How green is switching to an electric car?

[63720]

Basically for the Corsa E if you buy new (not exchanging a vehicle) it takes about 11 years to break even and with current energy pricing the difference is between 7p per mile for electric and 17p for petrol, they did talk about other scenarios such as selling your existing car or leasing but in each case its x years before you break even

Perhaps in comparison by 11 years the bev may need a new battery, like a laptop or a phone of the same age, while the ice will need a tank of fuel. A better comparison possibly won't be available untill both cars are at the end of their life.

 

[Coolcats]

Perhaps in comparison by 11 years the bev may need a new battery, like a laptop or a phone of the same age, while the ice will need a tank of fuel. A better comparison possibly won't be available untill both cars are at the end of their life.

I don't disagree with you I think the program was looking at investing in new looking back retrospectively could show a different story

 

[RandallC]

Absolutely. I mean, what have the future generations ever done for us?

I gave a Funny,,,,,,, BUT

then thought, how would we know?

If time travel was possible in years to come, would you let that be known now, as it would change the future.

Sorry just read Eons by Greg Bear, more scary is Blood Music by the same author.

 

[Jamesh]

Try 1000 the size and youll get closer

and your point is ?

size matters we all know thats true....

we could go on forever, if you are going to throw stones be white .
So because your phone is small, then no kids were involved?
I just dont understand your reasoning, and by the looks of it, neither do you

Because our batteries are causing those kids to dig up that stuff for the sake of westerners to look green.

Of course I'm not 100% inocent having a smart phone, but I'm not causing child labour x1000 for the sake of environmental signaling....

 

[Coolcats]

Oh, I thought you meant that leasing a new EV would take years to beat leasing a new ICE car.

What you mean is that leasing a brand new EV car costs more than keeping an old banger you already own. Who would have thought?

Although even there, with sufficient mileage the new lease may actually be cheaper. Bangernomics relies to some extent on luck. High maintenance costs and frequent wholesale replacements are just as likely as picking that golden car that keeps on going.

No I don't mean that go listen to the Greg Foot program I cut out most of the blurb and just listen listen to for a couple of minuets you may find your EV is not as cost efficient as you think.......but hen again why would you want to do that?

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[Coolcats]

.

 

[cyberyacht]

Don't keep changing stuff that ain't broke whether it be car, phone, furniture TV. Anything new is a polluter to some degree.

 

[Langtoftlad]

you dont have a phone or pc or many other lithium cobalt powered appliances then. Never get on a plane do you or use power.
the very PC you are using uses the same stuff you are talking about
people in glass houses spring to mind.

I do - but I claim no "green" credentials...
Plus my gadgetry is really really old technology-wise

 

[Guigsy]

Don't keep changing stuff that ain't broke whether it be car, phone, furniture TV. Anything new is a polluter to some degree.

True in the short term. But if the new item is significantly more efficient, it might have used significantly less resources after not very long.

If you've got a 100w incandescent bulb or any of those 60w halogen downlighters that you leave on a few hours per day, you could swap to an LED equivalent and get monetary payback in a few months. And it wouldn't take long to cover the energy used to make the new one either.

 

[Langtoftlad]

True in the short term. But if the new item is significantly more efficient, it might have used significantly less resources after not very long.

If you've got a 100w incandescent bulb or any of those 60w halogen downlighters that you leave on a few hours per day, you could swap to an LED equivalent and get monetary payback in a few months. And it wouldn't take long to cover the energy used to make the new one either.

Energy use of the manufactured item will soon equalise...

But the payback equation is totally different if you include the environmental cost of manufacturing a new electric bulb purely to replace a less efficient but otherwise perfectly effective light bulb that has many years of useful life left in it.

More so for a car.

When I swopped from halogen to led, it made no economic, nor environmental sense... but it was worth doing because of the reduced demand on my leisure battery.

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[Guigsy]

If a home incandescent bulb was burning through 100w of electricity, much of which comes from non-renewable sources. If you use it regularly (i.e. not just the one in the loft), replacing it with an LED bulb before it blows could be considered a wise environmental choice.

The same can apply to cars. Even when you include the new resources that have to be dug up to make the battery and the energy to build the car, EVs use so much less fossil fuels than an ICE car during use, that the environmental payback period is somewhere between 20,000 and 70,000 miles. If you are expecting to use your car for longer than the payback period, then like the light bulb, it's better for the planet to swap it.

 

[Langtoftlad]

The same can apply to cars. Even when you include the new resources that have to be dug up to make the battery and the energy to build the car, EVs use so much less fossil fuels than an ICE car during use, that the environmental payback period is somewhere between 20,000 and 70,000 miles. If you are expecting to use your car for longer than the payback period, then like the light bulb, it's better for the planet to swap it.

I understand your logic - but find the payback period debatable
Notwithstanding the child labour or the mining pollution.

 

[Pablotti]

We just ordered a new Tesla, due to arrive in May/June. We were in the market for a new car anyway and planned to buy new… we looked a few different vehicles, and very nearly pulled the trigger on a diesel guzzler, but in the end the Tesla won.

It was fairly expensive. However, the other car we were looking at attracted nearly 4.5k in road fund licence over the first 5 years, plus the cost of fuel. The clincher though was that I could buy it through my company with a 100% capital allowance given on full electric cars. That means the cost of the car was tax deductible saving me nearly 20%.

 

[Langtoftlad]

We just ordered a new Tesla, due to arrive in May/June. We were in the market for a new car anyway and planned to buy new… we looked a few different vehicles, and very nearly pulled the trigger on a diesel guzzler, but in the end the Tesla won.

It was fairly expensive. However, the other car we were looking at attracted nearly 4.5k in road fund licence over the first 5 years, plus the cost of fuel. The clincher though was that I could buy it through my company with a 100% capital allowance on full electric cara. That means the cost of the car was tax deductible saving me nearly 20%.

All well & good - but the incentives & tax benefits don't reflect the true cost of the car.
Would you have bought it without?

 

[Coolcats]

All well & good - but the incentives & tax benefits don't reflect the true cost of the car.
Would you have bought it without?

Well said and good question

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[Langtoftlad]

Well said and good question

And, it's not a criticism
Just curiosity.

 

[Pablotti]

And, it's not a criticism
Just curiosity.

None taken!

Overall, I’d say I felt more comfortable buying electric than an ICE car. Sure, they have an environmental impact too, but on balance I’m happier with electric. It wasn’t all about cost for us, but the tax incentives made the decision easier for sure.

 

[Langtoftlad]

None taken!

Overall, I’d say I felt more comfortable buying electric than an ICE car. Sure, they have an environmental impact too, but on balance I’m happier with electric. It wasn’t all about cost for us, but the tax incentives made the decision easier for sure.

If you're buying anyway, then the environmental arguments are undoubtedly more finely balanced...
Though the car you have is overall far more 'green' than any car you replace it with.

I'm not bothered about the miniscule green credentials of any private vehicle... although the child labour is an issue.

It'll be interesting if electric actually suits your real world usage as opposed anticipated and if you have to make any changes.

Meanwhile, I hope you enjoy your new car and the contribution my tax has made towards its purchase .

 

[Pablotti]

Meanwhile, I hope you enjoy your new car and the contribution my tax has made towards its purchase .

Ha, thank you. We pay plenty of corporation tax, and employers NI, and personal income tax, but we also take advantage of tax efficient opportunities and incentives when appropriate. Even so, I’m sure your contribution helped and I’m most grateful!

 

[Steve and Denise]

I must admit that giving the government over £1 in every litre of fuel for them to waste on pointless things does not sit well with me, so hybrid it may be for the moment

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[Tombola]

I do - but I claim no "green" credentials...
Plus my gadgetry is really really old technology-wise

OH, thats ok then, the child labour doesnt matter if you dont claim to be green, Im with you now?
Like I said, glass houses.

you are contributing to it, end of.

Also, on serious note, of course child labour "forced" is terrible, but child labour inder the right conditions and in the right countries is absolutley welcomed, as its a means of income for many familes to drag them a tiny step out of the gutter and feel worthy.
All depends what countries at what age you are classed as a child, some countries you are classed as virtually an adult at 11-12.
I mean jeez some countries even have the age of consent at 11-12.
Its there ideals against yours and mine.

Ive been to Khayelitsha and Joe Slovo and seen how some 10 year olds are working for textile reclaimation companies.

Mr big buys up all Nike?adidas, you name it clothing that is damaged or the logos are not sewn straight etc etc.
the kids spend all day unpicking logos, re stitching, removing labels adding buttons, and generally being a slave for the mr big. It was £3.00 per day, and the fingers and elbows where they leant to do it day after day under the corrugated iron gantry, were red raw, even though they had foam etc to lean on.
Now to you and me, this is bad news, but I soon learned that Gi Gi (one of the girls I was dealing with ) was proud to be working and earning for the family. They make money where ever and however they can, and could afford a share of a battery and solar with others.

They had our clothes from us, and all sorts they could scavenge, they even asked one of our team for some of his spare contact lenses...she reckoned they could sell ???? lol....
but they were happy to be working and earning at 10, and 12. there were far younger doing similar.

 

[Tombola]

Because our batteries are causing those kids to dig up that stuff for the sake of westerners to look green.

Of course I'm not 100% inocent having a smart phone, but I'm not causing child labour x1000 for the sake of environmental signaling....

Yes our batteries are, at least you used the word "our" this time

do you know there is more lilthium around the world in phone batteries and laptops than anywhere else. (soon to be recycled many times over btw)

you should all be ashamed

'your not as bad as anyone else cos you only have a phone a pc etc etc , best Ive heard all week that one. It could still have been dug up by little kwambei.
"Oh but I onlly had a little piece of it miss, its not me" ....you are 100% part of the problem just like anyone else.

OH no mlud, you cant do me for murder I only used 1 bullet.

The only way you would be as white as what you tried to say, is if they dug 2 piles, one special pile just for phones, and has to be dug by machines and adults.

and one pile for the EV owning a**holes who are obvioulsy causing all this...(in your head) dug by kwambei and his mates.

Because our batteries are causing those kids to dig up that stuff for the sake of westerners to look green.

And to correct you on that one, it isnt you and me buying batteries that is causing some kids to be earning a living (rightly or wrongly) it is the slave drivers and trade that are using them as cheap labour, instead of using proper adults, machines and facilities, which of course would push the price up then in turn put the cost of your product up, and we would all be up in arms about the cost in the west, where most are being oblivious to the fact kids were used in the first place, and where some dont even care.

Blaming 1 section of society for something almost everyone could be in part responsible for is hypocritical.

 

[Coolcats]

Yes our batteries are, at least you used the word "our" this time

do you know there is more lilthium around the world in phone batteries and laptops than anywhere else. (soon to be recycled many times over btw)

you should all be ashamed

'your not as bad as anyone else cos you only have a phone a pc etc etc , best Ive heard all week that one. It could still have been dug up by little kwambei.
"Oh but I onlly had a little piece of it miss, its not me" ....you are 100% part of the problem just like anyone else.

OH no mlud, you cant do me for murder I only used 1 bullet.

The only way you would be as white as what you tried to say, is if they dug 2 piles, one special pile just for phones, and has to be dug by machines and adults.

and one pile for the EV owning a**holes who are obvioulsy causing all this...(in your head) dug by kwambei and his mates.


And to correct you on that one, it isnt you and me buying batteries that is causing some kids to be earning a living (rightly or wrongly) it is the slave drivers and trade that are using them as cheap labour, instead of using proper adults, machines and facilities, which of course would push the price up then in turn put the cost of your product up, and we would all be up in arms about the cost in the west, where most are being oblivious to the fact kids were used in the first place, and where some dont even care.

Blaming 1 section of society for something almost everyone could be in part responsible for is hypocritical.

Agreed we are all part of the problem, we can if we choose all be part of the solution if we can, its about where and how we spend our £1 One example is Coffee you can go to the supermarket and buy your coffee beans for around £3 for 250g but you can also choose to spend more on ethically sourced Beans where there is a relationship between the roaster and the Farm but these will cost more between £7-£9 which sounds a lot but still equates to about 16p per shot which is a lot cheaper than the milky coffee flavoured soup from some of the main outlets (£2.75+). Then where do you buy your clothes is it the cheapest ones you can find or do you see out ethical manufactures. etc etc etc

Then how long do you keep your goods for, do you swap your Mobile out every 2-3 years or do you keep it until it doesn't work anymore then how do you dispose of it? Some manufactures of IT goods have reasonable recycling programs you new device may have X% of rare materials from recycling or recycled glass aluminium and tin.

Its not easy to do the above and seek out and engage with ethical buying and use along with repurpose and recycle but we can all have a go at doing this as eventually where we spend our £1 could help to end slave labour........I know its a dream but one can live in hope.

One last thing a child is just that a child they should be able to grow up in safe secure environments not having to worry about working in the supply chain for our copy lifestyles.

 

[joe and sue]

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We just ordered a new Tesla, due to arrive in May/June. We were in the market for a new car anyway and planned to buy new… we looked a few different vehicles, and very nearly pulled the trigger on a diesel guzzler, but in the end the Tesla won.

It was fairly expensive. However, the other car we were looking at attracted nearly 4.5k in road fund licence over the first 5 years, plus the cost of fuel. The clincher though was that I could buy it through my company with a 100% capital allowance given on full electric cars. That means the cost of the car was tax deductible saving me nearly 20%.

Which is exactly my point long ago about most EV 's being company owned cars, perhaps if us ordinary working people got the same incentives more of us would do the same,!

 

[63720]

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Which is exactly my point long ago about most EV 's being company owned cars, perhaps if us ordinary working people got the same incentives more of us would do the same,!

Agreed. We are encouraged to spend a lot to gain a little. If the government discounted the cost of EVs to the same as ice cars then I would be tempted. In the last 12 months I've decided to not install a heat pump for my home and not buy a Tesla so I've saved c£60,000. .

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[Jamesh]

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Which is exactly my point long ago about most EV 's being company owned cars, perhaps if us ordinary working people got the same incentives more of us would do the same,!

Electric cars are a massive tax relief for the middle class. Those who can afford them get reduced tax on motoring for most of a decade...

Those on lowest incomes have no option but to pay excessive tax on fuel. Esp those in caring roles who go house to house and cannot easily charge patients more.

Is that fair just so we can appear green and offshore our pollution elsewhere.

Wind cannot be making much today and solar not much better at this time of year.

I wonder how efficient electricity production of gas / oil is from crude to car compared to petrol/ diesel from crude to car??

Having said that our next car will probably be electric.....

 

[Steve and Denise]

instead of using proper adults, machines,and surely using machines is not being very green

 

[Jillytots]

I'm switching to a hybrid plug in phev car.
In the vain hope of occasionally getting some free electric miles

 

[L' Hobo]

I am going to stay out of this because I do not know enough about the subject BUT, while sitting, as a 'Consultant', on a Council Transport Committee 10+yrs ago.
I do remember reading an official report from Transport 'Experts' stating that, with the amount of energy that would be used destroying the old ICE vehicles and the extra energy needed to manufacture millions of new vehicles and building the infrastructure needed to service ALL these new vehicles. The projected break even point, before benefit, would be approx. 20yrs by which time there would be other, unforeseen extra costs and considerations??

This could only, at that time, have been a guesstimate BUT a 'guesstimate' made by experts in that field?

 

[SpeedyDux]

On the narrow tangential point regarding batteries, in the smartphone marketplace I can only find one make that is designed so that users can change batteries and other modules: Fairfone.

EV manufacturers have adopted proprietary batteries that give them an effective monopoly on end-of-life replacement at vast cost. Presumably to encourage owners to scrap the EV as beyond economic repair, and buy another new one. It would seem sensible for legislators to force the EV manufacturers to make EVs more like Trigger's Broom, enabling them to have a longer economic life. Hopefully someone will bring into the market the Fairfone equivalent of a mass market EV but I am not optimistic.

Meanwhile I am going to carry on driving the hybrid for the foreseeable future. Low annual mileage (we walk a lot) and 66 mpg overall still works out cheaper for us than any current EV. The premium cost of EVs would need to change drastically to tempt me.

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