French Visa Rejection

[The Wino]

I always believed that until a chinese bloke on one of the msm platforms explained that they get nothing in the way of tax breaks whatsoever nor have they ever done. He pointed out that they work hard & seven days a week.

Presumably a lot more difficult to employ people cash in hand in a country with id cards?

 

[AGT]

Al n Val, Stewartwebr

Apologies for asking more questions on a painful subject:

- during your previous visa period did you return to the UK and stamp in/out from a non French airport or ferry terminal? We have Amsterdam/Rotterdam stamps which will appear on the copy of our passport which we have to file and I am wondering whether to explain these non French stamps.
- did your itinerary which you filed include time in a Schengen country other than France? We haven’t done this as we genuinely have no idea where we will go at the time of our application.
- had you booked a return crossing at the end of your visa period? We haven’t included this in our previous two applications.

I am suspicious about the new French government. Barnier wanted Brexit to hurt and he oversaw the 90/180 period (and understood what that meant) while our negotiators agreed 180/360 for EU passport holders visiting the UK.

 

[Al n Val]

AGT

our itinerary only included France

We flew home for xmas and new year and our passports were stamped in Alicante and Leeds

We didn’t book a return crossing until we knew we were coming home and that was within the visa period

 

[AGT]

Thanks Al.

I am vexed for you. A like for like application does give you a legitimate expectation for consistent treatment. If there has been a change in policy you would have thought that TLS might have mentioned it at your interview. Despite all the criticism of TLS we found our interviewer last year very helpful on a technical question which we had. I hope you find a work around to continue holidaying in the sun.

Your treatment makes no sense to me unless there has been a change in policy. One of the purposes of the visa is tourism and, even if we are using free or inexpensive aires, motorhomers extend the tourist season and do treat themselves to more than the occasional meal out!

We have a house in Alpes Maritimes and might, on that basis, have a stronger argument for a visa. The visa has been very important to us as 90/180 goes so quickly and it’s only with the visa that we have been able to include lengthy trips in the ‘van from and around our base in France.

We aren’t planning to make our next application until February 2025 when hopefully the position will be a bit clearer.

 

[gus-lopez]

Presumably a lot more difficult to employ people cash in hand in a country with id cards?

no why would that be? Here there are actually 3 economies.
The legal one.
the 'black ' economy where it is cash in hand
the 'sort of black' economy whereby the legally self employed do the work but do not put it through the books. Nigh on impossible to catch as here in spain most jobs have a "minimum earnings amount" that you pay tax on.
I.e an electrician will be deemed to have a minimum income of 1500€ per month & that is what the tax would be based on & remember you are paying the tax regardless of whether you have an income.You cannot run a business at a 'loss' .they will shut you down. This is why you pay tax & NI even if you earn nothing & why self employed teacher's deregister at school year end so they don't have to pay 2 months NI without income.
Anyway back to the self employed.
So some pay the required minimum amount of tax based on this minimum earnings,1600€, the rest for many is cash work. If there is any suspicion about the work then it just gets put 'through the books'. .
some pay the minimum amount all there lives whilst a blind man can work out that expenditure is far in excess of income? Trouble is no one rarely looks.

I had a friend who was self emplyed engineer. Put is accounts in first month & accountant had a heart attack. " One for the taxman , three for you" was the only way he would do it.
I read an article some while back that if this could be stamped out the tax take would rise by around 40%.

When covid hit & even with businesses going under at record rates, the Murcian Hacienda ( tax office) was recording an increase in legally registered self employed, a tax & NI income 20% higher than in the previous 13 years & far more people legally employed.
All because the S/E & businesses found that help was only being given to those who were legal & who actually had the 'employee's ' on more than zero hour contracts. The other good thing to come from covid was gov.es making the 'zero hours' or '1hour/week' contracts unworkable by legally requiring employer's with anyone working to have them clock in & out every day. & for all the time cards to equate to the expenditure.

and he oversaw the 90/180 period (and understood what that meant) while our negotiators agreed 180/360 for EU passport holders visiting the UK.

Both of which were the status quo when in the EU so were just continued under the WA.

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[stewartwebr]

stewartwebr

do you mind me asking your ages, the reason i’m asking is this.

The friend we have who’s on his 4th visa has come into contact with 4 other couples who are all 70+ and all been refused , i’m wondering if there is something in this or if it’s just coincidence

We are both in our 50s I’m 56 and other half 59

 

[stewartwebr]

Al n Val, Stewartwebr

Apologies for asking more questions on a painful subject:

- during your previous visa period did you return to the UK and stamp in/out from a non French airport or ferry terminal? We have Amsterdam/Rotterdam stamps which will appear on the copy of our passport which we have to file and I am wondering whether to explain these non French stamps.
- did your itinerary which you filed include time in a Schengen country other than France? We haven’t done this as we genuinely have no idea where we will go at the time of our application.
- had you booked a return crossing at the end of your visa period? We haven’t included this in our previous two applications.

I am suspicious about the new French government. Barnier wanted Brexit to hurt and he oversaw the 90/180 period (and understood what that meant) while our negotiators agreed 180/360 for EU passport holders visiting the UK.

Our stamps clearly showed entry and exit within the visa period transiting through Calais
We made no mention in our plan of visiting any other country other than France. The plan was both written and pictorial showing stop offs and Aires we were planning in using, basically a big circle around France. It was the same plan as submitted last year for our successful application.
I attached a return booking showing going and returning

Interestingly, our friend, two couple both got rejection letters back on Friday. Both were successful last year. Looks like something fundamental has changed.

 

[DandJ]

I’m tempted to reapply but that won’t help our crossing on the 30th October to Spain for 90 days then the plan was up to France, but guess that won’t be happening

Our stamps clearly showed entry and exit within the visa period transiting through Calais
We made no mention in our plan of visiting any other country other than France. The plan was both written and pictorial showing stop offs and Aires we were planning in using, basically a big circle around France. It was the same plan as submitted last year for our successful application.
I attached a return booking showing going and returning

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick....I usually do.....but if those at the visa place read it the same way as I do...it appears that you enter France from Spain ?

 

[CAB96]

. Maybe book an Airbnb for the first week so there is a physical building address?

You could cancel it once the visa is through.

 

[Carpmart]

All good ideas above BUT the point is, the same application for several people on here was accepted and approved last year, this year, declined… Why is the question? What’s changed? What needs to be done differently in the application to get a positive outcome?

It effectively renders the process ineffective as criteria for approval have changed, yet applicants don’t know what these changes are, so can’t comply!

It must be incredibly frustrating for stewartwebr and Al n Val

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[Ridgeway]

Isn’t a visa something you apply for ? Meaning that the country has the right to say no, just because it can. I get my travel visas about once a month and due to the complexity i will only do it through an agency these days. They know the ins and outs of each countries requests that change every few months. When i was doing it myself and doing it to what I thought was a correct way i would a few times a year get rejected which in turn makes life much harder next time round. Once i switched to an agency (i use CIBT) I’ve never been rejected since.

I think the visa application process of most countries is more of an art than a science.

 

[lorger]

Sorry to hear your application was rejected, however I think Thailand will be a wonderful alternative. What happens with your ferry booking, can you move it or get a refund, or even sell it on?

 

[lebowski]

I have no idea when it comes to visas but from experience, french bureaucracy is unbelievable, truly a law unto themselves. I live in France and we have had many interactions with the different authorities here. I have had applications thrown out because a document from the UK mispelt my christian name (Johnathan rather than Jonathan!) and others with similar mistakes accepted. Sometimes it depends on who looks at the file, or even which way the wind was blowing! Often the person handling the application doesn't understand what they are looking at but their decision is final. If we have to visit anywhere official, we always take a huge folder with copies of everything they might need.
An appeal stands a very good chance of success with absolutely no changes in what you sent in! If the appeal isn't expensive and from your point of view, worthwhile, I would try again.

 

[barryd]

Just out of interest and kind of hypothetical but has anyone or does anyone know of any motorhomers that have just winged it since we left the EU and overstayed and if so what was the outcome? I remember before we left reading accounts of none EU citizens being caught and fined and in some cases up to £1000 but Ive not heard of a single motorhomer overstaying and getting into bother for it. Now that could be because nobody has done it or its just not been reported.

 

[The Wino]

no why would that be? Here there are actually 3 economies.
The legal one.
the 'black ' economy where it is cash in hand
the 'sort of black' economy whereby the legally self employed do the work but do not put it through the books. Nigh on impossible to catch as here in spain most jobs have a "minimum earnings amount" that you pay tax on.
I.e an electrician will be deemed to have a minimum income of 1500€ per month & that is what the tax would be based on & remember you are paying the tax regardless of whether you have an income.You cannot run a business at a 'loss' .they will shut you down. This is why you pay tax & NI even if you earn nothing & why self employed teacher's deregister at school year end so they don't have to pay 2 months NI without income.
Anyway back to the self employed.
So some pay the required minimum amount of tax based on this minimum earnings,1600€, the rest for many is cash work. If there is any suspicion about the work then it just gets put 'through the books'. .
some pay the minimum amount all there lives whilst a blind man can work out that expenditure is far in excess of income? Trouble is no one rarely looks.

I had a friend who was self emplyed engineer. Put is accounts in first month & accountant had a heart attack. " One for the taxman , three for you" was the only way he would do it.
I read an article some while back that if this could be stamped out the tax take would rise by around 40%.

When covid hit & even with businesses going under at record rates, the Murcian Hacienda ( tax office) was recording an increase in legally registered self employed, a tax & NI income 20% higher than in the previous 13 years & far more people legally employed.
All because the S/E & businesses found that help was only being given to those who were legal & who actually had the 'employee's ' on more than zero hour contracts. The other good thing to come from covid was gov.es making the 'zero hours' or '1hour/week' contracts unworkable by legally requiring employer's with anyone working to have them clock in & out every day. & for all the time cards to equate to the expenditure.

Both of which were the status quo when in the EU so were just continued under the WA.

I see tax being knowingly under declared as no different to benefit fraud so on that basis it sounds like they're a right dodgy bunch.

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[stewartwebr]

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick....I usually do.....but if those at the visa place read it the same way as I do...it appears that you enter France from Spain ?

We were going to Spain using our Schengen days, returning to the U.K. to attend an event then heading back to France using the visa. The application had no mention of the Spanish part as it had no bearing on the application. Sorry for confusing things by mention the Spain trip.
But as said the rejection changes everything, so off to Thailand and we shall still have our Schengen 90 days on our return.

 

[stewartwebr]

I have no idea when it comes to visas but from experience, french bureaucracy is unbelievable, truly a law unto themselves. I live in France and we have had many interactions with the different authorities here. I have had applications thrown out because a document from the UK mispelt my christian name (Johnathan rather than Jonathan!) and others with similar mistakes accepted. Sometimes it depends on who looks at the file, or even which way the wind was blowing! Often the person handling the application doesn't understand what they are looking at but their decision is final. If we have to visit anywhere official, we always take a huge folder with copies of everything they might need.
An appeal stands a very good chance of success with absolutely no changes in what you sent in! If the appeal isn't expensive and from your point of view, worthwhile, I would try again.

That’s very helpful, you jogged my memory. The member of staff at TLS whilst doing the paperwork mentioned the visa may take longer to come back as the French Embassy had lost a large number of staff over a very short period and many of the staff are very new so a bit slower. I wonder if this is where the issue lies, they are a new interpretation of the rules or applying them more rigidly.

 

[DandJ]

That’s very helpful, you jogged my memory. The member of staff at TLS whilst doing the paperwork mentioned the visa may take longer to come back as the French Embassy had lost a large number of staff over a very short period and many of the staff are very new so a bit slower. I wonder if this is where the issue lies, they are a new interpretation of the rules or applying them more rigidly.

Like Lebowski....we also live in France, we are here post B.... so have to apply each year for the first 5 yrs for a renewal of our TLS-TS visa. Last years went thru without issue. This year, mine came back with a likely refusal unless we get up to date Mutuelle Insurance (Top up health insurance). What the dimwit person at the local/departmental visa centre had read was the start date of our Mutuelle and failed to take into account that it is a rolling policy with no end. (Fortunately it wasn't a refusal/appeal, simply for us to point this out. I suspect he/she was a newbie and perhaps went and asked about it after my reply?) You obviously don't have this option but I do suspect your application has probably encountered someone who doesn't know what they're doing . France, cutting their nose off to spite their face? We see that day in day out. Enjoy Thailand by the way

 

[EuroTrotters]

I always believed that until a chinese bloke on one of the msm platforms explained that they get nothing in the way of tax breaks whatsoever nor have they ever done. He pointed out that they work hard & seven days a week.

My accountant in Spain told me they did !? Who knows.

I do think the guy on the checkout in Shanghai Bazzar Javea is a robot though. In the many years I’ve been going in, he is always behind the counter.

 

[stewartwebr]

Sorry to hear your application was rejected, however I think Thailand will be a wonderful alternative. What happens with your ferry booking, can you move it or get a refund, or even sell it on?

Luckily, we book a flexi crossing. We have 2 choices, cancel and get a 75% refund or reschedule for a later date. Shall deal with that tomorrow, last few days has been Thailand. Interestingly, putting the cost of flights to one side (we never turn right ) the cost of accommodation and travel I don’t think it shall be that different to doing the French touring.

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[Mr porky]

Luckily, we book a flexi crossing. We have 2 choices, cancel and get a 75% refund or reschedule for a later date. Shall deal with that tomorrow, last few days has been Thailand. Interestingly, putting the cost of flights to one side (we never turn right ) the cost of accommodation and travel I don’t think it shall be that different to doing the French touring.

I have spent a little time looking at costs for a 2 month visit to Asia as well. It's very disappointing that the French option is looking less likely. I'm watching the forum with interest.

 

[stewartwebr]

I have spent a little time looking at costs for a 2 month visit to Asia as well. It's very disappointing that the French option is looking less likely. I'm watching the forum with interest.

You can now stay in Thailand for 90 days. You are given a 60 day visa waiver on arrival and this can be extended by a further 30 days by visiting a local immigration office and paying a small fee. However, the challenge remains that to fulfil the requirements of the visa on arrival you must produce evidence of onward travel which some airlines assume to be the 60 days as the 30 day extension is not technically guaranteed and some airlines are asking to see proof to allow you to board.
One option is book your return within 60 days then change it, but that could be expensive and is not practical. So a get around is to book a single flight to Cambodia for $25 dollars within your 60 days and you have evidence of exit.

 

[Mr porky]

On the French visa how long from interviews to knowledge of confirm or deny of visa

 

[stewartwebr]

On the French visa how long from interviews to knowledge of confirm or deny of visa

You don’t get told of rejection, the TLScontact website updates through the process gates reaching “passport returned from consulate” and an email to collect your passport. When you collect it it’s handed over in the sealed blue envelope, if it contains a piece of paper that’s the rejection note, in French. We got ours back in 10 days including weekend. Last time it took 8 days.

 

[Al n Val]

Same here

first time was 10 days and the passports were returned to us by courier post

this time same time frame and no visa’s, tbh it really pee’d me off at first mainly due to the no apparent reason and only being able to appeal in French, taking minimum 60 days to get an answer and probable rejection again

Then not being able to apply again in a certain time frame which was as clear as mud

Basically a bit of a sham

But i’m over it now, just done Switzerland. Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium so France has lost my business

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[Mr porky]

Same here

first time was 10 days and the passports were returned to us by courier post

this time same time frame and no visa’s, tbh it really pee’d me off at first mainly due to the no apparent reason and only being able to appeal in French, taking minimum 60 days to get an answer and probable rejection again

Then not being able to apply again in a certain time frame which was as clear as mud

Basically a bit of a sham

But i’m over it now, just done Switzerland. Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium so France has lost my business

We still plan to apply but it's no great shakes if we do 2 months in Asia, this was our go to location before we bought the money pit called a motorhome.