Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

[glenn2926]

So Negative Gromett so Negative....., in the mean time industry is coming up with solutions in this case a small Hydrogen powered generator clearly this is aimed at a modern generation that is using low power LED lighting, (I am assuming you have LED Lights)

Lighten up Gromett, Hydrogen is here and will be a power option for people to use we should be delighted that it is.

You’ve no chance. According to Gromett there is electricity and nothing else. Which all comes via the national grid basically, the government. If they decide to increase the cost to us then we’re knackered and will have to pay whatever the government, national grid want to charge us, however much that may be. Remember, like they did with diesel. It was cheaper than petrol until a lot of us started using it. They (the government) then decided to charge much more for it. They will do the same via the national grid with electric.

 

[Gromett]

You’ve no chance. According to Gromett there is electricity and nothing else. Which all comes via the national grid basically, the government. If they decide to increase the cost to us then we’re knackered and will have to pay whatever the government, national grid want to charge us, however much that may be. Remember, like they did with diesel. It was cheaper than petrol until a lot of us started using it. They (the government) then decided to charge much more for it. They will do the same via the national grid with electric.

I didn't take you for a conspiracy nut???

The government charges exactly the same duty for diesel and petrol. The current rate is 57.95p per litre and has been frozen at that price since 2011. There has never been a separate rate for diesel and petrol.

The reason Diesel is more expensive in this country is basic market economics. Higher demand for the product than for petrol. This combined with the fact that 43% of a barrel of oil is petrol and only 22% of a barrel is Diesel.

Basic economics gives you the difference in price and the reason that Diesel started cheaper but became more expensive than petrol.

No need for any conspiracy theories about the goverment putting up prices after they encouraged us to change over to it.

 

[Coolcats]

You’ve no chance. According to Gromett there is electricity and nothing else. Which all comes via the national grid basically, the government. If they decide to increase the cost to us then we’re knackered and will have to pay whatever the government, national grid want to charge us, however much that may be. Remember, like they did with diesel. It was cheaper than petrol until a lot of us started using it. They (the government) then decided to charge much more for it. They will do the same via the national grid with electric.

I don’t disagree with you as all technology is politically shaped. Hydrogen has a way to go and could be a good alternative. We can see that trials are being had for Trains, Bus, commercial vehicles taxied and cars. The production and distribution of Hydrogen has its issues. The gas producers and distributors have a legitimate interest, as do boiler makers. If a switch from natural gas to hydrogen is not made then another whole industry will disappear and the jobs with them.

it is good to have choice and alternatives and blinkered to just have one option.

If I buy an EV over the next decade it will probably be a battery vehicle however given the challenges of tens of millions of vehicles all wanting to plug in. It seems inevitable that alternative fuel vehicles such as Hydrogen will emerge and would be good for a Motorhome to be powered by such an energy source.
Gromett started on another thread tried explaining via physics and maths why it would not happen due to the cost of producing hydrogen and Hydrogens energy yield. Whilst I have not questioned the physics or maths. This is not an argument that will stop Hydrogen production or use, It will be the political decisions that will make or break this technology in the end not that it ‘does not work’.
As I say I agree with you that relying on one alternate energy source is not good for us.

 

[Coolcats]

I didn't take you for a conspiracy nut???

The government charges exactly the same duty for diesel and petrol. The current rate is 57.95p per litre and has been frozen at that price since 2011. There has never been a separate rate for diesel and petrol.

The reason Diesel is more expensive in this country is basic market economics. Higher demand for the product than for petrol. This combined with the fact that 43% of a barrel of oil is petrol and only 22% of a barrel is Diesel.

Basic economics gives you the difference in price and the reason that Diesel started cheaper but became more expensive than petrol.

No need for any conspiracy theories about the goverment putting up prices after they encouraged us to change over to it.

View attachment 481296

View attachment 481297

There is a political element the US charge 18 cents per gallon the U.K. charge 57.95p a litre therefor I would suggest it is not market economics but a political decision in the way we pay for our fuel, in that way I think glenn2926 has a point about a fuel monopoly and having an alternate would be good.

Currently there is no fuel charge for electricity but this could change either as a per mile charge or a % on electricity used over a certain household usage or maybe a separate meter on charging points.

 

[glenn2926]

There is a political element the US charge 18 cents per gallon the U.K. charge 57.95p a litre therefor I would suggest it is not market economics but a political decision in the way we pay for our fuel, in that way I think glenn2926 has a point about a fuel monopoly and having an alternate would be good.

Currently there is no fuel charge for electricity but this could change either as a per mile charge or a % on electricity used over a certain household usage or maybe a separate meter on charging points.

I don’t think there’s any could. If we all stop paying fuel duty and use electricity then there is a massive fall in revenue for the government. This will need to be collected from somewhere. I wonder which fuel they can now put fuel duty on? Particularly as there will be no alternative. Sure we can generate some ourselves. How long do you think we’ll get away with not paying anything to the government for using our cars?

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[Gromett]

There is a political element the US charge 18 cents per gallon the U.K. charge 57.95p a litre therefor I would suggest it is not market economics but a political decision in the way we pay for our fuel, in that way I think glenn2926 has a point about a fuel monopoly and having an alternate would be good.

Currently there is no fuel charge for electricity but this could change either as a per mile charge or a % on electricity used over a certain household usage or maybe a separate meter on charging points.

That's a totally different point to the one he was making. He was suggesting the government persuaded us to move to diesel then put the price of diesel up. They didn't.

He doesn't have a point about fuel monopoly. Electricity operates pretty much the same as Diesel but actually better with more choice. There are multiple producers of electricity and multiple suppliers. They would have to collude rather than compete for the prices to go up drastically.

As for fuel charges on electric. That won't happen. They will put a mileage charge on. That will be fairer. Putting up electric costs will cause the poorest to seriously suffer due to heating costs. No government who did that would stay in power past a single election.

 

[jongood]

I got interested from an investment perspective and came across this:

EU Energy Commissioner visit to REFHYNE, the world’s largest PEM hydrogen electrolysis plant under construction | ITM

On 6 July, European Commissioner for Energy Kadri Simson visited REFHYNE, where the world’s largest PEM hydrogen electrolysis plant is under construction.

www.itm-power.com

 

[Coolcats]

I don’t think there’s any could. If we all stop paying fuel duty and use electricity then there is a massive fall in revenue for the government. This will need to be collected from somewhere. I wonder which fuel they can now put fuel duty on? Particularly as there will be no alternative. Sure we can generate some ourselves. How long do you think we’ll get away with not paying anything to the government for using our cars?

I think that the move to alternate fuelled vehicles will secure the pathway for the tracking of vehicle movement for government revenue the hole in the loss of petrochemical tax will have to be filled one way or another. I suspect the government have a tipping point for when they will implement after x number of petrol/diesel free vehicles are sold

 

[Coolcats]

I got interested from an investment perspective and came across this:

EU Energy Commissioner visit to REFHYNE, the world’s largest PEM hydrogen electrolysis plant under construction | ITM

On 6 July, European Commissioner for Energy Kadri Simson visited REFHYNE, where the world’s largest PEM hydrogen electrolysis plant is under construction.

www.itm-power.com

This is the type of investment that is needed and think we will continue to see, nice find

 

[Gromett]

I think that the move to alternate fuelled vehicles will secure the pathway for the tracking of vehicle movement for government revenue the hole in the loss of petrochemical tax will have to be filled one way or another. I suspect the government have a tipping point for when they will implement after x number of petrol/diesel free vehicles are sold

Hydrogen can be taxed like diesel. No need for mileage monitoring.

Electricity can't be taxed like diesel because it is used for so many other things. Taxing electric will hit the poorest the hardest.

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[TheTwoOfUs]

I suspect that when enough people have converted from ICE to an alternative fuel, VED will be imposed combined with a mileage charge. The Government cannot afford the shortfall in revenue created by the current electric vehicle set up. The nearer we get to the cut-off for sales of ICE vehicles the sooner we will see the end of zero VED. There will be no option of going back to ICE so the Government can do pretty much as it pleases.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

PS the Government could put a tax on the electricity supplied via charging points such as at fuel stations and supermarkets.

 

[glenn2926]

Hydrogen can be taxed like diesel. No need for mileage monitoring.

Electricity can't be taxed like diesel because it is used for so many other things. Taxing electric will hit the poorest the hardest.

The government can and will do exactly as they please. I cannot remember ever having a government that cared about the people. If they want to tax electric they will and once it’s the only choice we won’t have any option but to pay.

 

[Gromett]

The government can and will do exactly as they please. I cannot remember ever having a government that cared about the people. If they want to tax electric they will and once it’s the only choice we won’t have any option but to pay.

Poll tax ring a bell?
Remember the fuel protests in the early 2000's?

I could go on.

 

[glenn2926]

Poll tax ring a bell?
Remember the fuel protests in the early 2000's?

I could go on.

It doesn’t matter how much you love electric. You will never convince me that not having a choice of fuels is a good thing. Never put all your eggs in one basket.

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[Gromett]

It doesn’t matter how much you love electric. You will never convince me that not having a choice of fuels is a good thing. Never put all your eggs in one basket.

I don't understand why you are hung up on a choice of fuels. Providing a fuel is efficient, cost effective, readily available and has multiple independent sources anything else is just meaningless.

As for eggs in one basket. You do realise that your favoured hydrogen requires electric to create it, it then gets converted back to electric to drive the electric motors attached to the wheels.

At the moment, we have 2 sources of energy hydrocarbons and green electric (windmills/solar).

oil/gas/electric/hydrogen are all currently sourced from oil wells.

 

[olley]

The latest PEM electrolysers are around 80% efficient, for every 1k of leckky you get 800watts hydrogen.

 

[Coolcats]

I don't understand why you are hung up on a choice of fuels. Providing a fuel is efficient, cost effective, readily available and has multiple independent sources anything else is just meaningless.

As for eggs in one basket. You do realise that your favoured hydrogen requires electric to create it, it then gets converted back to electric to drive the electric motors attached to the wheels.

At the moment, we have 2 sources of energy hydrocarbons and green electric (windmills/solar).

oil/gas/electric/hydrogen are all currently sourced from oil wells.

This is an interesting stance Gromett, yet industries are investing in Hydrogen power, I have posted Bus, train, Trucks, road sweepers domestic boilers etc here is another example this time for Ships and some as we know are already operating out there: ABB initially expects short-distance shipping companies to use the fuel cells, sometimes cruising completely on hydrogen fuel-cell power, and at other times switching to a hybrid of fuel-cell power and battery power.

Context, choice and market forces I would suggest I can accept that this does not make sense to you. however it does not mean it is not any less real than the emergence of Battery powered EV's. Time, Market forces, technical developments and politics will shape what emerges as options in the future and its not such a bad thing to give us choice.

 

[Charlie9038]

Inspirational speech on green energy & green hydrogen.

 

[Gromett]

This is an interesting stance Gromett, yet industries are investing in Hydrogen power, I have posted Bus, train, Trucks, road sweepers domestic boilers etc here is another example this time for Ships and some as we know are already operating out there: ABB initially expects short-distance shipping companies to use the fuel cells, sometimes cruising completely on hydrogen fuel-cell power, and at other times switching to a hybrid of fuel-cell power and battery power.

Context, choice and market forces I would suggest I can accept that this does not make sense to you. however it does not mean it is not any less real than the emergence of Battery powered EV's. Time, Market forces, technical developments and politics will shape what emerges as options in the future and its not such a bad thing to give us choice.

Shipping is a very good target for Hydrogen fuel in my view. But it will take a very long time before it makes up even a small percentage of ships due to the lifespan of ships.

If you take out government funded projects, Oil/Gas companies and boiler companies, there is very little happening in the hydrogen transport arena in the UK.

The most promising things coming out of hydrogen is the Steel and Concrete industries use case. Now that is really exciting.

As for cars, vans and lorries. Not so much.

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[Coolcats]

Shipping is a very good target for Hydrogen fuel in my view. But it will take a very long time before it makes up even a small percentage of ships due to the lifespan of ships.

If you take out government funded projects, Oil/Gas companies and boiler companies, there is very little happening in the hydrogen transport arena in the UK.

The most promising things coming out of hydrogen is the Steel and Concrete industries use case. Now that is really exciting.

As for cars, vans and lorries. Not so much.

Going back to the original post, I am not saying there are no issues of Hydrogen supply but whilst manufacturers and industry including Charlie9038 post where Credit Suisse is interested in Hydrogen and alternative fuel investment it should be seen as exciting times.

This could make quite a nice small Campervan based on Hydrogen power

Stellantis has revealed the next step in its aim to become a zero-emissions car company with a new hydrogen fuel cell powered medium-sized van.

The new model - not yet revealed - is based on the platform-sharing Citroen e-Dispatch/Peugeot e-Expert/Vauxhall Vivaro-e electric vans, but the technology is replaced by a new hydrogen fuel cell system.

The set-up is described by Stellantis as a mid-power system. It comprises a 60bhp fuel cell stack under the bonnet, which is connected to three hydrogen tanks that can carry 4.4kg of hydrogen and are mounted under the cargo floor, in place of the electric van's 50kWh battery.

In addition, there's a 10.5kWh battery mounted under the seats which can be plugged in to be recharged. This provides power for the 121bhp electric motor which drives the front wheels and offers up to 31 miles of range on its own. Stellantis promises that the combined fuel cell system will be easily capable of more than 250 miles (subject to official WLTP tests) of zero-emissions driving, while three-minute refill times for the hydrogen system are far shorter than those for the electric vans.

The set-up is designed to mix power sources, so the battery provides power from a standstill, at low speeds and under acceleration, while the fuel cell takes over at cruising speeds when less energy is needed. As with full EVs, the system recoups energy back into the battery when coasting or decelerating.

 

[Gromett]

Going back to the original post, I am not saying there are no issues of Hydrogen supply but whilst manufacturers and industry including Charlie9038 post where Credit Suisse is interested in Hydrogen and alternative fuel investment it should be seen as exciting times.

This could make quite a nice small Campervan based on Hydrogen power

Stellantis has revealed the next step in its aim to become a zero-emissions car company with a new hydrogen fuel cell powered medium-sized van.

The new model - not yet revealed - is based on the platform-sharing Citroen e-Dispatch/Peugeot e-Expert/Vauxhall Vivaro-e electric vans, but the technology is replaced by a new hydrogen fuel cell system.

The set-up is described by Stellantis as a mid-power system. It comprises a 60bhp fuel cell stack under the bonnet, which is connected to three hydrogen tanks that can carry 4.4kg of hydrogen and are mounted under the cargo floor, in place of the electric van's 50kWh battery.

In addition, there's a 10.5kWh battery mounted under the seats which can be plugged in to be recharged. This provides power for the 121bhp electric motor which drives the front wheels and offers up to 31 miles of range on its own. Stellantis promises that the combined fuel cell system will be easily capable of more than 250 miles (subject to official WLTP tests) of zero-emissions driving, while three-minute refill times for the hydrogen system are far shorter than those for the electric vans.

The set-up is designed to mix power sources, so the battery provides power from a standstill, at low speeds and under acceleration, while the fuel cell takes over at cruising speeds when less energy is needed. As with full EVs, the system recoups energy back into the battery when coasting or decelerating.

Stellantis is hedging it's bets. Who is going to buy these vans when there is nowhere to fill them up? I would if I were a gambling man put money on their market share being around 99% BEV and 1% Hydrogen at best. There is no national distribution or refuelling network for hydrogen so the use case for van's is limited to places where government agencies have already funded a hydrogen fuelling station. I will come back to hydrogen fuelling stations later.

As for Credit Suisse. They like most other investment bankers get most things wrong. They consistently bet against Tesla for example.

Why are they bullish about hydrogen other than the fact they don't understand it? Well because they see the billions of subsidies being put into Hydrogen and they want to get their mitts on the cash. They will benefit as there will be hundreds of hydrogen startups some of which will float on the stock exchange and they will get their fees. When it comes to which tech will win the last people I listen to are bankers. They play the numbers nothing more.


Back to hydrogen fuelling stations.
Have you actually seen one? They take up quite a bit of land considering how few vehicles they can refuel. For council run operations with a fixed number of vehicles say for example buses this is not too much of an issue.
Check this one out. It can produce 200Kg of hydrogen a day currently used to refuel 6 buses.

Now can you imaging how big it would need to be to refuel 100's of cars/vans a day?

If you think there is going to be problems with the grid infrastructure to handle charging battery cars. Then think about this. It takes 4 x as much electric for the hydrogen. Each hydrogen station would need to have massive electric grid infrastructure upgrades if it is to be more than a small test bed.
Each of these stations costs many millions of £ to build out excluding the grid upgrades.

The small refuelling station in Aberdeen for instance cost £2.6M to build.

 

[olley]

Where do you get 4x from grom? PEM is about 80% efficient so 1kw in 800watts out.

 

[Gromett]

Where do you get 4x from grom? PEM is about 80% efficient so 1kw in 800watts out.

You have to compress it and chill it this takes a big chunk.
Then there is the conversion back to electric by the Fuel cell.

 

[Gromett]

Here is another little snippet of info for you.

It takes 48.75MWh of electric to electrolyse 1T of Hydrogen.
World usage of Hydrogen is currently 75Million Tons.
The vast majority of current hydrogen production is made using Steam reforming of methane (natural gas) which releases vast quantities of CO2 into the air.

This needs to be cleaned. If we were to move to green hydrogen (electrolysers) for just the current hydrogen usage we would need more electric than is currently produced by ALL wind and solar plants we have installed so far.

I will let you do the maths. but 75,000,000 tons of hydrogen x 48.75MWh and that is before we chill it and compress it...

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[olley]

All that is true but 1kg of hydrogen contains around 33kw while the best batteries are around 300watts so even allowing for all the efficiencys for a given weight of fuel you go further on hydrogen.
Storage is another aspect, you can build large tanks cheaply, an order of magnitude cheaper than an equivalent battery bank.
To be clear I don't see it as an alternative to ev's but possibly lorries or buses and certainly ships.
Scientist are trying to develop better methods of electrolysis and storage, one method is as you know as ammonia NH4 but that's not an easy or cheap process, the advantage being you can store it in similar tanks to lpg at room temperatures. An Australian company claims to have developed an efficient method to extract the hydrogen using membranes.

So who knows what the future holds.

 

[Gromett]

All that is true but 1kg of hydrogen contains around 33kw while the best batteries are around 300watts so even allowing for all the efficiencys for a given weight of fuel you go further on hydrogen.
Storage is another aspect, you can build large tanks cheaply, an order of magnitude cheaper than an equivalent battery bank.
To be clear I don't see it as an alternative to ev's but possibly lorries or buses and certainly ships.
Scientist are trying to develop better methods of electrolysis and storage, one method is as you know as ammonia NH4 but that's not an easy or cheap process, the advantage being you can store it in similar tanks to lpg at room temperatures. An Australian company claims to have developed an efficient method to extract the hydrogen using membranes.

So who knows what the future holds.

You are mixing up the energy density with the power required to create it.

You can improve electrolosys so far but you come up against the hard limits of physics.

Ammonia is a great fuel for ships. However, to make you need hydrogen, and we are back to the same debate again.

The problem with PEM membranes is that they need extremely pure water to prevent them getting clogged up. I think in the long term this will result in higher costs than electrolyses but to be honest not looked into it in any great depth as it is only used in extremely small scale application so far..

Proton exchange membrane electrolysis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Charlie9038]

Here is another company that is part of the future.
Decarbonisation is happening in the world.

Home

AFC Energy is the leading provider of Fuel Cell technology for a generation of clean energy, offering best in class performance and lowest operating cost as part of global efforts to decarbonise industry.

www.afcenergy.com

Just teamed up with ABB to create EV charging stations around the globe.

 

[Gromett]

Here is another company that is part of the future.
Decarbonisation is happening in the world.

Home

AFC Energy is the leading provider of Fuel Cell technology for a generation of clean energy, offering best in class performance and lowest operating cost as part of global efforts to decarbonise industry.

www.afcenergy.com

Just teamed up with ABB to create EV charging stations around the globe.

Makes sense. Hydrogen usage for grid constrained areas of the world is probably a sensible solution.

AFC Energy had a transformational 2020, including the launch of a strategic partnership with ABB in December to create the next generation of high power sustainable electric vehicle (EV) charging solutions for grid constrained locations across the globe.

Saudi Arabia and the Middle east in general is going to be screwed when we go net carbon zero. They don't have a decent grid system but have plenty of sun. Loads of solar farms with hydrogen plants co-located makes a load of sense for them...

Doesn't change my view that hydrogen makes absolutely no sense for transport in the UK.

 

[Charlie9038]

Oil and gas are dirty pollutants that the world is slowly abandoning.
It recently became a lot cheaper to produce hydrogen.
See, while hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it doesn’t exist in “free” form. You have to create it – by turning water into hydrogen, using a process called electrolysis.
And the cost of doing so is collapsing.
According to BloombergNEF, the cost will drop sharply over the next decade – by as much as a whopping 80%.
Nobel Prize winner Steven Chu said this could unleash the hydrogen economy over the following years.
In fact, according to ENGIE engineer Kevin Kinsella, hydrogen now costs the same as natural gas in the UK.
These falling costs will create a $2.5 trillion market as the so-called “hydrogen economy” develops.
That’s why the Electrochemical Society calls hydrogen the “holy-grail of clean-energy.”
And why in Davos the world’s first Hydrogen Council was created. Today it has quadrupled in size. It has over 60 member companies, including Big Oil companies such as BP, Royal Dutch Shell and Anglo American and major can manufacturers such as Audi, BMW Group, Honda and Toyota.
Together these companies have €2.6 trillion in revenue and employ 4.2 million people.
Even Saudi Arabia is making moves into hydrogen. Saudi Aramco opened its first hydrogen station in June 2020
The “hydrogen economy” is happening, make no mistake.

Basically, it refers to the idea of transforming our existing hydrocarbon-based infrastructure – from static power generation to a full range of transportation applications – to run on hydrogen in order to cut carbon and carbon dioxide emissions.

Fuel cell vehicles already on our roads​

You see, fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) are increasingly seen as a particularly viable alternative to conventional internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, complementing growth in battery-electric vehicles.
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are powered by electric motors, but instead of carrying their energy in a battery pack, they create electricity by combining hydrogen with oxygen from the air in a fuel cell. Water vapour and heat are the only byproducts from the vehicle’s exhaust.
Countries around the world are forging ahead with the technology: Japan aims to have 200,000 hydrogen cars on its roads by 2025, served by 320 fuelling stations, while China, the world’s biggest car market, is putting its manufacturing and policy might behind hydrogen fuel cells, just as it has with battery-electric vehicles.

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