Is lithium now cheaper than LA?

Raul said:
The bms job is NOT to regulate the charge, that’s the chargers job. The bms is the last line of defence, not intended to look after the charging. No ifs no buts.
Any charger with any lead profile with a absorb in excess of 14.4 and excess of two hrs, it will put strain on bms. The bms will go into cell protection over voltage like a yo-yo. Until one day, a tired transistor will pop, then the bms is will not protect the cells, the a cell or more is bound to take overcharge.
The charger profile should be set on the lower edge of the bms safety parameters, it will charge without triggering over-voltage. That’s the normal operating mode for daily cycling. Only very few first cycles may trigger a cell over voltage, that if charger is set high. Within few cycles the battery will balance and work wonderful.
Same goes for alternator charging, skipping a b2b, you are dumping unregulated charge into a lithium.
Each to their own.

As for original tread title, lifepo4 it’s been cheaper than lead for few years now. The way to calculate cost is to take into account total energy round trip for each battery, and cycles. A 100ah quality lead is good for 480 kWh round trip, 800 cycles. A budget lifepo4 100ah is good for bare minimum 2560 kWh round trip, 2000 cycles. A factor of 5.3 times more energy. But lithium can even double that with ease. So how cheap lead has to be to equal lithium? If you pay £400 for a 100ah lithium the lead to be on par it has to be £75 for a 100ah, and lug the weight for the privilege.
If you pay less than £400 for lithium, then the lead has to be even cheaper. The lead is already overpriced, and you receive it with partial sulphation any way.
Last time I bought lead, they were dry and vacuumed, inactivated for shelf life. The importer filled the electrolyte to manufacture recommendation mix 1.28.
I never bought batteries in stock, always something they don’t have so they can order fresh.
Click to expand...

Understand… I was merely stating that no harm will come; using any charger is perfectly okay. Just switch it off when charged, no issue then.
 
JJ said:
I'm a tad upset right at this moment because it appears that my 470 amp-h capacity is fully full, it's only 4.45pm and the sun is still blazing away and is expected to do so for a couple more hours.

Oh well... never mind.


JJ :cool:
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Heat a tank of water with your excess sun, that is what we do with our excess solar on our van. (y)
 
In terms of useable Ah, quite possibly LiFePo4.

An example from my current conversion - the moho (Adria Compact) has 2 NDS 100Ah AGM batteries that I can discharge to approx 50% making an effective capacity across the 2 of 100Ah. These particular batteries (which are standard fit on Adria's and possibly other vehicles and are sized so 2 can fit under a Ducato seat base) are... £300 each to replace!

So 2 x 100AH AGM batteries gives me 100Ah useable for £600 :(

I am replacing these (barely used, only 6 months from production date label if anyone wants them) with 2 Fogstar Drift Pro 12v 300Ah batteries which in theory retail for £1149 each, but they are reduced to £949 and then I took advantage of the MF 10% discount as a subscriber to get the final cost down to £1,710 for 600Ah of capacity.

LiFePo4 can be discharged to zero if you are brave, but taking a more conservative 80% maximum means these 600Ah can give me 480Ah for £1,710.

So to the comparison:
AGM - 100Ah useable at £600 gives £6 per useable Ah
LiFePo4 - 480Ah useable at £1,710 gives £3.57 per useable Ah

Can you get cheaper AGM/LiFePo4? almost certainly - I am simply comparing the factory fit with my replacement, and that would likely sway the numbers. I assume (hope!) fogstar is a reasonable brand - especially as MF has a discount arrangement with them.

Being a recent moho, the current chargers (B2B, Solar and EHU) all have a Li setting so in theory I could just install them, but the whole point of this exercise was to fit an inverter for sustained off grid use which makes the exercise... somewhat more expensive.
 
Carpmart said:
Understand… I was merely stating that no harm will come; using any charger is perfectly okay. Just switch it off when charged, no issue then.
Click to expand...
You didn't say that in your post, your encouraging readers to take chances with very expensive motorhomes with uneducated posts, unless you know what you're posting about you're better to keep silent. You may not belive this but there is liability even on the tinternet....
 
Raul said:
The bms job is NOT to regulate the charge, that’s the chargers job. The bms is the last line of defence, not intended to look after the charging. No ifs no buts.
Any charger with any lead profile with a absorb in excess of 14.4 and excess of two hrs, it will put strain on bms. The bms will go into cell protection over voltage like a yo-yo. Until one day, a tired transistor will pop, then the bms is will not protect the cells, the a cell or more is bound to take overcharge.
The charger profile should be set on the lower edge of the bms safety parameters, it will charge without triggering over-voltage. That’s the normal operating mode for daily cycling. Only very few first cycles may trigger a cell over voltage, that if charger is set high. Within few cycles the battery will balance and work wonderful.
Same goes for alternator charging, skipping a b2b, you are dumping unregulated charge into a lithium.
Each to their own.

As for original tread title, lifepo4 it’s been cheaper than lead for few years now. The way to calculate cost is to take into account total energy round trip for each battery, and cycles. A 100ah quality lead is good for 480 kWh round trip, 800 cycles. A budget lifepo4 100ah is good for bare minimum 2560 kWh round trip, 2000 cycles. A factor of 5.3 times more energy. But lithium can even double that with ease. So how cheap lead has to be to equal lithium? If you pay £400 for a 100ah lithium the lead to be on par it has to be £75 for a 100ah, and lug the weight for the privilege.
If you pay less than £400 for lithium, then the lead has to be even cheaper. The lead is already overpriced, and you receive it with partial sulphation any way.
Last time I bought lead, they were dry and vacuumed, inactivated for shelf life. The importer filled the electrolyte to manufacture recommendation mix 1.28.
I never bought batteries in stock, always something they don’t have so they can order fresh.
Click to expand...
Your price equivalent calculator only applies if you're keeping the batteries to the end of their life. I suspect the vast majority are sold with the MH well before then. I would though pay a premium for something more convenient in terms of charging speed, holding charge when sitting, weight etc etc like lithium
 
tinkertaylor said:
You didn't say that in your post, your encouraging readers to take chances with very expensive motorhomes with uneducated posts, unless you know what you're posting about you're better to keep silent. You may not belive this but there is liability even on the tinternet....
Click to expand...

Wow! Sorry for being uneducated and taking chances with peoples valuable motorhomes!

Thank you for pointing out that I’m wrong, you’re clearly much more cleaver than I,
so I shall sit in a corner, with a dunces hat on and flail myself repeatedly as penance! ☹️

So I may learn from my mistakes, please take the time to explain what I got wrong and how I am ‘risking’ all these valuable motorhomes? The forum clearly needs your superior wisdom and guidance; something I’m so clearly lacking in helping with! 😉

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tinkertaylor said:
You didn't say that in your post, your encouraging readers to take chances with very expensive motorhomes with uneducated posts, unless you know what you're posting about you're better to keep silent. You may not belive this but there is liability even on the tinternet....
Click to expand...
That's a bit harsh! :(
It is up to individuals to do proper research, rather than accepting the advice of just one poster. That way they would come to learn if it was indeed common advice/practice, or perhaps with a factoring difference.

It is my view that the OP's advice/information has been given in good faith. I too will not be changing the CBE charger, if/when I go down the LiFeP04 route, but I know other onboard installations are capable of giving the premium charge needed.

Regards,

Jock.
 
I know at least one dealer who doesn't change the CBE 516-3 charger. They reckon that a mixed system of solar (set to lithium), B2b (set to lithium) and CBE (set to gel) works fine.

I agree that in theory the CBE could enter desulfation mode, but I wonder if that would ever happen in practice.
 
I have this charger and seems although optimised for AGM/LA the max charge rating of 14.4 would charge lithium as a direct replacement, I also have a 400w Victron solar set up connected along side so if not completely ideal could simply isolate mains charger and set solar charger to lithium profile, am I wrong with this assumption 🧐



IMG_8892.jpeg

IMG_8893.jpeg
 
garysavannah said:
I have this charger and seems although optimised for AGM/LA the max charge rating of 14.4 would charge lithium as a direct replacement, I also have a 400w Victron solar set up connected along side so if not completely ideal could simply isolate mains charger and set solar charger to lithium profile, am I wrong with this assumption 🧐



View attachment 924116

View attachment 924117
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No that works. I do have a lithium 3 stage charger as an extra, but rarely plug it in, I leave the cbe to do its thing (rarely) as I have plenty solar and b2b . Probably knocks 2 cycles off the battery over it's lifetimes of 3000 .... :LOL:
 
Tombola said:
No that works. I do have a lithium 3 stage charger as an extra, but rarely plug it in, I leave the cbe to do its thing (rarely) as I have plenty solar and b2b . Probably knocks 2 cycles off the battery over it's lifetimes of 3000 .... :LOL:
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Agree if this charger can’t charge over 14.4 which is its max output at 20amps seems pretty suited for charging lithium, but I’m not an auto electrician, this post was handy as I wanted to change to lithium soon on this assumption.

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Carpmart said:
Amazon prime offer here!

100Ah £186

Is this per useable Amp cheaper than decent quality lead acid leisure batteries?

Disclaimer: I've no idea if these are any good but with Amazon, you can return easily if needed!
Click to expand...
Right pig returning to Amazon I found
 
PlacidoD said:
I am not a mind reader. How do I know you have a charger which can be set to gel? (My post says "You will almost certainly need a new charger." given that I do not know that information.) I am sure I would need one to get decent performance out of LiFePO4 on my van. It is cheaper for me to install a 2nd leisure battery for less than £100 rather than replacing charger and existing leisure battery.

You obviously have more experience of motor-homing than me now I have looked but that does not tell me that you know one end of a 12v system from the other. There are lots of people on this Forum that do not even know the whereabouts of their 12V fuse box!!

Chris
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I still on acid batteries but some “knowledgeable Campsite Experts” tell me the charger is three way and can change on a computer over for lithium. Does anyone have knowledge about this?
 
The POPs said:
I still on acid batteries but some “knowledgeable Campsite Experts” tell me the charger is three way and can change on a computer over for lithium. Does anyone have knowledge about this?
Click to expand...
What make and model.of charger

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Good article here for anyone that has questions regards lithium charging

www.fogstar.co.uk

How to Charge a LiFePO4 Leisure Battery: The Ultimate Guide

Whether you're a seasoned explorer or new to LiFePO4 leisure batteries, in this blog you'll find plenty of valuable tips and tricks to keep your battery running smoothly, so you can enjoy your journey without any power hiccups.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
 
Tigger-Tim said:
I'd rather pay a little more and get the economy Fogstar battery. I believe we even have an MHF discount available.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Drift ECO 100Ah 12V Leisure Battery

The Fogstar Drift ECO is your gateway to reliable, budget-friendly off-grid power. With a superb 100Ah capacity and 1250Wh of usable energy, the Drift ECO is perfect for powering everything from leisure applications like camping and caravanning to professional use cases like solar energy storage.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
Click to expand...

Out of interest what’s the difference between economy and normal?
 
Tombola said:
Good article here for anyone that has questions regards lithium charging

www.fogstar.co.uk

How to Charge a LiFePO4 Leisure Battery: The Ultimate Guide

Whether you're a seasoned explorer or new to LiFePO4 leisure batteries, in this blog you'll find plenty of valuable tips and tricks to keep your battery running smoothly, so you can enjoy your journey without any power hiccups.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
Click to expand...
That’s a good read 👍 and very helpful 👌

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Silver-Fox said:
Out of interest what’s the difference between economy and normal?
Click to expand...
That Fogstar Economy 100 Ah LiFePo4 battery looks identical to the EcoWorthy and Renogy Core batteries of the same capacity. Are they all made in the same Chinese factory?
 
Carpmart said:
Amazon prime offer here!

100Ah £186

Is this per useable Amp cheaper than decent quality lead acid leisure batteries?

Disclaimer: I've no idea if these are any good but with Amazon, you can return easily if needed!
Click to expand...
Found this on the reviews on amazon

Review on Amazon: Excellent battery and great service https://amzn.eu/d/0cRMGAt6
 
Just a possible minor point on the “drop in replacement“ strand here. Some vans designed for lead acid have the mains charger come on automatically when EHU is connected and I believe they may continue to trickle when the battery is “full”. So, possibly, you’d be 100% reliant on the lithium BMS to prevent overcharging unless you fitted an “off” switch. Maybe, the same applies to a non-lithium solar controller on a very sunny day?
 
pat100 said:
Just a possible minor point on the “drop in replacement“ strand here. Some vans designed for lead acid have the mains charger come on automatically when EHU is connected and I believe they may continue to trickle when the battery is “full”. So, possibly, you’d be 100% reliant on the lithium BMS to prevent overcharging unless you fitted an “off” switch. Maybe, the same applies to a non-lithium solar controller on a very sunny day?
Click to expand...

Just fit an inline switch and all sorted! ✔️

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