Is lithium now cheaper than LA? (2 Viewers)

[Tony50]

I know nothing about Lithium batteries, but £180 odd seems to good to be true, I know my Lithium is an over kill at £1500 plus, As Roadpro owner said it was a overkill, but, I understand it is top of the range quality and being stuck under my Wife's seat I feel quite relaxed !!

 

[Northernraider]

I’ve found an even cheaper one!

https://amzn.eu/d/0cQGeJzV

Haddock!!

Hmm there's something fishy about that

 

[1967bowesj]

Haddock!!

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Hmm there's something fishy about that

See your VPN is working or are in Islington lol

 

[Just smiffy]

I think if your investing in lithium you should go for enough upgrades to not rely on EHU…..

 

[jongood]

I think if your investing in lithium you should go for enough upgrades to not rely on EHU…..

Since I upped the solar and went hybrid LiFePo4/gel, I leave the mains charger unplugged it isn't required, maybe different if we did more in UK winter? who knows?

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[jongood]

Heat a tank of water with your excess sun, that is what we do with our excess solar on our van.

Ive been thinking of doing this, are you heating your own boiler via inverter or separate tank with an immersion heater?

 

[Northernraider]

See your VPN is working or are in Islington lol

Since I upped the solar and went hybrid LiFePo4/gel, I leave the mains charger unplugged it isn't required, maybe different if we did more in UK winter? who knows?

Same here. I only have 240v charger fitted as an emergency backup.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I understand it is top of the range quality and being stuck under my Wife's seat I feel quite relaxed !!

Is that because it’s not under your seat

 

[Silver-Fox]

No heating. No bluetooth.

Tigger-Tim

Thankyou that would make sense.

Is it worth paying extra for heating and blue tooth I wonder??

 

[carolyn]

My brain is now exploding from reading all these lithium threads in preparation for collecting our new van in less than 2 weeks. I also tried to look at Harvey’s only fans page but they wanted me to pay. I didn’t fancy that. Instead I’ve bought a Multimeter with the money I saved as people keep talking about them. Now what to do with it? …..

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[Two on Tour]

Ive been thinking of doing this, are you heating your own boiler via inverter or separate tank with an immersion heater?

I know that you are not a fan of Chinese gear, but I bought a cheaper 240v Chinese 8Ltr water heater, replaced the 240 element with a 300 watt 12v element wired via a digitally controlled thermostat and switch to the load output on our Victron MPPT solar controllers.
The Chinese water heater was ideal as it has a 1/2" BPS inlet water inlet and outlet, a pressure release valve, over temperature cutout and a ready make case with insulation.
I plumbed in the new extra hot water tank via a 12v three-way motorised valve to switch between the existing and new hot water tanks.
If our lithium battery is topped up enough, then we can heat the extra hot water from the battery if it's a dull day and not a lot of solar.

The 300 watt 12v element I used was made up of 2 x 150 watt elements connected in series. We have 2 x Victron MPPT controllers, so I disconnected the two elements from each other and power the 2 elements independently via each of our solar controllers.

We can also heat the water while driving as we have a Victron XS B2B.

The original 240v element in the water heater was 1800 watts, so you could power it with an inverter if that was an easier route you prefered.

 

[jongood]

I know that you are not a fan of Chinese gear, but I bought a cheaper 240v Chinese 8Ltr water heater, replaced the 240 element with a 300 watt 12v element wired via a digitally controlled thermostat and switch to the load output on our Victron MPPT solar controllers.
The Chinese water heater was ideal as it has a 1/2" BPS inlet water inlet and outlet, a pressure release valve, over temperature cutout and a ready make case with insulation.
I plumbed in the new extra hot water tank via a 12v three-way motorised valve to switch between the existing and new hot water tanks.
If our lithium battery is topped up enough, then we can heat the extra hot water from the battery if it's a dull day and not a lot of solar.

The 300 watt 12v element I used was made up of 2 x 150 watt elements connected in series. We have 2 x Victron MPPT controllers, so I disconnected the two elements from each other and power the 2 elements independently via each of our solar controllers.

We can also heat the water while driving as we have a Victron XS B2B.

The original 240v element in the water heater was 1800 watts, so you could power it with an inverter if that was an easier route you prefered.

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Thanks, that looks good. Sadly, I'm finding myself increasingly forced to buy chinese products due to the lack of alternatives.

 

[autorouter]

The 300 watt 12v element I used was made up of 2 x 150 watt elements connected in series. We have 2 x Victron MPPT controllers, so I disconnected the two elements from each other and power the 2 elements independently via each of our solar controllers.

In parallel, surely, not series?

 

[Just smiffy]

My brain is now exploding from reading all these lithium threads in preparation for collecting our new van in less than 2 weeks. I also tried to look at Harvey’s only fans page but they wanted me to pay. I didn’t fancy that. Instead I’ve bought a Multimeter with the money I saved as people keep talking about them. Now what to do with it? …..

It’s got two probes on it Carolyn, being a doctor I’m sure you know what to do…

 

[autorouter]

Instead I’ve bought a Multimeter with the money I saved as people keep talking about them. Now what to do with it? …..

Post 13 of this thread might be useful

Help with EBL please

Hi guys I had a solar panel and MPPT controller added by dealer (was free) before I picked up a new van. Today I had a look at the EBL and noted block 6 is empty and there is a plug sitting idle. Anyone know if this should be plugged in? Thanks 😊

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

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[Two on Tour]

In parallel, surely, not series?

Yes, you are correct, I got confused looking at the link bars between the two 150 watt elements.

 

[carolyn]

Post 13 of this thread might be useful

Help with EBL please

Hi guys I had a solar panel and MPPT controller added by dealer (was free) before I picked up a new van. Today I had a look at the EBL and noted block 6 is empty and there is a plug sitting idle. Anyone know if this should be plugged in? Thanks 😊

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

When I first went to medical school there was a series of books with titles like Lecture notes on Anatomy or Phydiology or Pharmacology or Cardiology , you get the picture. We’d all end up with quite a lot, they were known as “Idiots guides” . If that was the idiots guide to a Multimeter then perhaps I’d better ask for a refund!

 

[carolyn]

It’s got two probes on it Carolyn, being a doctor I’m sure you know what to do…

I looked for the 2 paddles but they’re either very small or missing.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I looked for the 2 paddles but they’re either very small or missing.

It’s not a canoe you’ve bought it’s a multimeter

 

[arthur49]

Amazon prime offer here!

100Ah £186

Is this per useable Amp cheaper than decent quality lead acid leisure batteries?

Disclaimer: I've no idea if these are any good but with Amazon, you can return easily if needed!

This guy reviewed one and seemed impressed re value for money

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[wfdTamar]

I bought the DC House one. Looks identical to the EcoWorthy (even has eco in the model number). It has a jbd bms (a ‘name’ brand). The Fogstar eco looks the same too, but it could be that although they come from the same factory the bulk purchaser could specify what goes into them. Now the Amazon deals have finished the Fogstar is the best buy.

Lithium cells have come down maybe half within the past year. Eventually this might flow onto EV prices if it also applies to the better quality cells they use.

 

[flyboyprowler]

Before changing to Lithium, we did a fair bit of research as to why there was a large price differential between various batteries. We were directed to a YouTube video which explained that where all the batteries are produced, in China each individual cell is tested and graded and the most expensive cells given the highest pricing and the B cells being significantly cheaper. Yes, the B cells will perform well but only for a lesser period after which they will lose performance. Take into account that the cells are produced then they are shipped around the world, the cases and electronics have to be bought and the batteries made, further distributed and finally sold. Thus the reason why there is a large price difference. The cheaper batteries have to be made from B cells (or worse) and will not give the performance of batteries made using A cells. That said, are some manufacturers using B cells but charging A cell prices? You pays your money and takes your choice!

 

[Raul]

Before changing to Lithium, we did a fair bit of research as to why there was a large price differential between various batteries. We were directed to a YouTube video which explained that where all the batteries are produced, in China each individual cell is tested and graded and the most expensive cells given the highest pricing and the B cells being significantly cheaper. Yes, the B cells will perform well but only for a lesser period after which they will lose performance. Take into account that the cells are produced then they are shipped around the world, the cases and electronics have to be bought and the batteries made, further distributed and finally sold. Thus the reason why there is a large price difference. The cheaper batteries have to be made from B cells (or worse) and will not give the performance of batteries made using A cells. That said, are some manufacturers using B cells but charging A cell prices? You pays your money and takes your choice!

To add to the confusion of your research, look out for Andy off grid garage, a German based in Australia. That guy did extensive research, testing no bullshit, and contributed to allot of folk that went DIY. The thing is, there is no A or B grade in storage application. Traction yes, as the lower performing cells for traction on EV applications, has no effect whatsoever for storage. I have built some batteries for home storage with B grade cells and are fantastic. I know a guy that tested and returned grade A cells, that tested under quoted capacity, then bough cheaper grade B that tested better that the grade A cells. I do not believe on this grading at all. The tester is king, if it makes the capacity, and delivers a good result, grade B are a better buy. The cost of a battery is influenced by how is constructed, as well based on bms used. Premium bms with extra functions attract a higher price. Basic but functional bms is not necessarily a lesser battery. I have two of these since 2019 when lithium was selling for premium princess. No bells on these two, no BT, no coms, yet they do the job quite nice.

 

[gwyntaxi]

Just a word of warning, replacing LA with lithium is rarely as simple as just swapping them over. There are a multitude of threads that discuss the other changes required.

My thoughts exactly, apparently lithium batteries aren’t just a straight swop, there are other points to consider such as your charging systems, I’ll stick with my LA....

 

[jongood]

Before changing to Lithium, we did a fair bit of research as to why there was a large price differential between various batteries. We were directed to a YouTube video which explained that where all the batteries are produced, in China each individual cell is tested and graded and the most expensive cells given the highest pricing and the B cells being significantly cheaper. Yes, the B cells will perform well but only for a lesser period after which they will lose performance. Take into account that the cells are produced then they are shipped around the world, the cases and electronics have to be bought and the batteries made, further distributed and finally sold. Thus the reason why there is a large price difference. The cheaper batteries have to be made from B cells (or worse) and will not give the performance of batteries made using A cells. That said, are some manufacturers using B cells but charging A cell prices? You pays your money and takes your choice!

Looking at the lastest fogstar blurb

Manufactured using Grade A EVE LiFePO4 Lithium cells, high discharge JBD BMS, built in Bluetooth and Heating as standard - our new Lithium Leisure Battery collection offers everything you’d expect in a premium product.

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[JockandRita]

Looking at the lastest fogstar blurb

Manufactured using Grade A EVE LiFePO4 Lithium cells, high discharge JBD BMS, built in Bluetooth and Heating as standard - our new Lithium Leisure Battery collection offers everything you’d expect in a premium product.

But do you need a Bluetooth BMS Jon, if installing 2 x or more batteries plus installing a Victron Smart Shunt? It would tell you all you would need to know, regardless of how many batteries you installed, (up to x 4).
Also, would you need heat mats if the batteries were stored internally like yours and ours are, ie, there is no way Rita and I would be occupying the MH at zero temperatures, so charging wouldn't be required.

I quite like the look of the Ecoworthy. Series at £219 for each 100Ah, and for the very reasons given above.

Ideally for me as less faffing about, would be the the straight swap Type 019 battery from Ecotree, (x 4), which would be very handy, but not at £375 - £445 for a 100Ah.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Tony50]

I think if your investing in lithium you should go for enough upgrades to not rely on EHU…..

My Lithium was one I paid for on the Auto Sleeper I exchanged , I said to the company , I wanted to keep that and the TV and sat dish ,they were quite pleased as they said they did not want left on the my vehicle as they would have to give a warranty, it turns out a lot of companies remove this stuff because of Warranty

 

[growly_bear]

there is no way Rita and I would be occupying the MH at zero temperatures, so charging wouldn't be required.

My concern wouldn't necessarily be living in that temperature, but driving in it. Initially it might be too cold for charging from the B2B...

 

[The POPs]

Looking at the lastest fogstar blurb

Manufactured using Grade A EVE LiFePO4 Lithium cells, high discharge JBD BMS, built in Bluetooth and Heating as standard - our new Lithium Leisure Battery collection offers everything you’d expect in a premium product.

Do these work with built in trickle charge to the engine battery, and forget the charger as all power from solar panels on the roof on the Motorhome through regulators.

 

[jongood]

But do you need a Bluetooth BMS Jon, if installing 2 x or more batteries plus installing a Victron Smart Shunt? It would tell you all you would need to know, regardless of how many batteries you installed, (up to x 4).
Also, would you need heat mats if the batteries were stored internally like yours and ours are, ie, there is no way Rita and I would be occupying the MH at zero temperatures, so charging wouldn't be required.

I quite like the look of the Ecoworthy. Series at £219 for each 100Ah, and for the very reasons given above.

Ideally for me as less faffing about, would be the the straight swap Type 019 battery from Ecotree, (x 4), which would be very handy, but not at £375 - £445 for a 100Ah.

Cheers,

Jock.

You're correct Jock, I was quoting it because some posters suggested that the LiFePo4 batteries were getting cheaper because the manufacturers were cutting corners on the cell quality.

I can't remember if we've had this discussion but for the past 18 months ish I ve been running with a LiFePo4 in parallel with an original gel utilising the original charging regime. It's working very well in holding up the voltage so I can use my inverter far more than I used to, the only issue has been its slower to charge from my alternator than I would ideally like. Iam now thinking of replacing last gel and ditching the 12v alternator and going 24-12v b2b as this will give me even more capacity and also shed over 50kgs of weight

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