French Lockdown

[olley]

Just because the strap didn't meet NHS spec doesn't mean they weren't fit for purpose.

 

[chaser]

What you're missing though is that the VAT and rates holidays are just a way to defer the cost, it is still payable with interest, also they still have to pay insurance, utilities etc even at a basic level. They may be putting the dosh in the bank now but at some point it will have to be paid out to cover the costs which haven't stopped. As for the 'staff' being family members, what's the problem with that,? They are still people who used to work and get a wage but now due to being closed don't get it from takings but from furlough instead, so I don't see how that is wrong?

I said right at the beginning it wasn't against the rules, but all that furlough money is going to the pub as they all live there, and if they are not selling anything why will they have to pay vat.
But the point was why do we have to feel sorry for them when they are far better off than they were before.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

Just because the strap didn't meet NHS spec doesn't mean they weren't fit for purpose.

Of course it does, if the strap fails or does not hold the mask satisfactorily, then they are not fit for purpose, the strap is essential in performing its function.
Don't forget these masks were for front line NHS workers with their lives at risk, it is essential the mask is fit for purpose.

 

[Rob Hammond]

That is true, but still no excuse for wasting public money, awarding contracts to companies for supply of PPE equipment who have never made PPE equipment.

I’d imagine councils and the NHS etc waste money all the time and that’s pre Covid ,most of them wouldn’t last 5 mins in the private sector but still the wanton waste goes on .

 

[MITHRANDIR]

I’d imagine councils and the NHS etc waste money all the time and that’s pre Covid ,most of them wouldn’t last 5 mins in the private sector but still the wanton waste goes on .

Quite true, i don't believe in waste is good anytime anywhere.
My wife ia an accountant by trade and was on audit years ago for a pharmaceutical company who supplied the NHS, she found one item that had been paid for by the NHS 3 times in error to the tune of over £13,000 and spoke to the NHS accounts department, about repayment of the overpayment, she was told that they did not have the facility to take any over payments back, and to the best of her knowledge it was never repaid!!!
And that was just one!!!

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[Minxy]

I said right at the beginning it wasn't against the rules, but all that furlough money is going to the pub as they all live there, and if they are not selling anything why will they have to pay vat.
But the point was why do we have to feel sorry for them when they are far better off than they were before.

They may have to pay vat if they have deferred what they owe from when they were open, which was allowed I believe (VAT isn't normally transferred immediately to the HMRC when something is sold at the till).

There are some who got a lot less on furlough than they used to earn due to the cap, and some who may get more but only if they have 'cheated' in some way - I believe the amount was 'up to' the cap dependent on their previous earnings, so if they didn't get earn the capped amount or more previously they shouldn't have got that whilst on furlough.

However, if they have 'cheated' then don't feel sorry for them, once they open up again they will no longer be furloughed and thus will have to earn their dosh again and get less for actually working. I don't feel sorry for anyone, I do have empathy for the 'genuine' ones who are losing out but unfortunately that's as much as I can offer.

 

[suavecarve]

Apart from the tenners, our local pub, all above board according to the rules, has had 30,000 handout, all the staff bar one are family, all drawing furlough, had a rates and vat holiday, not had to do a stroke of work, no electric bill, no cleaners, no nothing, just sit back and make more doing nothing, than they ever did working for it, and we are supposed to have sympathy for them.
Plus the money isn't going round anywhere, but straight in the bank, so missing out all your other trades.

I can put a shed load more trades into the scenario to ensure they get some money if you want. It was an example of how the economy could be boosted. Someone ended up with a boat, you got solar panels and someone got some beehives. Multiply that 68,000,000 residents and we can have a honey yield on a boat this year !

I agree with you that we should have no sympathy for publicans in the scenario you outlined.
But the difference between the publican and the hairdresser/other business is what ? They too, have had to not a stroke of work, no electric bill, no cleaners to employ, no nothing and just sit back taking money doing nothing.
That is complaining about the furlough scheme, of which I dont really have a view as to whether it was good bad or indifferent, but it was necessary.

I still see nothing wrong with the eat out to help out scheme and have not been persuaded otherwise by anyone.

I get the "Dont like publicans" who would appear to have boasted about their scenario (as in you know about it) not good form.

Keep safe

 

[olley]

Electric and gas standing charges and rates still have to be paid, rents still have to be paid, mortgages still have to be paid, a percentage of furlough wages have to be paid.

 

[olley]

Of course it does, if the strap fails or does not hold the mask satisfactorily, then they are not fit for purpose, the strap is essential in performing its function.
Don't forget these masks were for front line NHS workers with their lives at risk, it is essential the mask is fit for purpose.

You seem very keen to find fault with the government.
The program I saw didn't say the straps wouldn't work, just that they didn't meet NHS spec, which could simply mean that they were from a different but perfectly adequate material to the spec.

 

[Rob Hammond]

Quite true, i don't believe in waste is good anytime anywhere.
My wife ia an accountant by trade and was on audit years ago for a pharmaceutical company who supplied the NHS, she found one item that had been paid for by the NHS 3 times in error to the tune of over £13,000 and spoke to the NHS accounts department, about repayment of the overpayment, she was told that they did not have the facility to take any over payments back, and to the best of her knowledge it was never repaid!!!
And that was just one!!!

It does beggars belief .

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[Northernraider]

In posting #405 YOU WROTE;

I don't believe the vaccine is a super saviour. It will be an annual vaccine abd you will still require masks and social distancing for the next couple of years.

Folk seem to be ignoring this fact despite it being repeated regularly by health officials



The above was incorrect, I point out that it was incorrect. Do you now claim you were correct ?

I think you are on another planet

Its entirely correct you just hope it isn't ...based on one scientist from the company selling the vaccine stating he doesnt yet know if annual vaccines will be required.

One scientist ....thats your entire argument against dozens who have been stating for months that it is highly likely that there will be numerous strains and mutations just like the flu and that just like the flu it will require an annual vaccination.

Youre clutching at straws

 

[MITHRANDIR]

You seem very keen to find fault with the government.
The program I saw didn't say the straps wouldn't work, just that they didn't meet NHS spec, which could simply mean that they were from a different but perfectly adequate material to the spec.

If you read my posts i praised the government for having the forethought to pre order vaccines its not all criticism.
Could/would/should, standards are there for a reason, you are guessing why they were not fit for purpose.
fact is they were deemed as not fit for purpose, not because of their colour or sumsuch, because of the strap.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

If you read my posts i praised the government for having the forethought to pre order vaccines its not all criticism.
Could/would/should, standards are there for a reason, you are guessing why they were not fit for purpose.
fact is they were deemed as not fit for purpose, not because of their colour or sumsuch, because of the strap.

Try not having standards, that are stuck to in the aviation industry, planes fall out of the sky, and people die.
Its a rocky road to accept poor quality, and items that are sub standard.
I for one think that if people in the NHS are prepared to risk their lives every day and night to help us fight this terrible disease then it is incumbent on our government to make sure that they have all the best equipment money can buy, if they don't then the government deserves all the criticism it gets.
I don't care what anyone else thinks.

 

[ADJF]

And depending on their mode of transportation, likely less risky!

bit probably does not also even cover the cost of outward bound and return Covid tests, the latest money making scam. Our return to the UK, last week, has cost £650 for the the pair of us to have pre-arrival and post arrival day 2 and day 8 Covid tests......which have yet to arrive so 3 days in and we have not yet had the day 2 test. It is a money making scam.

If you look at the uk govt list of approved day 2 and day 8 test providers the list has now been expanded from 1 to 20+ providers .... that's probably been expanded now there has been enough time for Tory party ministers and their direct families, indirect families, pub landlords, cleaners, mistress's, party donors, enough time to set up these new providers. Makes you think that they are in this for the long haul

 

[gus-lopez]

we had folks going out who had never thought of going into pubs at another time just to get a tenner,

& the same with exercising ,or riding a bike ,or walking a dog. many hadn't done it in their lives before .Some who were"exercising" hadn't done it for 40 years. Just excuses to break the lockdown & go out.

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[Sandancers]

I think you are on another planet

Its entirely correct you just hope it isn't ...based on one scientist from the company selling the vaccine stating he doesnt yet know if annual vaccines will be required.

One scientist ....thats your entire argument against dozens who have been stating for months that it is highly likely that there will be numerous strains and mutations just like the flu and that just like the flu it will require an annual vaccination.

Youre clutching at straws

You obviously did not view the news item I quoted. It is Teresa Lamb, Associate Professor at the University of Oxford, Co-developer of the vaccine who made the statement that the team has NOT YET determined if boost jabs will be required later in the year.

If you look on BBC I-player today morning news it is at 1hr 54min in you will see it.

Maybe you could contact the team at Oxford and let them know that your sources have determined that booster jabs ARE required so the Oxford team can cease their considerations. I'm sure they will be glad of your advice.

I'll just repost the below from another "free thinker", as you claim to be;

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. ― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

 

[Sandancers]

Why didn’t I make millions selling PPE during the pandemic?

For the right kind of hustler, coronavirus has been a rich moneymaking scheme

www.ft.com

Read it, then make up your own mind, if it's not true, then the FT, would be liable for damages for slander.
Very unlikely.

Unfortunately the FT article is a pay for item, so I can't read it.

However, if the Company supplied items which were NOT as the specifications demanded, then they would normally be asked to change the item so it did meet specification. Once done then they could get paid.
If they did not meet the specification then if money had been paid up front the Gov. lawyers would seek to recover the money. Is that not how it works ? Now, getting the lawyers stirred into action may take some time, perhaps it is happening right now or immanently.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

Unfortunately the FT article is a pay for item, so I can't read it.

However, if the Company supplied items which were NOT as the specifications demanded, then they would normally be asked to change the item so it did meet specification. Once done then they could get paid.
If they did not meet the specification then if money had been paid up front the Gov. lawyers would seek to recover the money. Is that not how it works ? Now, getting the lawyers stirred into action may take some time, perhaps it is happening right now or immanently.

Not quite straight forward to just change 50 million masks is it?, and of course the powers that be had the time to mess around? they didn't..
The point you are missing is that the contracts shouldn't have been awarded at all to some of these companies, because they were/are plainly not suitable, and not subject to scrutiny. It's the law.
My business was approached to manufacture parts for ventilators, i would loved to have helped, and would have been grateful for the financial reward, i had to decline because i could not make the quantities in the required timescale. And you should know they were prepared to throw money upfront to get the ball rolling.
I doubt that these companies actually manufactured these items they most likely bought them in, Then not so easy to change things when something is wrong just being a middleman and not a manufacturer, big difference.
Want a hat in a rush? then go to a hatter who knows his/her stuff, not to an electrician.

 

[Sandancers]

Want a hat in a rush? then go to a hatter who knows his/her stuff, not to an electrician.

NEED a hat in a rush and the hatter is too busy to supply, but an electrician says he can make hats ? Then say, "go on make me one then, but it has to be to spec or I'm not paying you".

 

[MITHRANDIR]

NEED a hat in a rush and the hatter is too busy to supply, but an electrician says he can make hats ? Then say, "go on make me one then, but it has to be to spec or I'm not paying you".

Bs, but if that's what you think
Perhaps you should pay to read the FT article it makes enlightening reading.

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[Howard H]

I said right at the beginning it wasn't against the rules, but all that furlough money is going to the pub as they all live there, and if they are not selling anything why will they have to pay vat.
But the point was why do we have to feel sorry for them when they are far better off than they were before.

Sorry to disagree with you chaser about this ,where as some pubs have done ok out of this many haven’t . My son has a pub in my village and has been shut since November still paying staff contributions and pensions and other bills and he has not received one penny from the government. His savings are just about gone and thinks when the pubs reopen it won’t be profitable only serving outside .Please don’t take offence to this chaser I only want to point out not everyone has done well out of this pandemic .

 

[The general]

That suggests anyone who catches it has behaved in a way to make getting it more likely. I have spoken to people who had it and cannot understand how they managed to catch it they behaved in ways that sound similar to yours. If travel abroad is allowed it will be up to people whether they travel or not but I can see reasons why the powers that decide might think the increased risk of spread isn't worth it for a jolly.

I respect your point of view, of course, but i trust the government about as far as i could throw a ton of concrete
Boris Johnson shaking hands early on with all and sundry, and look where that got him
No clear direction on mask wearing for months
chancellors ill advised eat out scheme
lack of proper funding for ALL businesses, still ongoing
Delaying the start of lockdowns for far too long, against the advice of SAGE
Dominic cummings, doing as he pleases with impunity, and mr Johnson senior
No free school meals for an age and then only because they were shamed
The doling out of PPE contracts to totally inappropriate companies without any scrutiny or consequence it would seem.
The best thing they did was to back several vaccines and pre order, well done, thank god they have the NHS to administer the vaccine.
Not a particularly shining example of leadership.

A few hindsight’s there

 

[Minxy]

If you read my posts i praised the government for having the forethought to pre order vaccines its not all criticism.
Could/would/should, standards are there for a reason, you are guessing why they were not fit for purpose.
fact is they were deemed as not fit for purpose, not because of their colour or sumsuch, because of the strap.

Some info on the masks for you below - normally the masks would have had straps which tied round the back of the head/neck, the ones supplied had ear loops instead which after wearing for a while could cause rubbing etc issues to the wearers and cause the side of the masks to open up slightly which for those not in the front line isn't such an issue and therefore they could be used elsewhere if they continued with the purchase. These could still be used even by those who wear them for longer periods if necessary by using 'clips' that hold the straps at the rear of the head away from the ears, there were numerous people making 3-D printed versions of these clips for people to use, not only those in the NHS but in other settings too.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/a...150m-on-50-million-masks-deemed-unsafe-by-nhs

Bs, but if that's what you think
Perhaps you should pay to read the FT article it makes enlightening reading.

I suggest you read Rule 1 as you have a few times made BS comments to funsters now and other 'individually aimed' comments.

 

[The general]

You're damm right im gonna criticise incompetence. If they can't do the job then sack them and get someone who can.

And who would that be ??? They got to be voted in simple

 

[kevenh]

Today 19th March France has announced another lockdown for a month and this means that travel is restricted between regions. I wondering if our planned trip is going t happen as we have a Shuttle booking for the 18th May. Before you start shouting 'Go away in the UK' that is not going to happen with us. I've been camping for 30+ years and today in my opinion which I'm entitled to sites in the UK are just not worth the money. In excess of £30 per night for a fully serviced pitch when I pay no more than €25 in France and Spain with all services including Bar / Restaurants and Shop on site. Oh well if we cannot go then the M/H stays covered up until next year.
What do other Funsters think of the future?

My idea of hell!

JFF & FYO Ninjabob wrote that in reply to Midnightflyer looking IN EUROPE for what is your idea of hell.
I put that reference above for you.

We're all capable of having different needs, in different places.
The kevenhs have travelled world wide for decades to 7 continents without dissing other people's holiday likes or claiming there's are better.

But we're not perfect as privately we can be caught thinking: "why return to the same place year in year out when the world is so big?"
That's more for people who return to somewhere like Lanzarote every summer

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[chaser]

Sorry to disagree with you chaser about this ,where as some pubs have done ok out of this many haven’t . My son has a pub in my village and has been shut since November still paying staff contributions and pensions and other bills and he has not received one penny from the government. His savings are just about gone and thinks when the pubs reopen it won’t be profitable only serving outside .Please don’t take offence to this chaser I only want to point out not everyone has done well out of this pandemic .

I never take offence about anything on here, probably why I'm always argued against
But the question has got to be asked, if he hasn't had compensation, why not?

 

[suavecarve]

I suggest you read Rule 1 as you have a few times made BS comments to funsters now and other 'individually aimed' comments.

Personally speaking, I have no problem someone calling out what they think is BS by saying "BS".

Its a very quick way of saying "I dont believe you" and upon reflection and discussion he changed his mind. No offence was caused to me with that colloquialism.

I dont speak for others though

 

[Howard H]

I never take offence about anything on here, probably why I'm always argued against
But the question has got to be asked, if he hasn't had compensation, why not?

There are quite a few landlords that have slipped though the compensation net , not 100% sure how but it something to do with who pays the rates on the building and in this case the brewery company pays it so gets all the grants not the landlord

 

[Northernraider]

And who would that be ??? They got to be voted in simple

We all know the only reason the current shower got in there was for delivering the shambles.

People were happy to dismiss the opposition under the guise of anti sematic and other nonsense like the tories are now on a mission to smear sturgeon their popularity ratings pretty much say what the sensible uk public think of them.

 

[MITHRANDIR]

Some info on the masks for you below - normally the masks would have had straps which tied round the back of the head/neck, the ones supplied had ear loops instead which after wearing for a while could cause rubbing etc issues to the wearers and cause the side of the masks to open up slightly which for those not in the front line isn't such an issue and therefore they could be used elsewhere if they continued with the purchase. These could still be used even by those who wear them for longer periods if necessary by using 'clips' that hold the straps at the rear of the head away from the ears, there were numerous people making 3-D printed versions of these clips for people to use, not only those in the NHS but in other settings too.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/a...150m-on-50-million-masks-deemed-unsafe-by-nhs

I suggest you read Rule 1 as you have a few times made BS comments to funsters now and other 'individually aimed' comments.

I will consider myself suitably chastened. and apologise if the #s comment caused any offence, it was not particularly aimed at anyone.
I started this thread to find out what other peoples "loose" plans were, not should or shouldn't travel.
It has turned into something entirely different.

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