Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

[glenn2926]

Gromett, Torque is not proportional to how far the pedal is pushed down

I guess I was trying to explain EV's are really not that simplistic, most modern throttle peddles even on ICE cars are no longer connected directly but via a potentiometer that indicates to the engine management system that more power is desired, the management system decides whether you can have it or not as the case may be. Also consider on a old fashioned car where the throttle cable is directly connected with my foot flat on the floor at 2,000 rpm I will not be getting full power. So what I am saying an EV may have the potential to provide maximum power or torque however in many instances this will not be provided as optimal conditions will not have been met according to all sensors (one of which is the potentiometer), wet or icy roads etc or sensing wheel speed (Spin etc) .

Therefore the maximum Torque is not just proportional to how far the peddle is pushed down, but to a verity of conditions provided by the management system..

tonyidle was spot on in terms of an electric motor can provide max torque, but not when a vehicle management system is involved to manage the power delivery for safety and performance reasons.

Even my VW transporter will limit power to the driven wheels if I start to loose traction no matter if my foot is flat on the floor.

I really am not trying to be obtuse

It seems my posts are upsetting you and I do not wish to do this

I not sure how much off road driving Gromett has done but the question re a gearbox wasn’t particularly for max torque. In fact it was almost the opposite. We use low gears for control whilst descending hills. This isn’t available without a gearbox.

 

[Coolcats]

I not sure how much off road driving Gromett has done but the question re a gearbox wasn’t particularly for max torque. In fact it was almost the opposite. We use low gears for control whilst descending hills. This isn’t available without a gearbox.

Interesting thought, I haven't done much off road driving but understand its a real skill.

I know that the balance between throttle and gears on track is a fine one, miss a gear or select a 'wrong gear' its the difference between being quick and ending up in the kitty litter. I would love to see how F1 drivers would get on without most of the electronic wizardry embedded in those cars, a Manual gear box would be a good start and the removal of launch control systems (the cars seem pretty edgy even with it and wonder what they would be like without) This is another example of where the potential of max torque and power is limited by engine management systems and it doesn't matter even if the throttle is wide open. Power management applies to road cars ICE and EV's.

I thought the Lotus Video would help to explain the use of how it is managed in an EV, Many Ice cars have (and my transporter), has an S mode which changes the characteristics of performance and in some cases handling.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I not sure how much off road driving Gromett has done but the question re a gearbox wasn’t particularly for max torque. In fact it was almost the opposite. We use low gears for control whilst descending hills. This isn’t available without a gearbox.

The KERS energy recovery gubbins provides braking when you are driving down a steep hill. On my HEV with its one speed gearbox you move the gear selector from D to B. The braking effect is quite strong so in fact to keep up with traffic I need to apply some throttle and speed up. That's on a 12% downward slope.

The bonus is the electric motor is putting charge back into the battery as you go down the hill so that is available to save petrol. Clever stuff.

 

[Gromett]

I not sure how much off road driving Gromett has done but the question re a gearbox wasn’t particularly for max torque. In fact it was almost the opposite. We use low gears for control whilst descending hills. This isn’t available without a gearbox.

Turn on max regen and you can do that sort of stuff with an electric vehicle using one pedal.

 

[glenn2926]

Turn on max regen and you can do that sort of stuff with an electric vehicle using one pedal.

Not on a £6000 pickup you can’t .

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[Gromett]

Skip the sponsored bit. Covers why the Hydrogen car bombed even in California where it was heavily subsidised.

 

[Coolcats]

Skip the sponsored bit. Covers why the Hydrogen car bombed even in California where it was heavily subsidised.

Battery cars once failed along with the Sinclair C5 now look at battery bikes you can’t sell them quick enough Gromett, no is not forever

 

[Coolcats]

Skip the sponsored bit. Covers why the Hydrogen car bombed even in California where it was heavily subsidised.

And the world continues to invest in Hydrogen technology development which is a positive thing

 

[NoName]

I, for one, have never heard of Stellentis.

And after googling I now know why..... At best they've been operational as a single company for 3 months

What a little ray of sunshine.
Wonder what would have happened to Electric vehicles if we had taken the same attitude?

 

[NoName]

I, for one, have never heard of Stellentis.

And after googling I now know why..... At best they've been operational as a single company for 3 months

Stellentis are a massive company with 400,000 employees formed from the American-Fiat group and French Peugeot Citroen group. All the original companies have long pedigrees of automobile involvement.
The fact that you haven’t heard of them, is more an indication of your lack of keeping up with what is happening in the industry than it’s recent merger to form a super group dedicated to advancing technology.
Horse and cart - combustion engine- electric powered - hydrogen , any clues there?

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[Gromett]

Another win for battery over Hydrogen where you would suspect hydrogen would be a natural contender.

Lisbon Orders 10 Electric Ferries - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! Electric ferries have been available for years, but you don’t have see large orders for them (or any orders for them). Lisbon is shaking things up, though. It will be getting 10 electric ferries, ...

cleantechnica.com

 

[Gromett]

And California approves $44M investment in battery charger stations. This will fund 2,000 charge points. That equates to $22,000 per charge station.

That same $44M would give at best 22 hydrogen fill points. The lead that batteries have is increasing rapidly and there will come a point where even in the USA a huge country it will become a no brainer for batteries over hydrogen.

California Approves $44 Million for San Diego EV Charging - CleanTechnica

California Approves $44M for San Diego EV Charging

cleantechnica.com

 

[NoName]

Another win for battery over Hydrogen where you would suspect hydrogen would be a natural contender.

Lisbon Orders 10 Electric Ferries - CleanTechnica

Sign up for daily news updates from CleanTechnica on email. Or follow us on Google News! Electric ferries have been available for years, but you don’t have see large orders for them (or any orders for them). Lisbon is shaking things up, though. It will be getting 10 electric ferries, ...

cleantechnica.com

Not really as they are accepting evolving technology which is currently ahead of hydrogen. As combustion engines gradually took over from the horse and cart. Technology is moving at an unprecedented pace. Who in the 1960’s would have thought the simple light bulb would be displaced by low energy bulbs and then in no time LED’s?

 

[NoName]

Hydrogen is a bad move for gas cookers and boilers for a number of reasons.

• If you burn Hydrogen at it's most efficient mix then it generates huge quantities of NOx. You have to burn it way below it's stoichiometric mix to avoid this.
• Massive amounts of condensation in effectively sealed houses. You will make a very nice sauna.
• Can you imagine putting hydrogen hobs/ovens in homes? Hydrogen has a much large range of mixes where it will combust. There will be a lot more booms.
• Hydrogen has a lower energy density than methane/Natural gas so you would need to pump a lot more through the pipes and burn it faster to get the same heat.
• Hydrogen embrittlement is a thing.
• Hydrogen will require a whole new set of pumping infrastructure. It can't be pumped using the existing natural gas pumping.
• Hydrogen from Hydrolysis requires huge quantities of electric. It makes more sense to use resistive heating which is 100% efficient.
• Safety.
• Cost of hydrolysis plants are spectacularly big.

Currently most hydrogen is produced by steam reformation of natural gas and releases huge quantities of CO2 in the process.

Why is so much time and money being put into hydrogen if it is so bad?
Gas companies want hydrogen to be a thing to save their business.
Gas distribution networks want hydrogen to be a thing to save their business.
Gas boiler companies want hydrogen to be a thing to save their business.

If you step back and look at it rationally though, there are way too many problems with hydrogen to the home for heating and cooking to make it practical in anything other than very small localised and highly controlled test settings.
Yes, it is possible. But just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

Sunday Times 18.4.21 Hydrogen powered boilers to replace gas boilers to meet CO2 targets.
Interesting read.

 

[Gromett]

Sunday Times 18.4.21 Hydrogen powered boilers to replace gas boilers to meet CO2 targets.
Interesting read.

Apart from the fact 1/3rd of the gas pipes on the network need to be replaced. It also doesn't mention the fact that you either have to run the hydrogen boiler at a low than the hydrogen stoichiometric ratio to avoid an oxidising flame otherwise you produce loads of NOx. This means the cost of running a hydrogen boiler will be excessive even if hydrogen costs the same as Methane which it doesn't.

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[NoName]

Apart from the fact 1/3rd of the gas pipes on the network need to be replaced. It also doesn't mention the fact that you either have to run the hydrogen boiler at a low than the hydrogen stoichiometric ratio to avoid an oxidising flame otherwise you produce loads of NOx. This means the cost of running a hydrogen boiler will be excessive even if hydrogen costs the same as Methane which it doesn't.

Very sad,you need to embrace innovation and change when it will ultimately improve the climate and therefore the lives of all who inhabit this world..

 

[olley]

Telling grom to embrace innovation.

 

[Gromett]

Very sad,you need to embrace innovation and change when it will ultimately improve the climate and therefore the lives of all who inhabit this world..

I suspect you don't know me

 

[NoName]

I suspect you don't know me

Rants are bad enough.

 

[Gromett]

Rants are bad enough.

Huh?

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[jongood]

Rants are bad enough.

your forum name is unfamiliar to me but its sounding like you could bring an informed new perspective to this thread. I've been on this forum for quite a long time now , seen lots of Gromett posts and my impression is that he fully embraces progress. If anything we sometimes wind him up a bit about it. It would be great if you two could carry on the discussion amicably and we could see how it develop s

 

[glenn2926]

your forum name is unfamiliar to me but its sounding like you could bring an informed new perspective to this thread. I've been on this forum for quite a long time now , seen lots of Gromett posts and my impression is that he fully embraces progress. If anything we sometimes wind him up a bit about it. It would be great if you two could carry on the discussion amicably and we could see how it develop s

I’ve been reading his posts for a good while now. He does seem to embrace progress but only electric progress. Gromett does seem to think only electric is progress even though for me an EV would be a very large backward step. There are a large number of vehicle users that battery vehicles are just not capable of fulfilling the role of their current diesel or petrol vehicles. He also seems to be of the impression that Tesla build the only electric vehicle worth mentioning, when to me it’s one of the worst built new cars I’ve ever seen. We all buy and use vehicles for different things, mine is a workhorse, a tool for a job. Battery vehicles cannot do the job that my beat up old pickup does and for how much I spend probably never will.
We don’t all live and work in cities.

 

[jongood]

I’ve been reading his posts for a good while now. He does seem to embrace progress but only electric progress. Gromett does seem to think only electric is progress even though for me an EV would be a very large backward step. There are a large number of vehicle users that battery vehicles are just not capable of fulfilling the role of their current diesel or petrol vehicles. He also seems to be of the impression that Tesla build the only electric vehicle worth mentioning, when to me it’s one of the worst built new cars I’ve ever seen. We all buy and use vehicles for different things, mine is a workhorse, a tool for a job. Battery vehicles cannot do the job that my beat up old pickup does and for how much I spend probably never will.
We don’t all live and work in cities.

Its the developing alternatives that are interesting me, I think bev will be the answer for the masses but not for all of us or all application. Its commercials that really interest me and funnily enough those are also the mh bases.

 

[Gromett]

I’ve been reading his posts for a good while now. He does seem to embrace progress but only electric progress. Gromett does seem to think only electric is progress even though for me an EV would be a very large backward step. There are a large number of vehicle users that battery vehicles are just not capable of fulfilling the role of their current diesel or petrol vehicles. He also seems to be of the impression that Tesla build the only electric vehicle worth mentioning, when to me it’s one of the worst built new cars I’ve ever seen. We all buy and use vehicles for different things, mine is a workhorse, a tool for a job. Battery vehicles cannot do the job that my beat up old pickup does and for how much I spend probably never will.
We don’t all live and work in cities.

You are misrepresenting me a little there. I do see a place for hydrogen in the future, just not in the UK transport network or home heating for the masses. I don't think EV's are the answer for everyone today, but the rate of progress means it is likely to be the answer in the UK. For other countries hydrogen may indeed be the main answer. I don't think Tesla are the only electric vehicle worth mentioning. I like the Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona and in fact would probably buy a Kona if I were in the market for an EV today. There are currently no second hand battery vans to replace my Vivaro so I will be sticking with diesel for quite a while.

I quote Tesla a lot because they are technological leaders. They have the best batteries, motors, controllers which reflects in their range. They also lead in the computerisation of cars which I am on a 50/50 perch for. I prefer simple over complex so not convinced that the computers in EV's should be doing quite as much as they are.

I don't think EV's are ready to take over the entire market now, but progress is so fast that by the time the 2030 gets here they will be good enough for pretty much everyone in the UK. Please note I say in the UK.

I think green hydrogen and green ammonia are going to be an extremely important tech going forward, but initially most of that hydrogen will be going to existing chemical and manufacturing industry if they are to decarbonise. Steel will swallow a lot of hydrogen to replace natural gas and coke. There are already 2 steel plants producing zero carbon steel, and volvo is about to start producing battery cars using this steel.

I am excited about more than just electric tech. I am into storage tech as well such as compressed air storage to give but one example. To say I only believe electric is progress would be incorrect. As soon as something comes along that can do the job in this country I will be on board. I just don't think hydrogen is the answer in the UK for cars, vans, lorries or central heating.

 

[tacr2man]

Leyland Trucks had an all electric Terrier 7.5 ton in 1982 IIRC , think it was just a bit too early for any success ?

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[emjaiuk]

Why do people keep going on about Tesla build quality? There’s two on our estate and another 4/5 that park regularly in the village, as well as more and more on the road. In spite of making a point of looking, I’ve yet to see any poorly fitting panels, or any other visual evidence of poor build quality. Or is it just the people who resent Tesla’s success?

 

[Gromett]

Leyland Trucks had an all electric Terrier 7.5 ton in 1982 IIRC , think it was just a bit too early for any success ?

Back then they used Lead Acid batteries which was a massive penalty right out the door. They also had to use DC brushed motors which hurt them further because the electronics to make a DC-AC invertor for motors was not practical.
The 3 things that have made modern cars, vans and trucks possible are;
1) Lithium Ion batteries at commercially viable prices.
2) Silicon Carbide Power FETs
3) Rare earth magnets such as neodymium magnets in commercial quantities and prices.

 

[glenn2926]

Why do people keep going on about Tesla build quality? There’s two on our estate and another 4/5 that park regularly in the village, as well as more and more on the road. In spite of making a point of looking, I’ve yet to see any poorly fitting panels, or any other visual evidence of poor build quality. Or is it just the people who resent Tesla’s success?

It’s probably people like me, ones that have worked in the trade. You do learn to spot poor panel fitting etc.

 

[emjaiuk]

It’s probably people like me, ones that have worked in the trade. You do learn to spot poor panel fitting etc.

All I look for is excessive or uneven gaps, and I haven’t seen any. If it takes professional trading and experience to spot poor panel fitting it can’t be that poor

 

[NoName]

your forum name is unfamiliar to me but its sounding like you could bring an informed new perspective to this thread. I've been on this forum for quite a long time now , seen lots of Gromett posts and my impression is that he fully embraces progress. If anything we sometimes wind him up a bit about it. It would be great if you two could carry on the discussion amicably and we could see how it develop s

Embracing means

your forum name is unfamiliar to me but its sounding like you could bring an informed new perspective to this thread. I've been on this forum for quite a long time now , seen lots of Gromett posts and my impression is that he fully embraces progress. If anything we sometimes wind him up a bit about it. It would be great if you two could carry on the discussion amicably and we could see how it develop s

Embracing in this context , means accepting new technology. Being stuck on one recent advance such as electric vehicles but precluding another, such as hydrogen ,is not embracing. The gentleman concerned ,whenever he disagrees , states “ he’s had enough or he’s leaving it” ( not necessarily a verbatim recall) four times at least.

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