Friendly but firm police caution re A frame in France

[Doctor Dave]

As I explain to my wife on several occasions . The clue is in the name classification of our vehicles MOTORHOME. Not to be confused with a Caravan.

Mine is a MOTOR CARAVAN - and I do tow a car on an A-frame!

Dave

 

[Deleted member 29692]

. The clue is in the name classification of our vehicles MOTORHOME.

No it isn't.

There's no such thing as a "Motorhome" in terms of official classifications.

As Dave says it's a Motor Caravan

 

[emjaiuk]

For us this means the end of our motorhoming days. Plain and simple.

We bought our van so my wife could travel with me in Europe. She can no longer travel by plane and we must be sure she has a bed that suits her. The MH fills as many of the criteria as is possible .

So if France are taking this stance then we can no longer travel. We were due to travel to France in 3 weeks time but now it seems it's not viable..

We're in France now and in two days we've seen three toads, two French and one English. FWIW Cara a Tow have a French distributor, and initially had a problem with the CT test due to the protruding brackets. They changed it to removable screw in eyes and no more problems. In our RV days we were stopped 3 times, twice for document checks, and once to explain how the A frame worked, because the policeman was thinking of getting one.

I really don't understand why some of the members on here have to be so negative. I for one am not in the slightest bit interested in their opinion. Nobody is forcing them to use one, and there are enough posts on the net to explain the pros and cons of using them if anyone is interested


Malcolm

 

[Charlie123]

As far as I have been able to discover it, the French FAQ on A-frames seems to be:

Est-il possible de tracter une voiture directement attelée au camping-car ?
Non, ce système homologué dans certains pays étrangers (Grande Bretagne, par exemple) n’est pas
autorisé en France
Commentaire
Le système d’accrochage de la flèche de traction sur la voiture nécessite une modification notoire de la
carrosserie du véhicule impliquant une homologation de la Drire
Dans la mesure où ce système de remorquage exige que son utilisateur intervienne sur le système de
freinage de la voiture à chaque installation, dans la mesure où il n’est pas possible de reculer sans avoir
à descendre de voiture pour débrayer le frein, il est totalement improbable qu’un ingénieur des mines
puisse donner son agrément pour cet accessoire, même s’il est homologué à l’étranger.

Roughly summarised, the A-frame system isn't authorised in France. (Therefore it is illegal to use an A-Frame on French roads.)
The commentary says that the key points are first, that the modifications to the body/structure of the Toad itself have not been homologated; and second, the fact that the Toad braking system must be re-connected every time the Toad is hitched, and impossibility of reversing unless the driver first gets out of the MH to disconnect the Toad braking system, means that it is totally improbable that the French Examiner could give official approval to this type of accessory even if it is approved in another country.

Unless that French FAQ is wrong this looks pretty conclusive.

Why is it impossible to reverse without leaving the drivers seat ? That is entirely Wrong.

Roughly summarised well your right there you say the A frame is authorised but that is a completely INVALID point as what is NOT deemed illegal by legislation by default is legal.

It may be undesireable unpleasant even to stand on a street corner here or in Europe scratching yer nagers or picking your snout but it ain't illegal.

Why oh why do so many make stupid statements on subjects they clearly know bugger all about ?

 

[Charlie123]

We're in France now and in two days we've seen three toads, two French and one English. FWIW Cara a Tow have a French distributor, and initially had a problem with the CT test due to the protruding brackets. They changed it to removable screw in eyes and no more problems. In our RV days we were stopped 3 times, twice for document checks, and once to explain how the A frame worked, because the policeman was thinking of getting one.

I really don't understand why some of the members on here have to be so negative. I for one am not in the slightest bit interested in their opinion. Nobody is forcing them to use one, and there are enough posts on the net to explain the pros and cons of using them if anyone is interested


Malcolm

Agree entirely Malcolm but this forum has a certain hardcore of negative thinking nosey folk who largely know bugger all.

There are more good nice friendly helpful individuals than there is idiots who love baiting and talking utter rubbish.

If it were not for the good people I would not remain a member here.

There's an unspoken rule where I come from.

Say summat nice or say nowt.

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[Charlie123]

It's also because the vehicle has been modified and the modification is not type approved. If you could get Smart or Toyota to add the tow parts to the front on both sides and then get the vehicle through all the relevant crash tests etc. Then you would get round that little bit.

A lot of Uk drivers do go to France with a Toad you just have to be aware that the Spanish / German Police don't approve of them and some of the French Police don't like them.

I have a letter from Toyota GB saying there is no more risk of damage or incident arising from fixing s reputable front towing system to the FRONT of the car than there is from fitting one to the REAR of the vehicle.

How many caravanners manage to tow without a tow bar which 99% of the time is fitted in the aftermarket ????

 

[Lafant]

To Charlie. We've used our A frame in France for six years without a problem. One year, we were even checked over by a gendarme at Dijon. He told us that we should carry documentation proving ownership of our rolling stock and sent us on our way.

So, I think it's partly luck of the draw. For us, we want to expand our horizons anyway, so have decided to get a trailer.

Risk it?

 

[big map]

You're not supposed to use Aires in France if you are towing anything be it a car, caarvan or trailer.

Is this legal law?

 

[Speve]

You're not supposed to use Aires in France if you are towing anything be it a car, caarvan or trailer.

Please can you back this up with something official or is it just your opinion?

 

[big map]

Please can you back this up with something official or is it just your opinion?

I've had a quiet day at work Alan so I did a bit of an internet trawl and I couldn't find anything from EU directives down to local by-laws. But I am happy to be disproved.

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[Speve]

Thanks Andrea it's as @Charlie says there are folk on here that make statements without checking the truth of it as far as I'm concerned trailer or A frame whatever suits you but don't criticise anyone for using either it's their choice.
Live and Let live

 

[Charlie123]

Mine is a MOTOR CARAVAN - and I do tow a car on an A-frame!

Dave

Mines a motor caravan but we might be wrong cos he's told his wife often and it is in the name !!

 

[Chris]

I think if you are stopped with an A frame in France you just need to communicate to the copper that he should really be looking for proper criminals/ terrorists rather than messing with your rig.

That's my advice anyway

 

[chaser]

What I do know about this , is that trailers in France are supposed to have their own reg number and be moted, don't know how this fits in.

 

[tonyidle]

Agree entirely Malcolm but this forum has a certain hardcore of negative thinking nosey folk who largely know bugger all.

There are more good nice friendly helpful individuals than there is idiots who love baiting and talking utter rubbish.

If it were not for the good people I would not remain a member here.

There's an unspoken rule where I come from.

Say summat nice or say nowt.

@Charlie
I think you're being a little unfair
There's evidence that towing a car using an A frame is not legal in both France and Spain
The UK has no view on them until a Court decides. Advice is that until that happens it's OK to use them
It is not possible to reverse with A frames using an overrun brake system unless the road is level or you are facing uphill
It is possible to reverse with an A frame system that uses an electronic / servo box inside the towed car
In either case it is impossible to reverse any distance or round a bend - castor doesnt work in reverse. I do not count the You Tube demo of a towed car being forced to reverse on opposite lock.
A toad might be more stable than a trailer but as the size of trailer used to carry a small car behind a motorhome is totally stable under all circumstances it is hard to prove.
All these points have been made many times throughout this thread. It isn't interfering or negative people trying to discourage the use of A frames. Rather it is the users of A frames trying to justify their use by arguing the legality or lack of policing of their use. Better by far to do your own thing and accept the consequences - if there are any.

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[bigtwin]

What I do know about this , is that trailers in France are supposed to have their own reg number and be moted, don't know how this fits in.

It doesn't.

Ian

 

[Ivory55]

What I do know about this , is that trailers in France are supposed to have their own reg number and be moted, don't know how this fits in.

Just another thing how it's different rules in parts of eu. Lorry trailer in uk does not have its own registration plate but in France they do.

 

[chaser]

Just another thing how it's different rules in parts of eu. Lorry trailer in uk does not have its own registration plate but in France they do.

Not only lorry trailers, smaller ones too.

 

[moulin 87]

What I do know about this , is that trailers in France are supposed to have their own reg number and be moted, don't know how this fits in.

Don't need MOT, if it is over 500kg Gross then it has to have its own registration document/number... Doesn't apply to visitors from the UK, ( for now)..

The issue in France will be forever this... People will take an A Frame to France either through ignorance or arrogance and 97% of the time will have no issue, 2% of the time perhaps will involve a discussion with a police officer who may or not fine you or insist you separate the vehicles. A blasted inconvenience but no more...

1% of the time it will be an accident, perhaps serious, perhaps you are not to blame, but whatever the circumstances you are shafted, all the correspondence from the dealer, all the good words of Toyota UK will be meaningless.. Involved in an accident in a combination not considered legal, bye bye holiday as a minimum...

 

[chaser]

I believe , all though I might be wrong on this, even caravans have to have their own reg.

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[moulin 87]

I believe , all though I might be wrong on this, even caravans have to have their own reg.

Yes, as they are above 500kgs..

 

[chaser]

Yes, as they are above 500kgs..

So that automatically puts caravans and trailers outside the French law if they wanted to be awkward.

 

[moulin 87]

So that automatically puts caravans and trailers outside the French law if they wanted to be awkward.

No, unless they are registered in France... What you can't do is tow a trailer/caravan with an English plate with a car registered in France with a French plate... Which in olden days was always a problem for expats who brought their old UK caravans with them but couldn't re register them in France because they couldn't a French CoC.

 

[Fantini]

Well I'd like to thank the original poster for bringing this to our attention. We're off to France next week and for the first time we are taking a car, but on a trailer. We have hired cars before which was Ok, but would prefer to have a car for the whole time. Will be using a combination of aires and sites which we know have plenty of space. Will have to see how we get on.

 

[Charlie123]

@Charlie
I think you're being a little unfair
There's evidence that towing a car using an A frame is not legal in both France and Spain
The UK has no view on them until a Court decides. Advice is that until that happens it's OK to use them
It is not possible to reverse with A frames using an overrun brake system unless the road is level or you are facing uphill
It is possible to reverse with an A frame system that uses an electronic / servo box inside the towed car
In either case it is impossible to reverse any distance or round a bend - castor doesnt work in reverse. I do not count the You Tube demo of a towed car being forced to reverse on opposite lock.
A toad might be more stable than a trailer but as the size of trailer used to carry a small car behind a motorhome is totally stable under all circumstances it is hard to prove.
All these points have been made many times throughout this thread. It isn't interfering or negative people trying to discourage the use of A frames. Rather it is the users of A frames trying to justify their use by arguing the legality or lack of policing of their use. Better by far to do your own thing and accept the consequences - if there are any.

If France has in place legislation like Spain does then it's illegal to use an A frame as it is in Spain.

It is entirely possible to reverse a mechanically set up A frame equipped car I know this as I have one and can do. Do you ? Yes it's tricky but entirely possible if one takes the time to practice. I mean we all have to learn ?

Anyone who has towed a goods trailer fully partially or empty will agree that a car on an A frame with a wheel at each corner is far far more stable. Fact.

If I have to point out again that unless legislation is in place to stop regulate or ban the use of A frames is in place it is entirely legal by default just like millions of things we can do. This is NOT tolerance it is because it's absolutely fine and perfectly legal to do so there is no grey area.

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[Chris]

Just avoid France.
They are miserable buggars anyway

 

[moulin 87]

Just avoid France.
They are miserable buggars anyway

You mean ' Brexiteers' , luckily all of them are safely your side of the channel, Thank the Lord... Lift the drawbridge... Flood the tunnel...

 

[LuckyLuke]

Quite a bit on the car a tow web site that explains their side of the confusion. Link Removed
I'm my experience French Gendarmes are usually but not always right and sometimes don't know the intricacies of EU law - much as with UK cops. I have been told, for example, that I have to change my UK driving licence for a French one now that I live in France - as an EU citizen with an EU driving licence this isn't true and I now carry a printout from the French government web site that explains that. (No idea if this what will happen post brexit, but then neither does anyone else!) Cops also get confused around whether a law applies to a vehicle from another EU state that is legal in that EU state is taken to another EU state where, if that vehicle were registered in that state, would not be legal - a simple example is UK style registration plates would not be legal on a French car, but they are legal on an English car visiting France. So that deals with the cops side of things - they are usually right but not 100% and it comes down to whether you want to argue the toss or not or take a fine...
Next issue - is an A frame legal in France - see here https://www.campingcar-bricoloisirs.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=15328 for a discussion on a French motorhome forum as to whether they are legal in France for French MH - general concensus is probably after 2015 but no one is 100% sure.
The only bit everyone seems 100% sure about is that they aren't legal in Spain...
So whether you drive with one in france (or in the Uk) for that matter comes down to how much risk you are personally happy to carry - as Moulin 87 said in a slightly different way.
Worst case scenario: You are involved in a serious accident and someone dies. Police say you were driving an illegal combination, your insurer walks away from you as you were driving an illegal combination and you end up facing compensation claims and prison sentences with no legal cover. Chances of this - low, and can be mitigated by getting written confirmation from your insurer that you are covered to drive an A frame in France..
Less serious you get fined and have to unhitch your A framed car and drive it back separately from your motorhome - more likely but less impact but still a pretty low chance of this happening...
Most likely scenario, you enjoy your holiday and never have an issue..

So only you know your personality and personal risk appetite; no-one can answer that for you.

You can mitigate risks by getting written statements from your insurer and the manufacturer and the installer stating that your system is legal and that you are covered. If any of the above three are unwilling to provide that assurance (especially the insurer) then I think that gives you a strong steer...

As an aside since looking out for MoHo I have seen a few with A-frames (mainly dutch, a few French) but it seems most of the French moho that I have seen towing use something similar to this https://www.bing.com/images/search?...ure&simid=607997152677922412&selectedIndex=30 which are tiny and could easily be parked on day in day out on someones drive if they didn't have space to accommodate both the car and the trailer in separate locations..

 

[klaatu]

You mean ' Brexiteers' , luckily all of them are safely your side of the channel, Thank the Lord... Lift the drawbridge... Flood the tunnel...

Hey, hold on, we're coming through (southwards) on Monday night, can you hold off for a bit? After that, flood away!

 

[Larrynwin]

Quite a bit on the car a tow web site that explains their side of the confusion. Link Removed
I'm my experience French Gendarmes are usually but not always right and sometimes don't know the intricacies of EU law - much as with UK cops. I have been told, for example, that I have to change my UK driving licence for a French one now that I live in France - as an EU citizen with an EU driving licence this isn't true and I now carry a printout from the French government web site that explains that. (No idea if this what will happen post brexit, but then neither does anyone else!) Cops also get confused around whether a law applies to a vehicle from another EU state that is legal in that EU state is taken to another EU state where, if that vehicle were registered in that state, would not be legal - a simple example is UK style registration plates would not be legal on a French car, but they are legal on an English car visiting France. So that deals with the cops side of things - they are usually right but not 100% and it comes down to whether you want to argue the toss or not or take a fine...
Next issue - is an A frame legal in France - see here https://www.campingcar-bricoloisirs.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=15328 for a discussion on a French motorhome forum as to whether they are legal in France for French MH - general concensus is probably after 2015 but no one is 100% sure.
The only bit everyone seems 100% sure about is that they aren't legal in Spain...
So whether you drive with one in france (or in the Uk) for that matter comes down to how much risk you are personally happy to carry - as Moulin 87 said in a slightly different way.
Worst case scenario: You are involved in a serious accident and someone dies. Police say you were driving an illegal combination, your insurer walks away from you as you were driving an illegal combination and you end up facing compensation claims and prison sentences with no legal cover. Chances of this - low, and can be mitigated by getting written confirmation from your insurer that you are covered to drive an A frame in France..
Less serious you get fined and have to unhitch your A framed car and drive it back separately from your motorhome - more likely but less impact but still a pretty low chance of this happening...
Most likely scenario, you enjoy your holiday and never have an issue..

So only you know your personality and personal risk appetite; no-one can answer that for you.

You can mitigate risks by getting written statements from your insurer and the manufacturer and the installer stating that your system is legal and that you are covered. If any of the above three are unwilling to provide that assurance (especially the insurer) then I think that gives you a strong steer...

As an aside since looking out for MoHo I have seen a few with A-frames (mainly dutch, a few French) but it seems most of the French moho that I have seen towing use something similar to this https://www.bing.com/images/search?...ure&simid=607997152677922412&selectedIndex=30 which are tiny and could easily be parked on day in day out on someones drive if they didn't have space to accommodate both the car and the trailer in separate locations..

Perhaps the sort of risk some drivers take on an almost daily basis when driving at 34mph ish in a 30 limit whether intentional or not.

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