How to Make "A" Frames better

[justme AKA Grath]

All trailers

I am 53 now but used to go away with my friends family in their caravan when i was boy 45 years ago and remember this U shaped attachment that would be hinged over the top of the brake plunger to stop it depressing when they reversed cancelling the plunger action of the brakes system. The caravan was a swift.


My Kia tows beautifully on the frame behind my RV and my Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Hi Roadrunner,
I was in the boat trade and all the boat trailers had the same thing.
It was quite normal on all trailers fitted with brakes and it worked very well.
I used these on a nearly daily basis without any problem!!!
I dont know why they moved on as very simple and zilch to go wrong!!!
Except for that you had to get out of the car !!!

 

[Road Runner]

Hi Roadrunner,
I was in the boat trade and all the boat trailers had the same thing.
It was quite normal on all trailers fitted with brakes and it worked very well.
I used these on a nearly daily basis without any problem!!!
I dont know why they moved on as very simple and zilch to go wrong!!!
Except for that you had to get out of the car !!!

I must be getting old as had to really racked my brains to remember this

Probably hairy if you forgot to take it off though

Going away with this family was always great fun and alway eventful accidents breakdown you name it

My parents had to work as hoteliers and this was a great way to get me away.

 

[justme AKA Grath]

Well

I must be getting old as had to really racked my brains to remember this

Probably hairy if you forgot to take it off though

Going away with this family was always great fun and alway eventfulaccidents breakdown you name it

My parents had to work as hoteliers and this was a great way to get me away.

Well, I must be really old at 58 as I can remember these clips like it was yesterday

 

[justme AKA Grath]

Wanted

Well, I must be really old at 58 as I can remember these clips like it was yesterday

WANTED< ZIMMER FRAME

 

[Enodreven]

Hi,
Are any of you still members of the site that has a similar name to this, only i have been seaching for items regarding "A" frames and have come across a thread on the other site where a chap with the handle "Noel" has posted a letter that appears to come from one of the "A" frame manufacturers that seems to answer most of the questions regarding the legal issue.

Getting back to the point I can't post on that site, so would one of you mind checking with "Noel" if we could have a copy of the letter on hear and if he could point us to where on the web it can be found ??

Its on page 2 of the following link I have replaced the last word with ???? I'm sure you will understand.

Link Removed

Thanks

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Bryan

I remember the post's by Noel, the letter quoted doesnt help as it was all BS anyway, even the national trailer body got this wrong (they did change part of their site) after I pointed out it was wrong, but they still have not fully corrected the site.

Honestly its a not worth having, other than to point out where it and the NTTA are wrong.......

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

Thanks for the input, but from what i read and if it was actually writtern by the manufacturer, it did appear that it would be perhaps useful as they were ?it appeared? committing themselves to the legality of any "A" frames they supply, they also appear to be stating quiet categorically that the braking system that they fit actually meets the braking force required, which in its self is interesting.

While that may not cover the reversing element it would perhaps remove the need for further investigation into the extra vacumm system ??

There just some of the items i would like to look at, hopefully with your input,

so please if anyone can get a copy I would appreciate it

Hi Bryan

I remember the post's by Noel, the letter quoted doesnt help as it was all BS anyway, even the national trailer body got this wrong (they did change part of their site) after I pointed out it was wrong, but they still have not fully corrected the site.

Honestly its a not worth having, other than to point out where it and the NTTA are wrong.......

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

I have not got a copy, but it contained a story of how someone Got away with it in Spain, basically they invoked the reciprical use law ie if legal in country of origin... But they claimed to be using it as a dolly for recovery, unfortunately the spanish court fell for it (that time), but would anyone actually convert and fit AFrame gear just for an off chance recovery, I think not..... Reality was it proved nothing other than the Spanish courts gullabilty on one occasion......

The rest refered to National trailer and towing association's (NTTA) inaccurate interpretation of the law (it was just plain wrong, after I contacted them they did amend it, not totally accurate, but better)

Breaking News update.......... having checked the NTTA website they have changed it (yet) again...

it now contains only one mistake (although perversely it corrects it in the following paragraph) here is the new FAQ answer, I have highlighted the wrong part first and then their "correction" from following paragraph...

I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100.

An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

At last the national trailer and towing body as caught up..........

 

[kijana]

It may be worth considering the attitude of a great Briton who died a while ago regarding this obsession with the letter of the law.

I'm sure most will remember the story of Nelson, who when sailing in to engage the enemy (Spanish, as it happens), was alerted to a signal from the admiral of the fleet telling him to hold back and not engage the opposition.

His response was to raise his telescope to his blind eye, and to inform his officer "I see no signal". So he sailed on, fought his battle, and won it.

I'm sure the interpretation GT & some others choose to apply to the elements of law they quote has some validity. I'm just as sure that part of the law quoted by the purveyors of A-frames is equally valid: possibly more so since they could be prosecuted for selling illegal equipment, or at least for misinformation relating to their goods.

What is beyond dispute is that A-frames have been shown to be safe by the hundreds of thousands of miles of collective customer testing: I've yet to hear of a single accident caused by an A-frame.

Given this, I suspect that the authorities are prepared to view any disputed legislation through a Nelsonian telescope. OK, it may or may not be legal (I personally believe it is).

But as long as both my insurance companies have agreed that my fully comp insurance is not affected (which they have), and as long as scrutiny by the police of England, France & Spain results in either no action, or just in interested questions (which it has), I will continue to use our A-frame and to enjoy all the benefits it confers.

There may be a place for pedantry in the interpretation of the law, but thus far it has not been deemed relevant to this useful bit of touring kit.

I'll get me coat. . .:rain:

Bruce

 

[moandick]

The Nelson Touch

After three years of watching my £2000 worth of trailer sitting in the car park rotting for more than 300 days of each year we have bought a copy of Nelson's eye-patch, a new car and we are just about to have an A frame fitted.

Originally I took advice from all and sundry about the legality of the Trailer/A Frame and was told specifically by everybody that the trailer was the way to go. _ Legally I don't dispute that - but practically it has proved to be a damned nuisance!!!!

Having seen an A frame (fitted with a jockey wheel, for convenience of single-handed fitting to the coach) - arrive on site, get detached from the car before you could say boo to a goose - and then get safely stored away in a side locker until required next time - yessss - that is for me from now on.

Taking a gamble - yes maybe, breaking the law - yes maybe, common sense must at some time prevail and in my case I'm afraid it has been a bit later rather than sooner!

Dick

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Bruce

It is not ilegal to sell them, so the companies will not get done for selling them, many things are legal to sell but ilegal to use.... Just one example here, scroll to the bottom of the page....

Link Removed

There is only one set of very clear laws and they clearly show that Aframes are ilegal (other than for recovery) But besides that there is Braking which is not legal (in force, aplication and automatic reversing), also the fact that they cannot be reversed under control.

And do note what the national trailer association NOW say (at long last)

Fully comprehensive insurance works when an item is legal to use, insurance companies may change their tune if the claim is big enough, btw they knowingly collect premiums knowing that the cover is invalid, thats why they have this lovely big database of questions you have answered/asked, if you want to know how that works start a seperate thread, suffice to say insurance does not prove legality at all.

Hi Dick

"Gamble maybe", yes I can accept that, ilegal is definately not a maybe though....

 

[kijana]

Hi Dick
Glad you've seen the light - better late than never!

I can confirm how quick & easy it is to unhook an A-frame. It is because of this that reversing is not an issue for us. You may have already seen my post on another site regarding getting stuck in traffic while hooked up. If not, modify this link http://http://www.motorhomef**ts.com/ftopicp-237285.html to read it.

George old mate - you're flogging a dead horse I'm afraid. All the arguments don't become any more valid merely by repetition. Let's just leave folk to make up their own minds.

Bruce

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Bruce

sorry but you seemed to be implying that the rules are open to interpretation, they are not, they are extremely clear.

Cannot be reversed under control (ergo it is ilegal)

Cannot meet the automatic reversing regs (ergo it is ilegal)

Cannot meet the braking force regs (ergo it is ilegal)

It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way.

Can you show the part that you believe is open to interpretation? and why you believe that it is legal under you're interpretation?

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

Can I have your comments on this which I posted earlier as it does appear to still be un-amended and is a direct extract from European Directive 71/320/EEC and may go some way to answer some of the questions you have posed below,

Just for clarification I beleive one of the users of an "A" frame suggested earlier that he and his wife act as a team and when they need to reverse she I beleive sits in/on the trailer and controls its reverse ??

Using the above example could it be that "A" frames are legal if they are being used when a Drivers mate is present ??

This is not meant as a joke as I could easly, as I am sure can a number of other people just carry a writtern agreement between them and there spouse ?? or other member of there party that clearly states for the purpose of towing that person has been designated the Drivers mate ?? as this would appear to meet the prescribed method under 71/320

Earlier Post

Hi, Just found an interesting paragraph within 71/320/EEC which could affect the method of control of an "A" frame, the part that I found interesting was the "drivers mate"

Council Directive 71/320/EEC of 26 July 1971 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the braking devices of certain categories of motor vehicles and of their trailers
1.4. "Control"

"Control" means the part actuated directly by the driver (or, where appropriate, in the case of a trailer, the driver's mate) to supply to the transmission the energy required for braking or controlling it. This energy may be the muscular energy of the driver, or energy from another source controlled by the driver, or in appropriate cases the kinetic energy of a trailer, or a combination of these various kinds of energy

Question
could a drivers mate be used to CONTROL the "A" framed trailer ?? what do you think ???

Hi Bruce

sorry but you seemed to be implying that the rules are open to interpretation, they are not, they are extremely clear.

Cannot be reversed under control (ergo it is ilegal)

Cannot meet the automatic reversing regs (ergo it is ilegal)

Cannot meet the braking force regs (ergo it is ilegal)

It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way.

Can you show the part that you believe is open to interpretation? and why you believe that it is legal under you're interpretation?

 

[Road Runner]

The AA and RAC recover you with a single metal bar from one vehicle to other with recovered driver steering his vehicle.

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[Harley Dave]

Yeah - but this is in the special case of recovery of a disabled vehicle, not what is being discussed here, which, as I understand it, is towing a supplementary and presumably functional vehicle.

I suppose if the trailed vehicle was disabled somehow...

Cheers

Dave

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Dave

Logically nobody would fit A Frame gear just in case of Off chance of self recovery.... Judges are generally astute and would realise that no-one would fit expensive equipment for nothing, also the police are aware of the difference between recovery and transportation

Brian

Beyond a certain date reversing/braking must be automatic and under driver control for trailers, tractor/trailers are a different kettle of fish anyway.

 

[Enodreven]

Hi Dave

Brian

Beyond a certain date reversing/braking must be automatic and under driver control for trailers, tractor/trailers are a different kettle of fish anyway.

Hi, George

The paragraph that I have quoted above is to the best of my knowledge still operable within the regulation that you and others keep quoting from e.g. European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments.

I have read most of the amendments and i have previously posted the amendment that refers to the reverse braking, but none the less this paragraph appears to still be valid and from my reading of it the section you are referring to "under driver control" must be seen in the context of the way in which the regulation specifically describes "CONTROL" and as from what i am reading, the words "under drivers control" when it is in relationship to a trailer the drivers control is still seen to be being applied when using a drivers mate.

What do you think of that as a defense in-law ?? I would appreciate your input ?? and if we have a solicitor available there opinion would be welcome also ?

 

[fordy]

Hi Brian

I have not got a copy, but it contained a story of how someone Got away with it in Spain, basically they invoked the reciprical use law ie if legal in country of origin... But they claimed to be using it as a dolly for recovery, unfortunately the spanish court fell for it (that time), but would anyone actually convert and fit AFrame gear just for an off chance recovery, I think not..... Reality was it proved nothing other than the Spanish courts gullabilty on one occasion......

The rest refered to National trailer and towing association's (NTTA) inaccurate interpretation of the law (it was just plain wrong, after I contacted them they did amend it, not totally accurate, but better)

Breaking News update.......... having checked the NTTA website they have changed it (yet) again...

it now contains only one mistake (although perversely it corrects it in the following paragraph) here is the new FAQ answer, I have highlighted the wrong part first and then their "correction" from following paragraph...

I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100.

An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

At last the national trailer and towing body as caught up..........

So there has been a president set at least in Spain,, :thumb::thumb:

FORDY

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, Fordy

I'm not quiet sure I was refering to the same topic as George, I did post a link to the thread as i have shown below

Earlier Post that George is repling to
Hi,
Are any of you still members of the site that has a similar name to this, only i have been seaching for items regarding "A" frames and have come across a thread on the other site where a chap with the handle "Noel" has posted a letter that appears to come from one of the "A" frame manufacturers that seems to answer most of the questions regarding the legal issue.

Getting back to the point I can't post on that site, so would one of you mind checking with "Noel" if we could have a copy of the letter on hear and if he could point us to where on the web it can be found ??

Its on page 2 of the following link I have replaced the last word with ???? I'm sure you will understand.

Link Removed

Thanks

If you or anyone else can contact "Noel" and obtain a copy of the post I would appreciate it

So there has been a president set at least in Spain,, :thumb::thumb:

FORDY

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[pappajohn]

The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car".....

Hi George
whether legal or not the AIXAM still cannot be towed on an unbraked A frame, even though it weighs less than 750kg laden, as it is FITTED WITH BRAKES and as such, in the eyes of the law, IF BRAKES ARE FITTED THEN THEY MUST WORK.
though i'm sure you already know this.

john.

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Pappajohn

That was the point I was making in my post, that they say the Axiom is legal and then present evidence that it isnt (that I had to point out to them.....) For years I have said that no A framed car can be unbraked, if brakes are fitted they must work (this applies to cars & trailers and as been part of UK construction and use since the wheel was invented...)

Hi Fordy

No there is no precedent set, the spanish court was conned and only because they claimed it was for recovery ( an obvious lie... )

Hi Brian

Even if that part was applicable to Aframes, an Aframe would still be ilegal, it doesnt have Autoreverse, proper over run brakes to the required force.

here is the relevant quote

"2.2.2. Vehicles of category O 2.2.2.1. Trailers of category O1 need not be fitted with a service braking device ; however, if trailers of this category are equipped with a service braking device this must comply with the same requirements as those of category O2.

2.2.2.2. Every trailer of category O2 must be fitted with a service braking device either of the continuous or semi-continuous type or of the inertia (overrun) type. The latter type shall be authorised only for trailers other than semi-trailers."

For ref O1 is below is small trailer (KIND THAT DONT REQUIRE BRAKING, but if fitted it must work by the prescribed methods, which does not include drivers mate....) O2 is up to 3.75 tonne trailer. Note also semi trailer reference...

George

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

Are you adding the part regarding the drivers mate which I have highlighted in red, or is it actually as you have written ? printed in the regulation ? as I can't find that reference ?

You are quoting 2.2.2 what reference does that have to the type of "A" frame we have been talking about as the only ones that i have been mentioning already have the overrun device ?

2.2.2.2 as state above the only type of "A" frame I have been discussing is the type with an over-run device fitted, as for whether the braking force meets the requirements is still open for debate, as this answer i hope can be obtained from the document that i have asked about earlier and hopefully someone will obtain a copy. as from what i have read if the letter is actually from the proprietor of "A" frames they apparently have confirmed that there "A" frames braking meets of Even exceeds the requirements of the regulations, and If the letter is correct I really cannot see any reason to disbelieve there confirmation.

If however the letter above does cause a problem we could always revert to the vacuum pump on the servo, so which ever way we look at it the brakes appear to meet the requirements ? or can be made to do so ?

Now back to my specific point which is related to the only problem that still seems to remain with the legality of an "A" frame and that is the CONTROL while reversing, which as i have said above is or could be covered under the paragraph as I described above.

How does that sound

Hi Pappajohn

Hi Brian

Even if that part was applicable to Aframes, an Aframe would still be ilegal, it doesnt have Autoreverse, proper over run brakes to the required force.

here is the relevant quote

"2.2.2. Vehicles of category O 2.2.2.1. Trailers of category O1 need not be fitted with a service braking device ; however, if trailers of this category are equipped with a service braking device this must comply with the same requirements as those of category O2.

2.2.2.2. Every trailer of category O2 must be fitted with a service braking device either of the continuous or semi-continuous type or of the inertia (overrun) type. The latter type shall be authorised only for trailers other than semi-trailers."

For ref O1 is below is small trailer (KIND THAT DONT REQUIRE BRAKING, but if fitted it must work by the prescribed methods, which does not include drivers mate....) O2 is up to 3.75 tonne trailer. Note also semi trailer reference...

George

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

The regs quote are in "quotes".

A drivers mate is not a substitute for having over-run, autoreverse and being able to reverse under control, these are prescribed under the regs for O1 and O2 trailers, ie at no point is it an either situation, so you cannot replace any of the regs with a drivers mate.

If they claimed to meet or exceed the regs they are lying. btw all the sellors seem to claim legality but that doeasnt make it true.

BRAKE BUDDIES (can) exceed the regs, but are ilegal due to the transmission method employed

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

Please don't go down the line of everyone lies, they are just, if not more in a position to know what their manufactured item does than a bystander. Unless you or anyone else has actually carried out a test on the piece of equipment that can clearly show that what is being said dosen't in fact actually do that then please don't go down that route to justify your own position as that is no more a fact than the other.

As for the Drivers mate, this is part of the regulations not a figment of my imagination, so we aren't substituting anything it is already part of the same regulations, and it is the way in which the regulations should interpret the word "CONTROL"
so I really don't see the point you are trying top make,

The point you appear to be making is that the vehicle/trailer must be able to reverse under "CONTROL" the paragraph that i have posted above is from the same regulation or certainly from the regulation that you and others have quoted and that paragraph explains how they expect the word CONTROL to be used when used within the context of this regulation and as you will see if you read the post again it clearly states that when the word CONTROL is related to a trailer the use of a DRIVERS MATE can be taken as the control still exists, I hope I have explained this correctly

Please re-read the actual extract from the regulation that i have posted as this is verbatim direct from the regulation you have quoted ?

I have said before don't bring up Brake Buddies that isn't what we are talking about so please don't let us stray from what the main thrust of this whole disscussion has been about, and that as far as i am concerned is to try and make "A" frames better.

Hi Brian

The regs quote are in "quotes".

A drivers mate is not a substitute for having over-run, autoreverse and being able to reverse under control, these are prescribed under the regs for O1 and O2 trailers, ie at no point is it an either situation, so you cannot replace any of the regs with a drivers mate.

If they claimed to meet or exceed the regs they are lying. btw all the sellors seem to claim legality but that doeasnt make it true.

BRAKE BUDDIES (can) exceed the regs, but are ilegal due to the transmission method employed

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[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

My point is that a drivers mate cannot be used as a substitute for the items that are required according to the regs

ie over-run braking, autoreverse braking and the ability to reverse the trailer under control

Brake buddy was used as an example of partially meeting regs but still being tottaly ilegal to use.

I say again categorically that the sellor/manufacturer is lying if he claims that "their "A" frames braking meets or even exceeds the requirements of the regulations"

it cannot and does not, I saw the post by Noel and know that it is not true, it does not meet the regs at all..

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Control means control of a legally constructed trailer, no known A frame as yet been built that meets the legal requirements.

 

[Enodreven]

Hi, George

You are beyond me I give up, please don't contribute to any threads i post in future

Hi Brian

My point is that a drivers mate cannot be used as a substitute for the items that are required according to the regs

ie over-run braking, autoreverse braking and the ability to reverse the trailer under control

Brake buddy was used as an example of partially meeting regs but still being tottaly ilegal to use.

I say again categorically that the sellor/manufacturer is lying if he claims that "their "A" frames braking meets or even exceeds the requirements of the regulations"

it cannot and does not, I saw the post by Noel and know that it is not true, it does not meet the regs at all..

 

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Brian

Trying to find a better way to express it, the A frame being ilegally constructed cannot be made legal by the addition of a drivers mate.

The A frame trailer details posted by Noel did not meet or exceed eu directives and construction and use regulations, ergo the manufacturer was not telling the truth in claiming that it met or exceeded the regs.

One of the requirements of the regs is that

REQUIREMENTS FOR BRAKES 6.1. The manufacturer must make available to the technical service responsible for the tests, in addition to the brakes to be tested, drawings of the brakes showing the type, dimensions and material of the main parts, and the make and type of the linings. These drawings must indicate the surface area FRZ of the brake cylinders in the case of hydraulic brakes. The manufacturer must also indicate the maximum braking torque Mmax which is allowed, as well as the weight GBo mentioned in item 2.2.4.

so how do they do that with all the different braking set ups for the toad? this is the one thing that means even my system cannot be made to work, brakes are different for each toad (it is I suppose possible to do on a vehicle by vehicle basis BUT it would be prohibitively expensive)

 

[Harley Dave]

Brian's gone

Discussion (hopefully) over?

Thanks for your input George

Cheers

Dave

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