Is lithium now cheaper than LA?

[jongood]

Do these work with built in trickle charge to the engine battery, and forget the charger as all power from solar panels on the roof on the Motorhome through regulators.

Apologies I'm not sure I'm totally understanding the question but some solar regulators do also have a trickle charge to the engine battery so in theory you could stand for a long time as long as you had some sun.

 

[JockandRita]

My concern wouldn't necessarily be living in that temperature, but driving in it. Initially it might be too cold for charging from the B2B...

But even driving in those temperatures, you would surely have some form of heating, be it hab heating via gas and a crash regulator, or via a heat exchanger from the engine, or certainly cab heating. I am referring (as I did above), to internally stored batteries. Externally in a non heated and non insulated side locker, would require alternative thinking.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[barryd]

Just posting to follow this thread with interest although most of it is over my head.

I'm hoping to get quotes today from VanBitz and Off-grid power solutions. I have a new to me 2015 Swift Esprit 496 and we are currently on a four month UK tour and really struggling with a failing single 110ah lead acid battery and 120w panel.

The Swift uses the Sergent system and I would love to hear from someone who has done the transfer to lithium with similar set up. I'll be guided by the experts but I gather it's certainly not a case of drop in with this system.

 

[growly_bear]

But even driving in those temperatures, you would surely have some form of heating, be it hab heating via gas and a crash regulator, or via a heat exchanger from the engine, or certainly cab heating. I am referring (as I did above), to internally stored batteries. Externally in a non heated and non insulated side locker, would require alternative thinking.

Cheers,

Jock.

Hi Jock, yes in sure we will! I've no idea how long it would take a child battery to warn up though to enable it to accept charge. Mine will be fitted internally next to my seat. I've bought a bms with heater capability. I'll pay what I find this winter. I use mine as a daily to, so will be interesting what temperatures it goes down to overnight.

 

[Fazerstorm]

Just posting to follow this thread with interest although most of it is over my head.

I'm hoping to get quotes today from VanBitz and Off-grid power solutions. I have a new to me 2015 Swift Esprit 496 and we are currently on a four month UK tour and really struggling with a failing single 110ah lead acid battery and 120w panel.

The Swift uses the Sergent system and I would love to hear from someone who has done the transfer to lithium with similar set up. I'll be guided by the experts but I gather it's certainly not a case of drop in with this system.

I installed a 120ah high output KS battery about 18months ago. We have the ec400 sargent system, along with the px300 mains charger in our autocruise carrera four. I also have a 200w solar panel connected to the ks battery directly, with the original 50w panel connected to the ec400.
The ks battery was sold as drop in, which it has been! It has worked perfectly, except for the accuracy of the bluetooth app, which appears to be a common issue with all lithium batteries. I fitted a renogy shunt, which is great, and an essential extra.
I also fitted a renogy 2000w inverter, and a victron 30a dc to dc charger. We use the factory fitted 800w microwave, which runs at 120 amps.
The whole setup has worked fine, with two 6 week trips around Spain, without hook up.
It has also worked okay when using hook up around the UK.
I have now fitted a relay in the system, to isolate the split charge relay, as suggested by another member, although I had no issues at all with it working in parallel with the dc to dc charger.(See diagram). It now charges at 30 amps, as opposed to 35 with both connected. There seem to be an awful lot of armchair experts regarding charging lithium, I am not sure that most of it is anything more than scaremongering!
I also wonder why people are worried about the BMS controlling the battery. Is it not like saying that we shouldn't rely on a thermostat to control the temperature of the van coolant?

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[barryd]

I installed a 120ah high output KS battery about 18months ago. We have the ec400 sargent system, along with the px300 mains charger in our autocruise carrera four. I also have a 200w solar panel connected to the ks battery directly, with the original 50w panel connected to the ec400.
The ks battery was sold as drop in, which it has been! It has worked perfectly, except for the accuracy of the bluetooth app, which appears to be a common issue with all lithium batteries. I fitted a renogy shunt, which is great, and an essential extra.
I also fitted a renogy 2000w inverter, and a victron 30a dc to dc charger. We use the factory fitted 800w microwave, which runs at 120 amps.
The whole setup has worked fine, with two 6 week trips around Spain, without hook up.
It has also worked okay when using hook up around the UK.
I have now fitted a relay in the system, to isolate the split charge relay, as suggested by another member, although I had no issues at all with it working in parallel with the dc to dc charger.(See diagram). It now charges at 30 amps, as opposed to 35 with both connected. There seem to be an awful lot of armchair experts regarding charging lithium, I am not sure that most of it is anything more than scaremongering!
I also wonder why people are worried about the BMS controlling the battery. Is it not like saying that we shouldn't rely on a thermostat to control the temperature of the van coolant?



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That's really helpful thanks. I won't be doing it myself but it's good to know it's all worked with the Sargent system. It will useful when getting quotes from VanBitz etc as I'll need to make sure they add in these extras. It's a rapid learning curve for me and doing it on the fly (away) on tour is going to be interesting.

 

[Garveypeter]

In terms of useable Ah, quite possibly LiFePo4.

An example from my current conversion - the moho (Adria Compact) has 2 NDS 100Ah AGM batteries that I can discharge to approx 50% making an effective capacity across the 2 of 100Ah. These particular batteries (which are standard fit on Adria's and possibly other vehicles and are sized so 2 can fit under a Ducato seat base) are... £300 each to replace!

So 2 x 100AH AGM batteries gives me 100Ah useable for £600

I am replacing these (barely used, only 6 months from production date label if anyone wants them) with 2 Fogstar Drift Pro 12v 300Ah batteries which in theory retail for £1149 each, but they are reduced to £949 and then I took advantage of the MF 10% discount as a subscriber to get the final cost down to £1,710 for 600Ah of capacity.

LiFePo4 can be discharged to zero if you are brave, but taking a more conservative 80% maximum means these 600Ah can give me 480Ah for £1,710.

So to the comparison:
AGM - 100Ah useable at £600 gives £6 per useable Ah
LiFePo4 - 480Ah useable at £1,710 gives £3.57 per useable Ah

Can you get cheaper AGM/LiFePo4? almost certainly - I am simply comparing the factory fit with my replacement, and that would likely sway the numbers. I assume (hope!) fogstar is a reasonable brand - especially as MF has a discount arrangement with them.

Being a recent moho, the current chargers (B2B, Solar and EHU) all have a Li setting so in theory I could just install them, but the whole point of this exercise was to fit an inverter for sustained off grid use which makes the exercise... somewhat more expensive.

I don’t know about your pricing model. Halfords leisure batteries are rebranded Yuasa and top of the line. I’ve fitted many of the HLB700 Yuasa batteries and they’re €144. These batteries along with the new Varta/Bosch have patented phosphor bronze plate design and are a major step forward in lead acid battery design. They can replace standard AGM batteries, no charger change/upgrade and the service life is excellent.

 

[Tigger-Tim]

I don’t know about your pricing model. Halfords leisure batteries are rebranded Yuasa and top of the line. I’ve fitted many of the HLB700 Yuasa batteries and they’re €144. These batteries along with the new Varta/Bosch have patented phosphor bronze plate design and are a major step forward in lead acid battery design. They can replace standard AGM batteries, no charger change/upgrade and the service life is excellent.



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These are £210 in the UK at the moment. Even with my trade card they are £189.

Lead Acid has been rising in price, whilst Lithium has been falling.

We're pretty much at the intersection point now.

 

[The joker]

These are £210 in the UK at the moment. Even with my trade card they are £189.

Lead Acid has been rising in price, whilst Lithium has been falling.

We're pretty much at the intersection point now.

Just under £143 delivered with four year warranty, looks the same https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/yuasa/l36-efb/ If you were looking at that type of battery????

 

[Ditcha]

That's a bit fishy

Don't know what happened there me am sausage fingers

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[Garveypeter]

These are £210 in the UK at the moment. Even with my trade card they are £189.

Lead Acid has been rising in price, whilst Lithium has been falling.

We're pretty much at the intersection point now.

It’s usually we in Ireland who pay a premium for imported goods. It can’t be a Brexit thing as the Yuasa factory in Ebbw Vale, Wales. The pair are under €300/£252

 

[wfdTamar]

You'd be crazy to buy a Yuasa EFB at £143 that does 200 cycles at 50% when you could buy a 110Ah lead carbon gel for £189 that will do 750 cycles at 80% (as long as you have a Gel setting on your chargers which almost any will have). 1500 cycles at 50%. That's 50 usable AH compared to 88.

Lithium is an even better buy IF you already have the chargers for it. It's a bigger investment if you need to change chargers. I've never heard anyone regret going lithium.