder whether you would be as sympathetic if he came over after lockdown as per your sentiments, and rear ended your car on the motorway?

I doubt you would congratulate him for being so morally upstanding by complying with rules during lockdown, when you are told he is uninsured because his motor hasn't got a ticket on it?

I think if you look back at the history of the virus from last March there were gaps when we tiers were quite low in UK ,but if you care to look back at other countries you will find some were on high tiers when we were low, which suggests to me if you have something pressings coming up you should act asap, that is what I would do, I was not suggesting he done something unlawful, We cancelled our 2 month trip to Spain, earlier this year, I'll say again it's people that spread the virus, apart from NHS, + not only are people dying so are businesses, so I don't know why your being grumpy ?

 

[gus-lopez]

geoff nicholsong just come across this in the " 10 day quarantine" stating that you can leave if there for less time than 10 days.

"The 10-day self-isolation period is necessary because it can take up to 10 days for coronavirus symptoms to appear. If you’re travelling to England for less than 10 days, you will be expected to self-isolate for the length of your stay, but you can travel directly to your place of departure. It is important to note that under the national lockdown rules for England, you must not leave or be outside of your place of residence except where necessary."

from here;
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...how-to-self-isolate-when-you-travel-to-the-uk

 

[Clipgate]

Raab today
Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab told the BBC'S Andrew Marr Show on Sunday that Public Health England would be stepping up checks on travellers who must self-isolate.

He said enforcement checks at borders would also be "ramped up" and added that asking all arrivals to self-isolate in hotels was a "potential measure" the government was keeping under review.

Passengers arriving into London's Heathrow airport on Monday said they had been met with "substantial" queues at passport control and one couple complained they had "felt unsafe" due to what they described as poor social distancing.
I understand some have chosen to pay the £500 fine as not prepared to share data (allegedly)
Be sure there data in captured in many ways.

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[Clipgate]

Just a thought, how many deaths from flue have been recorded, it's that time of year when hospitals can rarely cope without Covid.

 

[Paulypaul]

We got back into UK on 12th Jan. Isolated for 10 days startibg from 13th and not even a sniff of a phone call or anything to check we were complying! A waste of 10 days at home for all that it's worth, if they don't give a monkeys

Stepping up checks

 

[Tony50]

We got back into UK on 12th Jan. Isolated for 10 days startibg from 13th and not even a sniff of a phone call or anything to check we were complying! A waste of 10 days at home for all that it's worth, if they don't give a monkeys

Stepping up checks

At least you done the correct thing ,protecting others well done ,and, thank you

 

[Minxy]

We got back into UK on 12th Jan. Isolated for 10 days startibg from 13th and not even a sniff of a phone call or anything to check we were complying! A waste of 10 days at home for all that it's worth, if they don't give a monkeys

Stepping up checks

They DO give a monkey's .... they are trusting YOU to do what is required, just as you have.

 

[gus-lopez]

understand some have chosen to pay the £500 fine as not prepared to share data (allegedly)
Be sure there data in captured in many ways.

Some also had no pcr tests but had to be allowed In as UK citizens. Can only Be reported to police But not actually fined at the airport.

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[nicholsong]

Some also had no pcr tests but had to be allowed In as UK citizens. Can only Be reported to police But not actually fined at the airport.

Reminds me of a time when my British ATPL(Captains Licence) read that it permitted me to re-enter the UK at any time.

No passport required.

I tested it once(out of uniform), and the Immigration Officer nodded and waved me through

Geoff

 

[nicholsong]

I know this thread has probably run out of steam but just an update.

INSURANCE WITHOUT MOT.

This was raised by some, particularly Brains post #37 and I wrot in post #92 that I was pressing for an Underwriter's(U/W), not broker's, answer on MOT. Today I received the U/W answer below, which may be of general interest although it obviously relates to my AXA policy

"All MOT tests, retests and contingency tests must be conducted within authorised vehicle testing stations ( VTSs ) by nominated testers ( NTs ) approved to test the class of vehicle as required by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency ( DVSA ). In regards to requirements vehicles require a MOT after the 3rd anniversary of its registration.

If a vehicle is off the road and not in use, you do not have to keep it taxed and insured – however, you must make a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN). A SORN car must be kept in a garage, a driveway or on private property, or the vehicle will still be considered to be on the road. If you do not SORN the vehicle then the MOT requirements need to be met.

There will be a requirement for Insurance if the vehicle is not SORN. If the vehicle is off road (but not SORN) and not being used cover will still be provided by the Insurance policy if all the conditions of the policy are met. "

Following that I wrote via the broker thanking the U/W and advising him that because of Covid as of 31.01.2021 the MOT expires and the MH is parked at my friends house in Poland in a gated yard. That I cannot SORN it because not in UK. That when I can I will drive straight to UK for pre-booked MOT. I wished to maintain the full policy cover.

They responded that cover for those circumstances would remain.

Sensible information from them and sensible decision on cover in the circumstances.

I believe it pays to get info and decisions to/from U/W. Maybe as an Insurance Lawyer my phrasing of letters in their 'speak' helps getting attention and gives them a clear understanding of the facts as they relate to their own policy wording. Which is why I insisted on receiving that instead of the broker's synopsis before I started addressing the problem.

My experience with U/Ws is that they sometimes like contact with the persons they insure - once got a specialist quote for my PI cover for Aviation Consultancy halved because the broker arranged a lunch with the U/W.

DRIVING LICENCE

Eventually got through to DVLA on different number provided by a Fun member, to discover they had sent my application back for some reason. It was sent on 8th Dec to my UK address but not re-directed by Royal Mail. The tenants had sat on it. Now delivered to my agents and dispatched by UPS this am so currently on its way. Should find out Mon what is the problem.

I now await other developments, but at least the MH, whilst going nowhere, is insured and will be for return to UK without MOT.

Geoff