Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

[tonyidle]

If France has in place legislation like Spain does then it's illegal to use an A frame as it is in Spain.

It is entirely possible to reverse a mechanically set up A frame equipped car I know this as I have one and can do. Do you ? Yes it's tricky but entirely possible if one takes the time to practice. I mean we all have to learn ?

Anyone who has towed a goods trailer fully partially or empty will agree that a car on an A frame with a wheel at each corner is far far more stable. Fact.

If I have to point out again that unless legislation is in place to stop regulate or ban the use of A frames is in place it is entirely legal by default just like millions of things we can do. This is NOT tolerance it is because it's absolutely fine and perfectly legal to do so there is no grey area.

The users of A frames are defending against a number of folk who see fit to offer complete rubbish every time the subject comes up saying the same crap time and time again. Frankly it's sickening but perhaps they have such boring lives it entertains.

As for being unfair that's just daft. Hissed off yes and to the point where my tenure in motor homing is currently untenable.

This is the UK definitive advice including that on the need to be able to reverse:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

I have reversed a caravan with no auto reverse system (at one time they were all like that unless you left the car to apply a lock) and yes it is possible but only just and only under ideal circumstances. Not every time, not when you need to most, not on a pot-holed road, not uphill, not on grass, etc. Stability? It's hard to improve on the perfection offered by a single axle car trailer behind a motorhome but maybe a car with unsteered front wheels reliant on caster to keep it in line is better. I don't know. Neither do I know why I continue this discussion - it has been done to death and I still don't really understand the disagreement with the stuff I came up with in the last post. It was factual (with the possible exception of my use of one word) and doesn't disagree with any official information on the subject.

 

[Tootles]

It seems that to transport a car, you need a Bailey Approach. They are built using alu-tech construction and Gorilla Glue. here's a picture of testing using a caravan.

You can then travel the highways and byways of stupid countries without fear of being pulled by the police, or of having to grease their palms.

 

[tonyidle]

It seems that to transport a car, you need a Bailey Approach. They are built using alu-tech construction and Gorilla Glue. here's a picture of testing using a caravan.


View attachment 182964

You can then travel the highways and byways of stupid countries without fear of being pulled by the police, or of having to grease their palms.

That's just silly. Where does he carry the ramps?

 

[Tootles]

That's just silly. Where does he carry the ramps?

Good point.........

 

[SpeedyDux]

Why is it impossible to reverse without leaving the drivers seat ? That is entirely Wrong.

Roughly summarised well your right there you say the A frame is authorised but that is a completely INVALID point as what is NOT deemed illegal by legislation by default is legal.

It may be undesireable unpleasant even to stand on a street corner here or in Europe scratching yer nagers or picking your snout but it ain't illegal.

Why oh why do so many make stupid statements on subjects they clearly know bugger all about ?

Firstly I would like to make clear that I am not against the use of A-frames. They are a useful accessory and I am not questioning their safe use. The question is whether their use on public roads is legal or illegal in France. The text that I found on the web, and pasted above, is not an extract from French legislation as such but a FAQ explanation which I believe was drafted by some French camping caristes. I was trying to be helpful.

You said "what is NOT deemed illegal by legislation by default is legal." While that proposition may be valid to some extent in England, my understanding is that the French legal system generally adopts the contrary principle; that something must be authorised by legislation in order to be legal in France. That is not to say that there are some French laws that will not be enforced such as the one that requires carrying breathalysers.

If you are prepared to rely on use of an A-frame being tolerated, which could well be the attitude of most Gendarmes and Police you might come across on your travels, as reported by quite a few Funsters, that's a decision you are free to take. The OP put this thread up to let us know the warning he received. That also seems fair enough. What you are not going to get here is a guarantee that you won't be stopped by a stroppy Gendarme who wants to pick on a tourist with a GB plate. Having read their webpage, where in my opinion they seem still unable to get a completely authoritative legal rubber stamp for the use of their product in the UK, I don't think suppliers like Caratow can give absolute reassurance about the legality of their use in France and Germany even if they have buyers in those countries. Good luck trying to convince that Gendarme that Caratow are right and he is wrong.

Whether you decide to take your A-frame to France boils down to how risk-averse you are. You can weigh up all the information and opinions on this forum, but it isn't very helpful or amicable to dismiss some of them as simply stupid or negative. If you want certainty that you won't be stopped, a trailer seems to be the better solution, as has been helpfully suggested.

Anyway, I'm quitting this thread. I could carry on researching the laws and Codes in France because this is quite an interesting subject, but you have changed my mind and I will amuse myself by reading gassing anecdotes instead, yay!

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[moulin 87]

, that I have to change my UK driving licence for a French one now that I live in France - as an EU citizen with an EU driving licence this isn't true and I now carry a printout from the French government web site that explains that.

Once you commit an offence that requires points to be put on your licence, then you would be required to apply for a French licence so the points can be applied..

 

[tacr2man]

"I have been told, for example, that I have to change my UK driving licence for a French one now that I live in France - as an EU citizen with an EU driving licence this isn't true and I now carry a printout from the French government web site that explains that. (No idea if this what will happen post brexit, but then neither does anyone else!)"

How was DVLA with you having a french address on your british driving licence ?

 

[moulin 87]

"I have been told, for example, that I have to change my UK driving licence for a French one now that I live in France - as an EU citizen with an EU driving licence this isn't true and I now carry a printout from the French government web site that explains that. (No idea if this what will happen post brexit, but then neither does anyone else!)"

How was DVLA with you having a french address on your british driving licence ?

Special agreement/dispensation to keep a UK address on it...

 

[LuckyLuke]

Special agreement/dispensation to keep a UK address on it...

you keep your last uk address on it... and yes if I commit an endorsable offence then I have to get a French licence.

 

[Jim]

I find this bit of the Caratow' Legal doc quite funny.

This will not be sorted out until British and other European motorhomers get together and 'encourage' the Spanish to rethink what they are doing. This is where the clubs and magazines should organise a campaign, along with their European counterparts to work on the Spanish.
​

Encourage the Spanish.... .

I would guess it's probably less than 1 in 1000 Motorhomers who want to A Frame a car, I'm sure that if some Messiah appeared, capable of getting all the clubs and magazines to work together then there are far better things they could "campaign" for, other than asking other countries to allow us to break their laws And anyway, if this messiah was that good they shouldn't be wasted on this, they should be on our Brexit team

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[Charlie123]

Firstly I would like to make clear that I am not against the use of A-frames. They are a useful accessory and I am not questioning their safe use. The question is whether their use on public roads is legal or illegal in France. The text that I found on the web, and pasted above, is not an extract from French legislation as such but a FAQ explanation which I believe was drafted by some French camping caristes. I was trying to be helpful.

You said "what is NOT deemed illegal by legislation by default is legal." While that proposition may be valid to some extent in England, my understanding is that the French legal system generally adopts the contrary principle; that something must be authorised by legislation in order to be legal in France. That is not to say that there are some French laws that will not be enforced such as the one that requires carrying breathalysers.

If you are prepared to rely on use of an A-frame being tolerated, which could well be the attitude of most Gendarmes and Police you might come across on your travels, as reported by quite a few Funsters, that's a decision you are free to take. The OP put this thread up to let us know the warning he received. That also seems fair enough. What you are not going to get here is a guarantee that you won't be stopped by a stroppy Gendarme who wants to pick on a tourist with a GB plate. Having read their webpage, where in my opinion they seem still unable to get a completely authoritative legal rubber stamp for the use of their product in the UK, I don't think suppliers like Caratow can give absolute reassurance about the legality of their use in France and Germany even if they have buyers in those countries. Good luck trying to convince that Gendarme that Caratow are right and he is wrong.

Whether you decide to take your A-frame to France boils down to how risk-averse you are. You can weigh up all the information and opinions on this forum, but it isn't very helpful or amicable to dismiss some of them as simply stupid or negative. If you want certainty that you won't be stopped, a trailer seems to be the better solution, as has been helpfully suggested.

Anyway, I'm quitting this thread. I could carry on researching the laws and Codes in France because this is quite an interesting subject, but you have changed my mind and I will amuse myself by reading gassing anecdotes instead, yay![/QUOTE




Aw so your taking your ball with you then???

 

[Pia]

Please can you back this up with something official or is it just your opinion?

No it's not my opinion....wouldn't dream of expressing such a selfish opinion...I don't mind at all who parks where so long as consideration is shown for others. We read this somewhere just before we left for France for 3 months in the spring, we were a little surprised as we didn't know this .......our 'All the Aires in France' books are in the MH stored away from the house so can't check those. I'm always grateful for alerts on here especially if it is likely to affect us but I always check those out and form my own opinion on the matter. I feel fairly certain that people on here try to be helpful rather than dictatorial about what should or shouldn't happen and I doubt that people willingly try to mislead others on here deliberately.

 

[Lafant]

But Motorway Aires have dedicated space for caravans etc. You mean the municipal or village aires?

 

[Speve]

..and nobody knows it all even those who believe they do and seek to put others down for daring to express something different

Not seeking to put you down but as you have said there are those that do just that. As we tow a trailer it's quite important as stated by @big map in an earlier post was unable to come up with anything and it would be good to have a directive or law from France stating this,as far as we are concerned we have never had a problem and use Aires regularly on our travels also seen plenty of French Motorhomes using them with trailers so we will contunue to do so until we see an official document on the subject stating we cant

 

[tacr2man]

You mean ' Brexiteers' , luckily all of them are safely your side of the channel, Thank the Lord... Lift the drawbridge... Flood the tunnel...

Both of these post 1st by Chris and this reply seem to be negative views that dont really add anything to this thread . JMHO

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[roncab]

We are presenily oa a aire MECHERS SUR GIRONDE a fench motorhome just this miute pulled in towing a smart car with a frame

 

[SuperMike]

It seems that to transport a car, you need a Bailey Approach. They are built using alu-tech construction and Gorilla Glue. here's a picture of testing using a caravan.

You can then travel the highways and byways of stupid countries without fear of being pulled by the police, or of having to grease their palms.

I am informed that the Spanish have stopped fining people who use A Frames. Apparently they have a more proactive type approach.

 

[Chris]

Both of these post 1st by Chris and this reply seem to be negative views that dont really add anything to this thread . JMHO

I was just trying to lighten the mood.

 

[tacr2man]

some info on aires

 

[tacr2man]

I was just trying to lighten the mood.

sorry my misunderstanding too subtle

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[jumartoo]

So the A Frame manufacturers want the Spanish to change one of their laws (it doesn't just cover A Frames they just so happen to fall into the bracket of towing laws) for a few motorhomers who want to use one

 

[moulin 87]

So the A Frame manufacturers want the Spanish to change one of their laws (it doesn't just cover A Frames they just so happen to fall into the bracket of towing laws) for a few motorhomers who want to use one

I'm sure it wasn't intended as a request to change the law, just an exemption for his particular 'A-Frame' so he can make more money...

 

[Wissel]

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but are A-frames actually dangerous?

Legality aside, also talking about the ones with proper braking systems.

I mean, have good A-frames, towed by owners that have taken what could be termed as sensible precautions, caused any accidents?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

it would be good to have a directive or law from France stating this,

I don't think that will happen. Remember that the French system of local and national government is different to ours.

As far as I understand it aires are not centrally regulated, they're under the control of the local Mairie in each place so if the mayor of a particular town or village wants to rigorously enforce the "motorhomes only" rules he can but equally if he wants to allow caravans, trailers or anything else that's up to him as well.

If the central government decided to try and interfere they'd likely be told very firmly to mind their own business by the Mairies

I'd guess that if anyone was interested enough to research it they'd discover that generally the rule is enforced in popular places where lots of motorhomes go and the space is needed but not at all in the less popular out of the way places.

 

[Pia]

Not seeking to put you down but as you have said there are those that do just that. As we tow a trailer it's quite important as stated by @big map in an earlier post was unable to come up with anything and it would be good to have a directive or law from France stating this,as far as we are concerned we have never had a problem and use Aires regularly on our travels also seen plenty of French Motorhomes using them with trailers so we will contunue to do so until we see an official document on the subject stating we cant

I didn't feel put down at all as I just passed on something we had read earlier in the year. During our trip in the spring we saw lots of folk in MH towing cars or trailers in Aires but apart from notice it we didn't comment on it and I probably wouldn't have mentioned it had the thread not come up on here.....I think the comments about towing the A frame were the ones I felt were unnecessarily harsh to those who expressed a different view. It does seem that there are areas where there are different views about right or wrong / legal or illegal and sometimes chatting about the risks can help one make a decision, in my view, so mentioning something one believes to be true is not inappropriate. I always research my concerns but am often grateful to find snippets of information on here which alert me to something I need to research.

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[Speve]

It does seem that there are areas where there are different views about right or wrong / legal or illegal and sometimes chatting about the risks can help one make a decision, in my view, so mentioning something one believes to be true is not inappro

Quite agree that's how we came to the decision to tow a trailer there's to much ambiguity about A frames.

 

[emjaiuk]

As long as it does not get personal, arguments being put down, agreed with or even torn to shreds is quite acceptable. That is what discussion is all about. Thats not the same as getting personal or putting someone down. If you see that then report it

As the forum owner do you not feel some responsibility for the accuracy of factual statements on here? As you said everybody has a right to express their own opinions, but when somebody posts statements like ,'it is illegal for motor homes towing trailers to use Aires' without a shred of evidence to corroborate it degrades the value of the forum as an information source. Whilst there are undoubtedly exceptions any regular aire user will know trailers are permitted in most Aires.

If people were encouraged to post their opinions, or even direct experiences as such, and not as absolute facts I' m sure discussions wouldn't get so heated


Malcolm

 

[Pia]

You're not supposed to use Aires in France if you are towing anything be it a car, caarvan or trailer.

,'it is illegal for motor homes towing trailers to use Aires' without a shred of evidence to corroborate it degrades the value of the forum as an information source. Whilst there are undoubtedly exceptions any regular aire user will know trailers are permitted in most Aires.

As you can see...you have misquoted what I said ........I never mentioned the word 'legal'. I'm not in a position to say what is legal or otherwise in France, I'm not a legal expert. Getting facts correct before making accusations is always a good idea

 

[Whitebirdyman]

We are presenily oa a aire MECHERS SUR GIRONDE a fench motorhome just this miute pulled in towing a smart car with a frame

A few days ago I was on the aire at St Jean d'Angely and the rules at the entrance specifically forbade the entry of trailers. On this trip I have stayed on a number of aires and not noticed that rule anywhere else and have seen several French motorhomes with trailers on aires. Some aires in the Camping Car Park group even allow caravans!

Some aires do state a maximum allowable length and you might struggle with that with a trailer even if they are not specifically forbidden.

 

[Speve]

Some aires do state a maximum allowable length and you might struggle with that with a trailer even if they are not specifically forbidden.

I think the answer is do as we do and thoroughly check that Aires you plan to use are firstly suitable to take the length of van and trailer and check the local rules applying to the aire when you get there,we've never had a problem in the time we have been towing a trailer we always try to be considerate of others that may want to stop, trying to use end parking places where usually the extra length can be accommodated.

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