Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

[jongood]

O

I don't agree. I can see your point with regards to distribution work, loading on a bay, tipping on a bay or plugging in at a shop when delivering. Great, that would work.

But, what about the huge number of trucks that never go anywhere near a loading bay? I don't. I deliver boats, never in a million years would it ever work for me, but what about tippers, flats, low loaders and numerous other configurations that do site work, so to speak, and simply don't start at a warehouse or deliver to a warehouse.

And what about the JIT fridge distribution? I used to freight forward fridge loads. One of my customers, Gist, (Marks & Spencer) would demand specific loading times and critical intake times. Load and go, no time to hang about with chilled food due in the shops that night or early morning. It could be as quick as 15 minutes to load and 15 to tip, it could also be hours to load and tip if the produce wasn't ready, but my point is that even in distribution, it would have limited effectiveness without impinging on the distribution chain?

The idea of alternative fuels eventually being the standard is somewhat environmental romanticism. Sure it can work in some instances but realistically, not many....in my opinion.

 

[jongood]

O

I'm on a bay at Asda cdc right now. Been on here 10 minutes and almost done, if I sit here on a green I will soon be getting hassle from the shunters

 

[jongood]

Lucky fella, is he an o/d or employed? Shouldn't think there's many operators who have them? One of my mates has a new S cab V8 and he says that he has to be careful because its so comfy, like a car that he has found he forgets his spacial awareness sometimes? Mind you, these V8's don't sound like they used to?

Yes new generation v8 are too quiet , not like your 143 (twin eminox?)but the performance is incredible. Eats 500's for breakfast

 

[Paulypaul]

I'm on a bay at Asda cdc right now. Been on here 10 minutes and almost done, if I sit here on a green I will soon be getting hassle from the shunters

Exactly my point! Take care out there jongood

 

[Paulypaul]

Yes new generation v8 are too quiet , not like your 143 (twin eminox?)but the performance is incredible. Eats 500's for breakfast

Oh I can dream can't I?

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[jongood]

You appear to have missed my point. The vast majority of trucks will start the day off with a full battery and enough energy to do a full days work, so won't need to use the services. These people won't be parked in the services or even go into the services.
You will actually see less lorries going into the services. Most loading docks will have charge ports on them to top up while unloading/loading.

So with less using the services, there will be two types of parking in services in the future. Slots with chargers which you won't be able to stay in unless charging and non charging slots.

I don't have all the answers, but the issues you are bringing up are extremely minor in the grand scheme of things and are easy to resolve.

I agree about the maths grommet but I think you're forgetting about the practicalities of being in the right place at a convenient time and finding a vacant charge point. Some big firm drivers already miss no excuse to scive so giving them this to do just opens another Avenue. I know guys who would sit on a bay till theyre asked to leave, then find the charging point with longest queue and then claim they're out of hours.

 

[Coolcats]

I agree about the maths grommet but I think you're forgetting about the practicalities of being in the right place at a convenient time and finding a vacant charge point. Some big firm drivers already miss no excuse to scive so giving them this to do just opens another Avenue. I know guys who would sit on a bay till theyre asked to leave, then find the charging point with longest queue and then claim they're out of hours.

Creativity is non rational, the rationality Gromett argues may seem compelling but rationality in itself is not creative (Maslow) ....which is why I do believe there will be a mix of alternative fuelled vehicles in the future

 

[Gromett]

I don't agree. I can see your point with regards to distribution work, loading on a bay, tipping on a bay or plugging in at a shop when delivering. Great, that would work.

I was using that not to show it would work but that it would reduce the number of lorries going to fuel stations.

But, what about the huge number of trucks that never go anywhere near a loading bay? I don't. I deliver boats, never in a million years would it ever work for me, but what about tippers, flats, low loaders and numerous other configurations that do site work, so to speak, and simply don't start at a warehouse or deliver to a warehouse.

You deliver boats? Do you do more than 600 miles in a trip?

I will give you one example of where it wouldn't work. Long distance heavy loads. Say there was a huge wide load, for example a nuclear pressure tank that needs to be delivered from the north of Scotland down to the south of England. Totally made up and unrealistic but go with it for a worst case scenario.
It has 3 drivers on a rotation... There is no way this can get the job done is there?

Well, this is the problem that most people have. They know the industry they are in too well and know how things are done. This quite often (but not always) prevents them from thinking outside the regular solutions.

How about one of these two solutions.
Mobile charging stations. These would be a truck with a large battery pack on the loadbed and charger infrastructure. It would meet the truck at specific points on the journey and recharge it.
Ah but that means stopping for 45 minutes which is not acceptable in our hypothetical scenarios.
How about this then. A second tractor unit meets up at a pre-defined location and when they swap drivers they swap tractor units.

And what about the JIT fridge distribution? I used to freight forward fridge loads. One of my customers, Gist, (Marks & Spencer) would demand specific loading times and critical intake times. Load and go, no time to hang about with chilled food due in the shops that night or early morning. It could be as quick as 15 minutes to load and 15 to tip, it could also be hours to load and tip if the produce wasn't ready, but my point is that even in distribution, it would have limited effectiveness without impinging on the distribution chain?

That as I understand is not usually seriously long distance work. A single charge at the beginning of the day should be enough to perform a full days work. You buy the truck with the range to fulfill the needs. Surely a 600 mile range reefer will be capable of delivering for Gist M&S type jobs in the UK?

The idea of alternative fuels eventually being the standard is somewhat environmental romanticism. Sure it can work in some instances but realistically, not many....in my opinion.

I disagree as you might expect. Sure it will take some changes to how some things are done. But with ranges of 600 miles there is very little an EV truck can't do.

 

[Gromett]

I agree about the maths grommet but I think you're forgetting about the practicalities of being in the right place at a convenient time and finding a vacant charge point. Some big firm drivers already miss no excuse to scive so giving them this to do just opens another Avenue. I know guys who would sit on a bay till theyre asked to leave, then find the charging point with longest queue and then claim they're out of hours.

They will get fired surely? The new EV trucks have route planning software built in, monitoring and the fleet owner can ask why didn't you charge on the dock?

 

[Gromett]

I'm on a bay at Asda cdc right now. Been on here 10 minutes and almost done, if I sit here on a green I will soon be getting hassle from the shunters

ok. But how many miles are you going to do today? If you are doing under 600 miles then an EV truck would get you out and back.

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[Paulypaul]

Mmm, yes, I do long distance work and it's also abnormal loads. I have to be mindful of where I can actually go to fill up with diesel when I've got an abnormal load on to prevent me getting stuck or damaging the boat, plus, I cannot deviate from the route that I have had to notify to the Police and Highways in advance of the movement. (They have the power to reject a movement if they feel that the route isn't appropriate for the size of the load) It pretty much rules me out of any alternative fuel scenario, not to mention i couldn't finance such a vehicle and really wouldn't want to be tied up in finance like that.

I wonder what size these batteries would have to be and what weight they are to have a capacity of 600 miles in all terrains, not just flat motorways? You see, any reduction in payload in distribution work will inevitably mean more trucks?

 

[Peter and Julie]

My brother has a Land Rover discovery sport that’s both petrol and electric. It manages at best a grand total of 27 miles on electric. Yes 27 miles, that’s it, run out, empty. It only manages this if he makes it use petrol until he’s on flat roads. Of which there are very few around here.
You seem to think or want that the only future fuel is electric. Why don’t you want other alternative fuels to be successful? As far as I can see, so far electric vehicles are so far short of what ICE vehicles can do it’s embarrassing that you think they are in any way at all better. In fact never mind better electric vehicles are not even as good as vehicles using propulsion first used over 100 years ago.
I had a really good look around a Tesla a couple of days ago. Honestly, it was quite probably the worst built modern car I’ve seen, bar none.
I’ve literally just an hour or so ago watched a YouTube program about a steam powered truck. It could go 30 miles before needing water. That’s 3 miles further than my brothers disco. Hmm progress eh!!!

I've got the Volvo XC90 T8 electric and petrol and if not doing long distance (I don't usually) I'm getting 72mpg to 88mpg a winner in my view! Had it 2 months and filled up twice at £70. Also have solar on the house roof for the sparky stuff!

 

[Paulypaul]

expand...

That as I understand is not usually seriously long distance work. A single charge at the beginning of the day should be enough to perform a full days work. You buy the truck with the range to fulfill the needs. Surely a 600 mile range reefer will be capable of delivering for Gist M&S type jobs in the UK?

You aren't correct in that assumption. Trunking work moves produce from one end of the country to the other. Cumbernauld to Faversham? Might not be 600 miles but you ain't got time to hang about and that's the bottom line. You load in Bolton and have to tip down in Kent, reload and back up, again, unless you've got unlimited drivers hours, you're up against it? Last thing you could afford is to waste an hour and a half waiting to fill up with fuel.

I imagine traffic police and dvsa won't stand for "sorry officer, the queue at the plug in point was huge, and I've got to get this fresh produce into a depot to be distributed into the shops for tomorrrow, so I thought I'd run bent as my times up"

 

[jongood]

They will get fired surely? The new EV trucks have route planning software built in, monitoring and the fleet owner can ask why didn't you charge on the dock?

Have you not heard about the driver shortage,?

 

[jongood]

ok. But how many miles are you going to do today? If you are doing under 600 miles then an EV truck would get you out and back.

600 miles would easily cover a days work. Ironically neither of the yards i work from have an electric supply but yes this is easy to remedy, getting drivers to reliably plug them in though

I do agree that we will see fleet s of electric trucks in the near future but I also think there will be a huge market for self charging hybrid.

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[Gromett]

You aren't correct in that assumption. Trunking work moves produce from one end of the country to the other. Cumbernauld to Faversham? Might not be 600 miles but you ain't got time to hang about and that's the bottom line. You load in Bolton and have to tip down in Kent, reload and back up, again, unless you've got unlimited drivers hours, you're up against it? Last thing you could afford is to waste an hour and a half waiting to fill up with fuel.

I just checked and Cumbernauld (Glasgow) to Faversham is 448 miles. You could do this trip on a single charge with a 600 mile range EV lorry.

 

[Gromett]

I wonder what size these batteries would have to be and what weight they are to have a capacity of 600 miles in all terrains, not just flat motorways? You see, any reduction in payload in distribution work will inevitably mean more trucks?

Very little reduction in payload according to Tesla. Less than 1 Metric ton today and the penalty will be reduced in the future with improved battery performance.

Tesla Semi electric truck to have up to 621 miles of range, says Elon Musk

Elon Musk made new comments about the Tesla Semi program, Tesla’s upcoming electric semi truck, and said that the vehicle...

electrek.co

 

[glenn2926]

I just checked and Cumbernauld (Glasgow) to Faversham is 448 miles. You could do this trip on a single charge with a 600 mile range EV lorry.

I don’t see how. 448 each way is 896 miles. How you can get a 600 mile range truck to do that I really don’t know.

 

[Paulypaul]

I'm out of this one....it reminds me of when traffic planning used to be done by ex drivers who knew what was involved in doing the job, how long it took and what the problems could be.

Then all of a sudden graduates came into the industry with their hi tech qualifications and if the computer says that to get from point A>B in a certain time, then that must be true?

None of these people had ever stepped inside a truck let alone try and get a load from A > B.

I hope for the environmental warriors out there that one day everything will be fuelled by "green" fuel, but for now, I'm happy to pump 450 litres of squirt into my tank and manage to get between 11 - 12 mpg.

Over and out!

 

[Gromett]

I don’t see how. 448 each way is 896 miles. How you can get a 600 mile range truck to do that I really don’t know.

He was asking about a trip that had to be done in a certain amount of time without stopping for refuelling. 600 > 448. Job done.

A driver in the UK is not likely to be able to do much more than 600 miles in a day within his hours, so a stop for the night will be required anyway.

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[glenn2926]

He was asking about a trip that had to be done in a certain amount of time without stopping for refuelling. 600 > 448. Job done.

A driver in the UK is not likely to be able to do much more than 600 miles in a day within his hours, so a stop for the night will be required anyway.

He actually said run down, tip, reload and return. That’s going both ways. I’ve done a good few jobs double crewing where sitting around waiting to charge is not feasible. We just cannot waste time like that. The truck isn’t earning whilst it’s sat around. Electric has its uses, just not everywhere. The whole world relying on a single fuel source cannot be the only way forward.

 

[Gromett]

He actually said run down, tip, reload and return. That’s going both ways. I’ve done a good few jobs double crewing where sitting around waiting to charge is not feasible. We just cannot waste time like that. The truck isn’t earning whilst it’s sat around. Electric has its uses, just not everywhere. The whole world relying on a single fuel source cannot be the only way forward.

Erm, no he didn't. He gave two trip examples.

Trunking work moves produce from one end of the country to the other. Cumbernauld to Faversham? Might not be 600 miles but you ain't got time to hang about and that's the bottom line. You load in Bolton and have to tip down in Kent, reload and back up, again

The reload and back up again was Bolton to Kent. Bolton to Ashford in Kent is 284, That is within the 600 miles round trip capacity of the 621 mile tesla.

The Cumbernauld to Faversham is literally not possible to do with a return trip and keep within drivers hours.

Travelling at 60mph constantly gives you 10 hours of driving.
As drivers are restricted to 9 hours of driving (except for twice a week where 10 hours can be driven) a 600 mile truck is more than sufficient for any round trip in the UK.

As for double crewing. I wasn't able to find the numbers for this, but I strongly suspect it is an extremely tiny percentage of the market.

I think you are looking for the exception which are a minority of jobs to say that the entire thing is not practical.

EV trucks will within the next 5-10 years take over the vast majority of new truck sales. The advantages in terms of reduced fuel costs and maintenance costs will more than make up for having to organise charging breaks.

There are of course jobs that an EV truck couldn't do today. But the technology is moving fast and in the 10 year + timescale 800 and 1000 mile trucks will become practical.

 

[Coolcats]

Erm, no he didn't. He gave two trip examples.



The reload and back up again was Bolton to Kent. Bolton to Ashford in Kent is 284, That is within the 600 miles round trip capacity of the 621 mile tesla.

The Cumbernauld to Faversham is literally not possible to do with a return trip and keep within drivers hours.

Travelling at 60mph constantly gives you 10 hours of driving.
As drivers are restricted to 9 hours of driving (except for twice a week where 10 hours can be driven) a 600 mile truck is more than sufficient for any round trip in the UK.

As for double crewing. I wasn't able to find the numbers for this, but I strongly suspect it is an extremely tiny percentage of the market.

I think you are looking for the exception which are a minority of jobs to say that the entire thing is not practical.

EV trucks will within the next 5-10 years take over the vast majority of new truck sales. The advantages in terms of reduced fuel costs and maintenance costs will more than make up for having to organise charging breaks.

There are of course jobs that an EV truck couldn't do today. But the technology is moving fast and in the 10 year + timescale 800 and 1000 mile trucks will become practical.

As could Hydrogen 1000 miles the major hauliers could generate those own, solar panels on distribution centres could generate quite an amount of Hydrogen.

 

[glenn2926]

Erm, no he didn't. He gave two trip examples.



The reload and back up again was Bolton to Kent. Bolton to Ashford in Kent is 284, That is within the 600 miles round trip capacity of the 621 mile tesla.

The Cumbernauld to Faversham is literally not possible to do with a return trip and keep within drivers hours.

Travelling at 60mph constantly gives you 10 hours of driving.
As drivers are restricted to 9 hours of driving (except for twice a week where 10 hours can be driven) a 600 mile truck is more than sufficient for any round trip in the UK.

As for double crewing. I wasn't able to find the numbers for this, but I strongly suspect it is an extremely tiny percentage of the market.

I think you are looking for the exception which are a minority of jobs to say that the entire thing is not practical.

EV trucks will within the next 5-10 years take over the vast majority of new truck sales. The advantages in terms of reduced fuel costs and maintenance costs will more than make up for having to organise charging breaks.

There are of course jobs that an EV truck couldn't do today. But the technology is moving fast and in the 10 year + timescale 800 and 1000 mile trucks will become practical.

You still do not address the problem of there only being one option for fuel. This is for heating, cooking, vehicles, lighting, in fact everything. What’s to stop the supplier demanding ten times the current price once we move to your utopia of a single choice? Which is basically pay what we charge or no electricity. Monopoly is never good for anything. Choice drives prices, when there isn’t one we’ll be all held to ransom on price.

 

[olley]

Way back in the 'old' days the Stanley Steamer could be ready to go from cold in just about 1 minute - and speed very near 100 mph, - didn't an American car maker reintroduce a steam car in the '60's ?

Instant steam, you heat a small bore pipe so the water turns to steam almost instantly, no boiler to heat, I believe the Canadians were play about with this for steam trains back in the 50-60's. You wouldn't use coal only oil or gas.

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[Coolcats]

Instant steam, you heat a small bore pipe so the water turns to steam almost instantly, no boiler to heat, I believe the Canadians were play about with this for steam trains back in the 50-60's. You wouldn't use coal only oil or gas.

Just imagine a small reactor powered steam vehicle...no Batteries....no hydrogen just steam

 

[Gromett]

You still do not address the problem of there only being one option for fuel. This is for heating, cooking, vehicles, lighting, in fact everything. What’s to stop the supplier demanding ten times the current price once we move to your utopia of a single choice? Which is basically pay what we charge or no electricity. Monopoly is never good for anything. Choice drives prices, when there isn’t one we’ll be all held to ransom on price.

I haven't addressed it because it is a silly argument

Currently all trucks use Diesel.. Moving to Electric makes no difference on this front.
Just like you can choose between Shell, Esso, BP etc. You can choose between electric suppliers.
There is not just one company generating electric and there is not just one company selling electric. The only common thread through the electric market is the distribution grid operated by the National Grid Company, which happens to be regulated by the government with fixed prices on what it charges for transmission. So if one company starts to gouge you on electric costs, move to another..

HOWEVER. There is one big advantage to moving to electric... You can produce you own electric unlike diesel.

 

[Coolcats]

HOWEVER. There is one big advantage to moving to electric... You can produce you own electric unlike diesel.

And Hydrogen, you could always use Hymera Hydrogen (electric generator) and a Genie Hydrogen Cylinder (22Kg) I suspect it could always be used as a source of fuel for Cooking I guess. whichever way you look at it Hydrogen is not 'dead in the water'

 

[Gromett]

And Hydrogen, you could always use Hymera Hydrogen (electric generator) and a Genie Hydrogen Cylinder (22Kg) I suspect it could always be used as a source of fuel for Cooking I guess. whichever way you look at it Hydrogen is not 'dead in the water'

Keep banging the drum. But neither of those items are enough to power my lightbulbs and laptop never mind a truck.

 

[Coolcats]

Keep banging the drum. But neither of those items are enough to power my lightbulbs and laptop never mind a truck.

So Negative Gromett so Negative....., in the mean time industry is coming up with solutions in this case a small Hydrogen powered generator clearly this is aimed at a modern generation that is using low power LED lighting, (I am assuming you have LED Lights)

Lighten up Gromett, Hydrogen is here and will be a power option for people to use we should be delighted that it is.

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