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GeorgeTelford
Deleted User
Just as PapaJohn says cannot be reversed under control.
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pappajohn
LIFE MEMBER
no probs roadrunner.
we'll have to arrange a meet then we can have a proper fight.
:thumb:
john
Road Runner
Free Member
Road Runner
Free Member
no probs roadrunner.
we'll have to arrange a meet then we can have a proper fight.
john
Great idea:thumb:
Not for the fight but just for the excuse to have a meet
pappajohn
LIFE MEMBER
my view is it CAN be reversed under control but you have no control of the front wheels, which in affect become skids, but as the "A" frame is attached to the front the front only goes were the "A"frame goes. the wheels cannot steer the car.
john.
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pappajohn
LIFE MEMBER
Good point Tony and those at the rally will see I use a jockey wheel with my A frame and manoeuvre the car around with it on detached from the RV and in fact had to do this at Eurotunnel on the way home from France when they expected me to do a U turn onto the trainoh:
just out of intrest, where does the jockey wheel fit as the "A" frame has up and down movement.
john.
pappajohn
LIFE MEMBER
oh: oh: :Blush: :Blush: DOH!!!you use the jockey wheel to stop the frame digging in.
oh:oh:
Road Runner
Free Member
Yes it has up and down movement and again need to be used gently and as level as possible except for hooking up (can do it single handed this way). Going to get a pneumatic tyred one to aid it's travel.
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GeorgeTelford
Deleted User
So say I was to attach a caravan to the back of a Transit, I could reverse that set-up for any distance around obsticals corners etc and on various cambers etc, this is what is meant be reversing under control, nobody does it for miles, but it can be done, could you do that with an A framed Car?
Sorry PapaJohn did not mean to misread/quote you, but I still really dont think its quite that simple.
I would love to see some A frame reversal Demo's at a meet (heh a new sport !!)
Sorry PapaJohn did not mean to misread/quote you, but I still really dont think its quite that simple.
I would love to see some A frame reversal Demo's at a meet (heh a new sport !!)
Road Runner
Free Member
I would love to see some A frame reversal Demo's at a meet (heh a new sport !!)
I would love to see you at a meet and I am sure I am not the only one that would welcome you and could even pitch up next to me
BTW:- I have alway said straight back, and doesn't work every time but i will reverse back
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GeorgeTelford
Deleted User
Hi John
I would love to meet you all (really) far easier to chew the fat, put the world to rights.
Reversing straight back hmmm, I could actually see me arguing a case in your favour there, if you removed doesnt work every time, I think we all know what under control is really meant to mean, but they dont really define what "under control means" of course we all know what it really means, but thats not the same thing in court.
PS thats why the right to remain silent is so important, if an officer had taken down "I have alway said straight back, and doesn't work every time but i will reverse back" this is an admission of lack of control and it would be a fair cop guv, Book him Danno Road traffic act 1997 sec 33 1/3
I would love to meet you all (really) far easier to chew the fat, put the world to rights.
Reversing straight back hmmm, I could actually see me arguing a case in your favour there, if you removed doesnt work every time, I think we all know what under control is really meant to mean, but they dont really define what "under control means" of course we all know what it really means, but thats not the same thing in court.
PS thats why the right to remain silent is so important, if an officer had taken down "I have alway said straight back, and doesn't work every time but i will reverse back" this is an admission of lack of control and it would be a fair cop guv, Book him Danno Road traffic act 1997 sec 33 1/3
Suzy
Funster
PS thats why the right to remain silent is so important, if an officer had taken down "I have alway said straight back, and doesn't work every time but i will reverse back" this is an admission of lack of control and it would be a fair cop guv, Book him Danno Road traffic act 1997 sec 33 1/3
Can't argue with that!
Road Runner
Free Member
Hi John
I would love to meet you all (really) far easier to chew the fat, put the world to rights.
Reversing straight back hmmm, I could actually see me arguing a case in your favour there, if you removed doesnt work every time, I think we all know what under control is really meant to mean, but they dont really define what "under control means" of course we all know what it really means, but thats not the same thing in court.
PS thats why the right to remain silent is so important, if an officer had taken down "I have alway said straight back, and doesn't work every time but i will reverse back" this is an admission of lack of control and it would be a fair cop guv, Book him Danno Road traffic act 1997 sec 33 1/3
But I have only ever said under certain conditions.
I am not saying it's safe, legal or anything else except possible for short straight back conditions
Reversing a caravan can be a nightmare to but had plenty of practise and solve all my issues by having a motor mover fitted (similar to detaching the car with A frame on and using it with a jockey wheel)
Anything towed comes with problems even HGVs (if you cant see my mirrors I cant see you
) jackknifing and so onoh:
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GeorgeTelford
Deleted User
Hi John
Yes they all have problems, BUT they are legal, the problem with A frames is that they are not, ps If you are ever asked by plod do not say anything, because you would be admitting guilt and they would not have to prove it, hung by your own petard (realistically they can get you on several other points, but why make it easier)
"Doc, I can't stop singing the green green grass of home." "That sounds like Tom Jones syndrome." "Is it common?" "It's not unusual."
Yes they all have problems, BUT they are legal, the problem with A frames is that they are not, ps If you are ever asked by plod do not say anything, because you would be admitting guilt and they would not have to prove it, hung by your own petard (realistically they can get you on several other points, but why make it easier)
"Doc, I can't stop singing the green green grass of home." "That sounds like Tom Jones syndrome." "Is it common?" "It's not unusual."
Road Runner
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Suzy
Funster
Are you sure John, we're only on post 105
pappajohn
LIFE MEMBER
Well that was fun 
i do like a good debate about something that no-one has a clue about, and i dont mean the good folks on here.
the law states..............but the law dont define the meaning of what it states so what chance have WE got.oh:
if a one legged man plays football, is he in control of the ball just 'cos its at his foot?:Confused:
its a good job we all dont think the same or there's no point in forums.
til next time,
john.
i do like a good debate about something that no-one has a clue about, and i dont mean the good folks on here.
the law states..............but the law dont define the meaning of what it states so what chance have WE got.
oh:if a one legged man plays football, is he in control of the ball just 'cos its at his foot?:Confused:
its a good job we all dont think the same or there's no point in forums.
til next time,
john.
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fordy
Deleted User
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GeorgeTelford
Deleted User
Hi Gary
as a bit of flannel it may work, but I wouldnt bank on it, note the wording "provided it meets the regs of the country of registration" unfortunately as this thread clearly shows an AFrame does not meet UK regs or EEC rules....
as a bit of flannel it may work, but I wouldnt bank on it, note the wording "provided it meets the regs of the country of registration" unfortunately as this thread clearly shows an AFrame does not meet UK regs or EEC rules....
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fordy
Deleted User
I know but it may be useful to some i know a few were looking for it ,,
FORDY
FORDY
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Road Runner
Free Member
Just remembered:Blush::Blush:
Over the last two years John Wickerson (not sure of the surname but he who is considered "The Man") has reviewed the fitting and using of the frames.
Nothing said about being illegal
Over the last two years John Wickerson (not sure of the surname but he who is considered "The Man") has reviewed the fitting and using of the frames.
Nothing said about being illegal
voxol51
Free Member
- Sep 26, 2007
- 34
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- Funster No
- 425
- MH
- low profile/garage
- Exp
- 5 years after 27 of tugging
Isn't this thread fun.
I spent my working life in the haulage business after leaving the R.N.
(Join the services and get a job for life? Not much call for torpedo operatives in civvy street!)
So I spent a few years driving articulated trucks - tractor trailer semi's.
I spent a few years driving a 4 wheeler truck towing a 4 wheel trailer - wagon and drag, truck and pup, call it what you will.
Our early 'drag' trailers had a wheel in each corner. The front axle was on a turntable attached to an A frame. Having 2 turning pivots - the front axle and the tow pin - they were bloomin' difficult to reverse until one learned the 'knack'
Our latter drag trailers were the newer, more favoured 2axles in the middle type, (as of twin axle caravans) and far easier than the old style to reverse.
They all had air brakes for 'road' use, and they all had mechanically operated hand brakes to hold them stationary whilst uncoupled.
I have just recently (with a Toyota Hi lux 4x4 recovery truck) used an A frame to tow a transit van.
It was possible, as stated, to gently reverse in a straight line.
It was possible with some grunt, and groaning of tyres, to force the tranny to go in a certain direction under reasonable control, but certainly putting strains and stresses on the tranny that even bob the builder couldn't do!
So, as stated, it can be done, whether legally or not. (Certainly more legal under recovery conditions rather than normal road use.)
All multi axled vehicles or trailers with fixed axles will suffer tyre scrub when turning, in a forward gear or in reverse.
Lorries have this allowed for in strength of construction.
Forget reversing for a minute. Cars are designed to have the steering wheel turn the wheels. Even being towed forward without a steering lock the towing vehicle forces the wheels to follow it, thus putting the front axle of the towed car under stresses it was not designed for.
A framing in this country is not illegal as has been suggested. Neither is it legal.
A test case has never been taken to court to set a pressident, and probably never will be unless a really serious accident involving an A frame takes place because it would be a mine field of legal cans of worms.
Now.
This doesn't help the auto reverse brake bits, but here's an idea to help the reversing under control side of things;
Some sort of 3point linkage as fitted to agricultural tractors with the actual A frame having the capability to lift the front wheels of the towed vehicle off the road whilst reversing...... something on the lines of the arm on a JCB.
Ok, please, no quotes on weights, technical specs, etc. I'll leave that to the engineering inventors amongst you.... or the Japanese with their ability to fit everything into a micro chip.
Personally, I ain't got the problems of a large RV with our Mclouis only being 22ft long, and have never found the need to tow a car. If I did want a car with me I'd go back to tugging a caravan.
Ok, if you've read this far, well done!
I'll get my tin hat and duck back behind the sand bags now.
Voxy.
I spent my working life in the haulage business after leaving the R.N.
(Join the services and get a job for life? Not much call for torpedo operatives in civvy street!)
So I spent a few years driving articulated trucks - tractor trailer semi's.
I spent a few years driving a 4 wheeler truck towing a 4 wheel trailer - wagon and drag, truck and pup, call it what you will.
Our early 'drag' trailers had a wheel in each corner. The front axle was on a turntable attached to an A frame. Having 2 turning pivots - the front axle and the tow pin - they were bloomin' difficult to reverse until one learned the 'knack'
Our latter drag trailers were the newer, more favoured 2axles in the middle type, (as of twin axle caravans) and far easier than the old style to reverse.
They all had air brakes for 'road' use, and they all had mechanically operated hand brakes to hold them stationary whilst uncoupled.
I have just recently (with a Toyota Hi lux 4x4 recovery truck) used an A frame to tow a transit van.
It was possible, as stated, to gently reverse in a straight line.
It was possible with some grunt, and groaning of tyres, to force the tranny to go in a certain direction under reasonable control, but certainly putting strains and stresses on the tranny that even bob the builder couldn't do!
So, as stated, it can be done, whether legally or not. (Certainly more legal under recovery conditions rather than normal road use.)
All multi axled vehicles or trailers with fixed axles will suffer tyre scrub when turning, in a forward gear or in reverse.
Lorries have this allowed for in strength of construction.
Forget reversing for a minute. Cars are designed to have the steering wheel turn the wheels. Even being towed forward without a steering lock the towing vehicle forces the wheels to follow it, thus putting the front axle of the towed car under stresses it was not designed for.
A framing in this country is not illegal as has been suggested. Neither is it legal.
A test case has never been taken to court to set a pressident, and probably never will be unless a really serious accident involving an A frame takes place because it would be a mine field of legal cans of worms.
Now.
This doesn't help the auto reverse brake bits, but here's an idea to help the reversing under control side of things;
Some sort of 3point linkage as fitted to agricultural tractors with the actual A frame having the capability to lift the front wheels of the towed vehicle off the road whilst reversing...... something on the lines of the arm on a JCB.
Ok, please, no quotes on weights, technical specs, etc. I'll leave that to the engineering inventors amongst you.... or the Japanese with their ability to fit everything into a micro chip.
Personally, I ain't got the problems of a large RV with our Mclouis only being 22ft long, and have never found the need to tow a car. If I did want a car with me I'd go back to tugging a caravan.
Ok, if you've read this far, well done!
I'll get my tin hat and duck back behind the sand bags now.
Voxy.
Road Runner
Free Member
see this magazine
Well reading April edition of "Motor Caravan" on page 109 has John Wickersham
One review done other elsewhere and racking my brain to where I saw it within the last year
Well reading April edition of "Motor Caravan" on page 109 has John Wickersham
One review done other elsewhere and racking my brain to where I saw it within the last year
OP
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Enodreven
Deleted User
Hi,
I don't know if I am explaining myself correctly, but a friend has told me that when he had his caravan, before he could reverse he had to get out and move a locking lever into position to stop the over-run device from operating the brakes. While I know this would have been a unit manufactured before 1998 the more interesting point he raised was that:-
He then went on to say that he remembers that someone made an After-Market add on that used a 12 volt solenoid to engage and disengage this locking device, but he cannot remember the name of the device or the makers.
Has anyone ever heard of this and know who made it, as if it exists then it may be a easy way to over come the reverse barking problem ??
Thanks
Brian
I don't know if I am explaining myself correctly, but a friend has told me that when he had his caravan, before he could reverse he had to get out and move a locking lever into position to stop the over-run device from operating the brakes. While I know this would have been a unit manufactured before 1998 the more interesting point he raised was that:-
He then went on to say that he remembers that someone made an After-Market add on that used a 12 volt solenoid to engage and disengage this locking device, but he cannot remember the name of the device or the makers.
Has anyone ever heard of this and know who made it, as if it exists then it may be a easy way to over come the reverse barking problem ??
Thanks
Brian
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Enodreven
Deleted User
Hi,
I have just had a reply regarding the subject above from a member of the www.ukcampsite.co.uk apparently the item described was called a "Marston Reverse Master" but that's all I can find, has anyone any more details?
From what my friend described it was a sprung loaded leaver that was mounted on the leading side of the over-run device which the solenoid pulled inwards when energised.
This leaver when pulled by the solenoid engaged under a hook type clip on the trailing side of the over-run device which would stop the over-run device compressing thus holding the brakes OFF for reversing.
Then when the solenoid was de-engergized the spring loaded leaver would be left under the spring tension until the car pulled forwards again pulling the over-run device open thus allowing the spring loaded leaver to move outwards away from trailing side clip and allowing the over-run device to work as normal,
The solenoid was apparently powered from the reversing light
Sounds quiet a simple device ?? could this be an answer to the automatic reverse braking problem ?
I have just had a reply regarding the subject above from a member of the www.ukcampsite.co.uk apparently the item described was called a "Marston Reverse Master" but that's all I can find, has anyone any more details?
From what my friend described it was a sprung loaded leaver that was mounted on the leading side of the over-run device which the solenoid pulled inwards when energised.
This leaver when pulled by the solenoid engaged under a hook type clip on the trailing side of the over-run device which would stop the over-run device compressing thus holding the brakes OFF for reversing.
Then when the solenoid was de-engergized the spring loaded leaver would be left under the spring tension until the car pulled forwards again pulling the over-run device open thus allowing the spring loaded leaver to move outwards away from trailing side clip and allowing the over-run device to work as normal,
The solenoid was apparently powered from the reversing light
Sounds quiet a simple device ?? could this be an answer to the automatic reverse braking problem ?
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GeorgeTelford
Deleted User
Hi Bryan
I have tried to imagine the device as described.
The power required to force the over run device apart would be beyond the reversing light circuits capabilities. (2X21 watt and very little spare power)
If it merely keeps the shaft locked open, its possible on the power available to do that, however if the vehicle was facing down hill it would not work as the shaft would never be in the open position to be locked out.
I can find no other reference to the device you mention on the internet, is the name right? Other point that bugs me is why would this device have been made in the first place? ie what was its purpose?
George
I have tried to imagine the device as described.
The power required to force the over run device apart would be beyond the reversing light circuits capabilities. (2X21 watt and very little spare power)
If it merely keeps the shaft locked open, its possible on the power available to do that, however if the vehicle was facing down hill it would not work as the shaft would never be in the open position to be locked out.
I can find no other reference to the device you mention on the internet, is the name right? Other point that bugs me is why would this device have been made in the first place? ie what was its purpose?
George
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Enodreven
Deleted User
Hi, George
Apparently the device was made, I assume, as a add-on to automate the manual reverse braking on a caravan prior to the introduction of the system that they use now e.g. the brake drum/shoe arrangement
The only link on the web I can find that refers to one of these devices is
http://www.extra.rdg.ac.uk/wkc1/DIY/caravan/msg00030.html
I appreciate your input and thoughts, just seemed like it may suit our requirements
Thanks
Brian
Apparently the device was made, I assume, as a add-on to automate the manual reverse braking on a caravan prior to the introduction of the system that they use now e.g. the brake drum/shoe arrangement
The only link on the web I can find that refers to one of these devices is
http://www.extra.rdg.ac.uk/wkc1/DIY/caravan/msg00030.html
I appreciate your input and thoughts, just seemed like it may suit our requirements
Thanks
Brian
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Enodreven
Deleted User
Hi, Just found an interesting paragraph within 71/320/EEC which could affect the method of control of an "A" frame, the part that I found interesting was the "drivers mate"
Council Directive 71/320/EEC of 26 July 1971 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the braking devices of certain categories of motor vehicles and of their trailers
1.4. "Control"
"Control" means the part actuated directly by the driver (or, where appropriate, in the case of a trailer, the driver's mate) to supply to the transmission the energy required for braking or controlling it. This energy may be the muscular energy of the driver, or energy from another source controlled by the driver, or in appropriate cases the kinetic energy of a trailer, or a combination of these various kinds of energy
Question
could a drivers mate be used to CONTROL the "A" framed trailer ?? what do you think ???
Council Directive 71/320/EEC of 26 July 1971 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the braking devices of certain categories of motor vehicles and of their trailers
1.4. "Control"
"Control" means the part actuated directly by the driver (or, where appropriate, in the case of a trailer, the driver's mate) to supply to the transmission the energy required for braking or controlling it. This energy may be the muscular energy of the driver, or energy from another source controlled by the driver, or in appropriate cases the kinetic energy of a trailer, or a combination of these various kinds of energy
Question
could a drivers mate be used to CONTROL the "A" framed trailer ?? what do you think ???
pappajohn
LIFE MEMBER
Road Runner
Free Member
I am 53 now but used to go away with my friends family in their caravan when i was boy 45 years ago and remember this U shaped attachment that would be hinged over the top of the brake plunger to stop it depressing when they reversed cancelling the plunger action of the brakes system. The caravan was a swift.
My Kia tows beautifully on the frame behind my RV and my Jeep Grand Cherokee.
My Kia tows beautifully on the frame behind my RV and my Jeep Grand Cherokee.
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