Itsy bitsy teenie weenie payloads

[ABZSteve]

All this talk of payload, and the C1 D4 medical implications, are a reminder that I should dicuss upping the bribe to my Doctor. I will bring it up when we dine with her and her hubby this evening.

Maybe she would accept an up-front cash payment to cover the next 3 x D4s post-dated to cover 9 years

Nice thought, but it is not going to happen is it

 

[nicholsong]

Nice thought, but it is not going to happen is it

Well if it did I ain't going to tell, am I?

 

[ABZSteve]

Well if it did I ain't going to tell, am I?

The Doc's conscience and principles will not allow it - even if you promise not to tell

 

[Blue Knight]

Bailey Motorhomes Autograph Range:

1. 75-2: (2-belts/4-berth) 315kg.
2. 75-4: (4/4) 355kg.
3. 79-4: (4/4) 134kg @ 3.5T; 484kg @ 3.85T.
4. 79-5T: (4/4) 108kg @ 3.5T; 458kg @ 3.85T.

Notes: I'm not certain what is included in the MIRO figure.

 

[busby]

Bailey Motorhomes Autograph Range:

1. 75-2: (2-belts/4-berth) 315kg.
2. 75-4: (4/4) 355kg.
3. 79-4: (4/4) 134kg @ 3.5T; 484kg @ 3.85T.
4. 79-5T: (4/4) 108kg @ 3.5T; 458kg @ 3.85T.

Notes: I'm not certain what is included in the MIRO figure.

Trouble with manufacturers figures they are a bit like MPs promises,,know what I mean.BUSBY

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[PeteH]

All this talk of payload, and the C1 D4 medical implications, are a reminder that I should dicuss upping the bribe to my Doctor. I will bring it up when we dine with her and her hubby this evening.

Maybe she would accept an up-front cash payment to cover the next 3 x D4s post-dated to cover 9 years

The way things go in this country, It`s becoming the only way!. I suppose in retrospect I maybe should have voted stay?, after all, the bribery and corruption therein would help to cover up my minor infractions. Those in "high office" seem to get away with it on a regular enough basis. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, funny handshake).

 

[thebriars]

In weight terms the tolerance is somewhere in the 10kg - 20 kg range, which seems quite a lot, if you compare it with (say) an airline baggage weight allowance.

What reasonable explanation is there for such a big weight variance (excluding options) in a standardised product made in a factory, assembling basically the same hab materials and components on the same chassis for each model?

Its nothing to do with the way they are made but inaccuracies in weighing equipment. Public weighbridges are only accurate to about 5%. Its the same reason why they generally allow 5-10% error on speedo readings if you are caught over the limit.

 

[Blue Knight]

Roller Team Motorhomes (note: check out the number of births against payload - serial 8 is very poor):

1. T-line 740: (4-belts, 4-berths): 340kg.
2. T-Line 785: (4/4): 340kg.

3. Pegaso A-class 740: (4/4) 340kg.
4. Pegaso A-class 745: (4/4) 340kg.

5. Zefiro 696: (4/4 or opt 5/5): 345kg.
6. Zefiro 685: (4/4 or opt 5/5): 345kg.

7. Autoroller 746 (5/6 or opt 6/6): 425kg.
8. Autoroller 747 (6/6): 510kg.

Notes:

a. All Rollerteams can only be registered at 3.5T or 3.65T. The figures above relate to 3.5T registered vans only.
b. I believe the MIRO water figure is 10-litres only but this needs TBC by someone in the know.
c. The vans in serial 5, 6 and 7 can add an extra belted seat but this could potentially reduce the payload by 65kg.
d. The Pegaso A-class has the drivers pack fitted as standard but otherwise this is an optional pack for the other variants.
e. Carpets are not included in the payload and will remove a further 10kg.
f. All payload figures are based on the manual 130bhp engine versions. Larger engines and auto boxes will reduce the payload by c.33kg.
g. The bike racks are standard across rhe range and have a manufacturers approved load capacity of 75kg (COMMENT: Not that you'll have any payload of rear axle capacity to use such a facility).
h. The thermal pack is an optional extra across the range and will reduce the payload by c.10-15kg.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Its nothing to do with the way they are made but inaccuracies in weighing equipment. Public weighbridges are only accurate to about 5%. Its the same reason why they generally allow 5-10% error on speedo readings if you are caught over the limit.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I had assumed that there was a tolerance allowed in the manufacturing process that resulted in varying weights for the finished product. If the MH was slightly underweight I would be wondering what items had been missed off or cut too small. Or, if insufficient mastic had been placed in the joints.

So basically if I didn't have C1 entitlement I would still be OK if the weighbridge result was 3675 Kg. Rounded up to 3700 Kg?

The dimensions of the MH are not +/- 5%. We expect them to be quite accurate. Therefore, I still think the major MH converters should achieve better accuracy for their sales literature / website weight for each model before options. At the start, they could weigh the base vehicle, and all the materials. When it rolls off the production line, deduct the weight of offcuts and waste. The difference should be the accurate MH weight as a starting point for the MIRO figure. You probably don't need a weighbridge for that. Are manufacturers of small aircraft as imprecise, where weights and payloads are concerned?

Not providing a spare wheel and tyre to save weight is another trap for the unwary buyer. How much is that - about 45 kg? Some manufacturers fit them as standard, some don't.

The analogy of the teeny weeny payloads would be if a civil engineering firm were to design and build a bridge that might collapse if a vehicle tried to cross it. Not fit for purpose.

 

[Blue Knight]

Carthago @ 3.5T:

1. Chic C-Line I 4.8LE: 265kg.

2. Chic C-Line I 4.9LE: 245kg.

3. Chic C-Line T 4.8LE: 390kg.

4. C-Tourer I 150QB Lightweight: 395kg.

5. C-Tourer I 49 LE Lighyweight: 395kg.

Notes:

a. The options list is so extensive that you should plan on removing between 150kg to 250kg from the above quoted figures.
b. All models based on basic engine and manual gearbox option.
c. The rest of the Carthago range sees to be very payload friendly.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[thebriars]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I had assumed that there was a tolerance allowed in the manufacturing process that resulted in varying weights for the finished product. If the MH was slightly underweight I would be wondering what items had been missed off or cut too small. Or, if insufficient mastic had been placed in the joints.

So basically if I didn't have C1 entitlement I would still be OK if the weighbridge result was 3675 Kg. Rounded up to 3700 Kg?

The dimensions of the MH are not +/- 5%. We expect them to be quite accurate. Therefore, I still think the major MH converters should achieve better accuracy for their sales literature / website weight for each model before options. At the start, they could weigh the base vehicle, and all the materials. When it rolls off the production line, deduct the weight of offcuts and waste. The difference should be the accurate MH weight as a starting point for the MIRO figure. You probably don't need a weighbridge for that. Are manufacturers of small aircraft as imprecise, where weights and payloads are concerned?

Not providing a spare wheel and tyre to save weight is another trap for the unwary buyer. How much is that - about 45 kg? Some manufacturers fit them as standard, some don't.

The analogy of the teeny weeny payloads would be if a civil engineering firm were to design and build a bridge that might collapse if a vehicle tried to cross it. Not fit for purpose.

Basically measuring anything is inaccurate. These days with decent machinery, very close tolerances can be achieved. As I said earlier, when I took my MH to a weighbridge just after I got it it was almost exactly on the expected weight, so they can build them quite accurately. However, don't forget the rider on all publicity, that the design - and hence weight - may change without notice.

However, weighbridges are still inaccurate. Yes they have to be regularly calibrated, but to have a really accurate one would need some serious design and cost implications. It would have to be indoors, as the weight would be wrong if the weighing platform was wet. There would have to be some means of drying tyres before it went on the weighbridge etc etc.

The weighbridge I used was a farmer's one. My van must have weighed at least a couple of kilos more due to the mud underneath my nice new shiny van.

The payload on mine is not huge, but its adequate for the use I am going to put it to, and coming from a caravan where I had just 150kg payload, its not a problem. With the caravan everything was stored in the van not the car, and I kept under the limit...just!

If you want the exact errors allowed on a weighbridge check this page out:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-of-practice-enforcement-weighing-of-vehicles

As always, its not always that simple:

If a single plate weighbridge has been used to weigh individual axles or bogies or to add up those results to produce the gross/train weight of a vehicle, the accuracy limit is +/- 50 kgs per axle or as specified for that weighbridge by a Inspector of Weights and Measures.

The above quote is from that document. Note the last bit, "or as specified for that weighbridge by a Inspector of Weights and Measures." Hmmm!

Either way it looks like we are allowed at least 100kg leeway on the weight, maybe more.

 

[Lenny HB]

Carthago @ 3.5T:

1. Chic C-Line I 4.8LE: 265kg.

2. Chic C-Line I 4.9LE: 245kg.

3. Chic C-Line T 4.8LE: 390kg.

4. C-Tourer I 150QB Lightweight: 395kg.

5. C-Tourer I 49 LE Lighyweight: 395kg.

Notes:

a. The options list is so extensive that you should plan on removing between 150kg to 250kg from the above quoted figures.
b. All models based on basic engine and manual gearbox option.
c. The rest of the Carthago range sees to be very payload friendly.

Also people I know with Carthago's have found them to be around 130kg over the design weight.

 

[gus-lopez]

the standard 90 Lt is small enough I still wish I'd gone for the optional 120 Lt.

I remember about 8 or 9 years ago looking at a decent self build for sale on the bay which was on a Mercedes 608D chassis. What attracted me was the 1000l diesel tank I remember thinking I could get to North devon & back twice without refilling

 

[thebriars]

Are manufacturers of small aircraft as imprecise, where weights and payloads are concerned?

Many years ago I went on a chartered jumbo jet with just 20 passengers on board. None of us carried any luggage, that went separately on another flight. The air hostess had a load chart for us and we had to sit in designated seats up and down the aircraft to balance it for take-off and landing.

 

[Lenny HB]

Its nothing to do with the way they are made but inaccuracies in weighing equipment. Public weighbridges are only accurate to about 5%. Its the same reason why they generally allow 5-10% error on speedo readings if you are caught over the limit.

I mentioned the tolerances in a post eairler.
Plate weighbridge +/-100 kg
Dynamic +/-150 per axle.

Although with modern strain gauges they tend to be fairly accurate however they are checked at 17-18 ton.

A couple days ago I drove over our local weighbridge to check it was working for another Funster. Wouldn't even register a car weighing 1½t, Fail on front axle, error on rear..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[thebriars]

I remember about 8 or 9 years ago looking at a decent self build for sale on the bay which was on a Mercedes 608D chassis. What attracted me was the 1000l diesel tank I remember thinking I could get to North devon & back twice without refilling

Now that would be a big diesel tank, good enough for 6500 miles! Just might have fun trying to use a credit card with a £99 limit! I assume you mean 100l.

Mine has a 65l tank, good for 400+ miles. Would have likes a slightly larger tank, but hey ho!

 

[Gill and Peter]

Any other product I believe you could challenge the supplier as in my opinion they are not fit for purpose. We had to up rate our two berth Auto-trail Imala 730S with assisted air suspension or Gill would have had to stay at Home.
Pete

 

[Pausim]

Whilst discussing the payload of a German motorhome with a dealer he admitted that keeping within the payload limits needed some care. He then added that some makes were barely legal as they sat empty on the forecourt, nodding pointedly in the direction of a display of a popular British manufacturer.

 

[nicholsong]

Any other product I believe you could challenge the supplier as in my opinion they are not fit for purpose. We had to up rate our two berth Auto-trail Imala 730S with assisted air suspension or Gill would have had to stay at Home.
Pete

I think fit-for-purpose still applies, and sellers cannot have contractual clauses which purport to restrict Sale of Goods legislation rights which are null and void.

Geoff

 

[Pausim]

I think the 5% tolerance originates with Type Approval and Certificates of Conformity. Manufacturers are, I believe, allowed a 5% tolerance which works its way down the line into catalogues and contracts. I would not want to be the one who took on the European motor industry on this point, I suspect they can afford better lawyers than I can.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[john lillie]

recently bought (and sold) a Hymer C544SL on a 57 plate, fitted towbar , small solar panel and satellite dish, weight with 50% water and fuel was 3440kg , no driver!, max 3500kg!

 

[gus-lopez]

A couple days ago I drove over our local weighbridge to check it was working for another Funster. Wouldn't even register a car weighing 1½t, Fail on front axle, error on rear..

Can you not report it? It shouldn't be in use . Plate bridges used to be able toweigh 25kgs

Just might have fun trying to use a credit card with a £99 limit! I assume you mean 100l.

No it was 1000L , approx, 220 gallons. Seller said 25 mpg was his average. So I thought North Devon & back twice from here in spain was doable.

 

[Lenny HB]

Can you not report it? It shouldn't be in use . Plate bridges used to be able toweigh 25kgs

It's dynamic one & it's checked regularly.

 

[busby]

recently bought (and sold) a Hymer C544SL on a 57 plate, fitted towbar , small solar panel and satellite dish, weight with 50% water and fuel was 3440kg , no driver!, max 3500kg!

Or passenger,,Makes you wonder how many are legal,,BUSBY

 

[thebriars]

Can you not report it? It shouldn't be in use . Plate bridges used to be able toweigh 25kgs


No it was 1000L , approx, 220 gallons. Seller said 25 mpg was his average. So I thought North Devon & back twice from here in spain was doable.

Must have been a huge motorhome, and running on magic to achieve that mpg. The weight of diesel alone is near a tonne, plus the tank weight. This is a 1000 litre tank:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Thedriver]

Don't assume that the heavy boys are ok, twin rear wheel ? Mine is a old 2006 sprinter Carthago M Liner. 6 Ton chassis. I bought it in Germany 4 1/2 yrs ago, It had a l lot of factory fitted options fitted, Ducted air con (big a/c unit in garage, 350ltr fresh water, 250ltr waste water, 245ltrs diesel,(2 tanks, 165lts under cab, 85ltrs ally tank under chassis,5.5mtr awning etc. I weighed it a month ago with most of the running gear in it, kitchen equipment ,clothes,+ all the usual stuff I carry around with me including Leccy Bikes.
With £50 diesel, M/T water tanks it weighed 5700kg. MMMMM!!. So I had just fitted a 60ltr gas tank, that was full after leak testing, but I still had 1 full+1 1/2 and full gas bottles. So I lost them, took out the big a/c unit (That was coming to the end of it's life) and few other heavy things but that only saved about 100kgs,but I now had 400kgs,then had it upgraded to 6.4t ( no mods to the van, only paper exercise) but now I have a usable 800kgs.
I don't run with full tanks most of time
, usually Half tank if water but if I intend to stay somewhere I fill it up and watch the same people go past me all the time with watering cans for a week!!. Diesel tanks get filled eg. leaving Spain and coming into france. It is a very convenient combination.
I always thought I had a big payload over the years with the heavy chassis vans, but as my wise old dad used to say NEVER ASSUME!!

 

[rosalan]

Adria Matrix Supreme 687 SBC 606kg but only 150kg in its huge garage.

 

[Blue Knight]

Hymer Motorhomes:

B-Class CL Ambition @ 3.5T:

1. 598: (4/4) 333kg.

2. 678: (3 or 4/5-belts and 3 or 4/5-berth): 308kg.

3. 698: (belts/berths as per ser-2): 288kg.

Notes:

a. These are the worst of the Hymer range at 3.5T but once the accessories list is added then expect a zero payload.

b. Other Hymer vans, incl one or two from the Exis range have c.600kg of available payload but once 4-passengers/berths, water and the options list is added then they become fairly useless at 3.5T.

b. Hymer seems to be the market leader for keeping the MIRO figures low on a 3.5T van but purchasers should be mindful of the options list and the number of required berths etc.

d. All payloads are calculated using a 20-liter travel allowance.

 

[Blue Knight]

Elddis Motorhomes @ 3.5T:

1. Autoquest 196 (6-berth): 568kg. (418kg).

2. Encore 255 (4-berth): 482kg (342kg).

3. Encore 254 (4): 460kg (320kg).

4. Encore 285 (4): 470kg (330kg).

Notes:

a. All vans are standard factory units and the first quoted payloads do not relate to the dealer specials such as the Marquis Majestic or Brownhills Editions.

b. All payloads are calculated with empty tanks.

c. 'Dealer special' payloads (in brackets) will add 16" alloys (over 15" steel), spare wheel and carrier, reverse camera, solar, DAB radio, full awning and extra interior furnishings and equipment, circa 140kg total.

 

[WESTY66]

Elddis Motorhomes @ 3.5T:

1. Autoquest 196 (6-berth): 568kg. (418kg).

2. Encore 255 (4-berth): 482kg (342kg).

3. Encore 254 (4): 460kg (320kg).

4. Encore 285 (4): 470kg (330kg).

Notes:

a. All vans are standard factory units and the first quoted payloads do not relate to the dealer specials such as the Marquis Majestic or Brownhills Editions.

b. All payloads are calculated with empty tanks.

c. 'Dealer special' payloads (in brackets) will add 16" alloys (over 15" steel), spare wheel and carrier, reverse camera, solar, DAB radio, full awning and extra interior furnishings and equipment, circa 140kg total.

The standard 255 (NOT dealer special)has spare wheel fitted as standard, DAB as standard, solar PREP as standard, solar panel, awning as you say are extra I believe, I know this, I have one....

Me 102kg
Full fresh tank
Full diesel tank
2x6 gas 1 calorlite,1 calor, gas level unknown
100w solar panel
4m fiamma awning
Living stuff such as pots, pans and cutlery and spare shoes, boots and 2 coats, bedding for 2 double beds and a TV comes to...3280kg
I know this cos I’ve weighed it on the weighbrige at work. I can’t remember the axle weights.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}