Floor hatches flexing

[Dorset Diver]

Mine is clearly a manufacturing / design problem. The lower third of my problem panel has been made with a join in it. This allows the panel to flex and that has started the delamination. The other hatches don't have the join and are not causing a problem.

 

[Clarky]

Mine is clearly a manufacturing / design problem. The lower third of my problem panel has been made with a join in it. This allows the panel to flex and that has started the delamination. The other hatches don't have the join and are not causing a problem.

Exactly the problem with mine. The bottom layer of the laminate, which isn't plywood but looks like a sheet of Formica or similar, had a join in the middle so there was no strength in it. It started to creak when walked on and eventually you could feel it bending a little as the ply above started to separate. At that point I requested a replacement and the new one is 100% OK. The other two floor hatches haven't given any problems so I don't think it is widespread.
The advice on Carthago Owners website to put a kitchen cabinet support under a hatch was, I think, a cheap and simple DIY suggestion from a member who had a problem on a quite old vehicle and wasn't a suggestion as a permanent cure for recurring problems.

Richard.

 

[Dorset Diver]

If I was to do a repair myself I would simply bond and screw a thin sheet of stainless steel or aluminum to the underside but I would prefer a replacement as it is under warranty.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I've not heard of it before this thread of it being a problem on Hymers but Carthago did have a lot problems with it.

I think @Theonlysue had her hatches replaced on her Hymer.

If I was to do a repair myself I would simply bond and screw a thin sheet of stainless steel or aluminum to the underside but I would prefer a replacement as it is under warranty.

One of the things I noticed was the top ply is only 9mm ply so not a lot to get a good hold with a screw thread, but may help as a temporary repair.

 

[Theonlysue]

Hymer in germany said glue drying out too quickly. Thats what caused the problem.

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[WonkyBass]

I asked my dealer if Hymer would entertain remedying the two delaminating hatches. Hymer declined as a) the MH is well out of warranty and b) they do not acknowledge that this is a known problem (caused by material or manufacturing failure, I assume).

I intend to attempt to glue and clamp the wood, as had been my intention before discovering this thread. Hymer will sell me replacement hatches via the dealer (who has been very helpful) albeit with a long lead-time to remake one of them so I have a fall-back if my repair is unsuccessful.

All pretty much as I'd expected. That's life.

 

[Lenny HB]

I asked my dealer if Hymer would entertain remedying the two delaminating hatches. Hymer declined as a) the MH is well out of warranty and b) they do not acknowledge that this is a known problem (caused by material or manufacturing failure, I assume).

I intend to attempt to glue and clamp the wood, as had been my intention before discovering this thread. Hymer will sell me replacement hatches via the dealer (who has been very helpful) albeit with a long lead-time to remake one of them so I have a fall-back if my repair is unsuccessful.

All pretty much as I'd expected. That's life.

Depends on how much clout the dealer has with Hymer the big German ones and our Belgium one often get Hymer to agree to do things that are out of warranty.

 

[jockaneezer]

why dont they use resin impregnated ply like phenolic which is super strong and waterproof

The resin is considerably heavier than the wood fibre portion in a phenolic sheet, compared to a "normal glued" ply sheet, so it's probably down to weight saving (and cost).

 

[Theonlysue]

The english hymer dealers rejected a few thing's under warranty that hymer germany had no problem rectifying!

 

[WonkyBass]

I am trying to glue and clamp one hatch as we speak (Titebond wood glue, g cramps and quick clamps) but I am doubtful of the result. The failed joint is uneven despite my attempts to clean it and I don't feel I have been able to get sufficient pressure to close the gap so the glue will work permanently. Plus I am only regluing about a quarter of the hatch and the other three quarters is going to fail at some point.

I have therefore just ordered two replacement hatches.

My wife suggested I carefully check the surrounding floor that supports the hatches and also check the other three hatches of similar construction in the bedroom. One is over the fresh water tank and two are for accessing cables and wiring in the double floor. The surrounds seem sound but on careful inspection two other hatches are also failing i.e. four out of the five wooden hatches are delaminating. The van is 3 1/2 years old, owned from new by us.

As I say, my initial plan had been to glue them but I think this would likely become a continual task throughout my ownership and I'm not interested in doing this or in tip-toeing around the rear of the van avoiding the hatches and cursing when I/we forget. I am therefore ordering replacements for the other two failures.

To paraphrase Wilde, "To lose two hatches may be regarded as a misfortune: to lose four..."

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[Theonlysue]

@WonkyBass contact hymer in Germany directly. Says its a know problem and you must have them replaced free of charge before you have an accident and fall through one.
You could drive there. 2 days all motorway and just under 500 miles each way.

 

[bellabee]

@WonkyBass contact hymer in Germany directly. Says its a know problem and you must have them replaced free of charge before you have an accident and fall through one.
You could drive there. 2 days all motorway and just under 500 miles each way.

.....and an excellent place to spend a few days' holiday .

 

[WonkyBass]

All good suggestions, much appreciated.

All five floor hatches in the raised floor area of our 2014 Hymer T698CL have either failed or are starting to delaminate. I am repairing the worst two so we don't have to tip-toe around the bedroom avoiding them altogether but it is just not possible to fix them completely without more time and effort than I am willing to expend.

My dealer has given me 20% goodwill discount on the replacements bringing the total to around £150. I am going this route.

I did ok out of Hymer warranty claims during the first two years (8 new alloys, 4 new taps, cushions, seals, Truma element, oven hinge, 2 reading lights replaced, awning jammed and replaced, numerous fit and finish) and two garage doors this year under damp warranty. I am now 17 months outside of standard warranty - do I expect Hymer to keep repairing items indefinately? Of course not. I'd like them to but you've got to be realistic. Stuff breaks.

I would urge funsters to carefully check their floor hatches for delamination before their warranty expires. Do not ignore sponginess underfoot, lift the hatches and check each corner to make sure that the top 5mm of the hatch is not seperating from the recessed bottom 10mm anywhere and that there are no voids in edge of the ply.

 

[BusyBuilder]

How thick are these hatches ? and how thick is the top overhang/lip ?

 

[WonkyBass]

Some are 14.5mm, others are 17mm. The overhang is about 5mm thick/deep and perhaps 6 or 7mm wide.

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[Theonlysue]

They glued and screwed mine.
The Germans would get everything fixed warranty or not.

 

[BusyBuilder]

So the supporting edge is only 5mm thick and overhangs by 6mm ??

I have access hatches in cupboards like that, I don't consider that well enough supported to take any weight. My B544 are about 18mm thick and similar overhang. Have Hymer changed their production methods since 2012 ?

 

[peterc10]

Just checked my 2015 B678.

The lip of the hatch cover is 12mm wide and 14mm thick. The overall thickness of the hatch cover is 30mm. As I have said in a previous post they are made of ply (or appear to be). They are quite light so I suspect it may be balsa ply.

 

[BusyBuilder]

Even structural ply is quite light weight.

 

[WonkyBass]

I've now glued up and clamped the two worst hatches while I wait for Hymer to manufacture the new ones I have had to buy. This is a temporary fix - the layers that haven't yet failed will continue to do so with use, requiring more glue until it is all replaced.

The most damaged one (hatch 2 in the picture) had multiple layers delaminating. This is not a decorative panel - it bears the full weight of a person ever time they stand on it to get into bed.

It had felt spongy for some time (not my side of the bed) and I had stupidly not addressed it immediately so as well as the layers coming apart, the individual plies of course are fracturing along the grain. Ply layers have little strength without their neighbours. The most worrying cracking is of the unsupported overhang that prevent the hatch falling into the gap. The entire weigh of the person standing on the hatch is being supported by a 3-ply margin 5mm thick by 8mm to10mm wide with a decorative top. Once the bottom 4-ply starts to delaminate and break away from the top, the top flexes more and that margin fractures.

If the floor hatches you stand on start to flex AT ALL, deal with them straight away!

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[Lenny HB]

Just checked my 2015 B678.

The lip of the hatch cover is 12mm wide and 14mm thick. The overall thickness of the hatch cover is 30mm. As I have said in a previous post they are made of ply (or appear to be). They are quite light so I suspect it may be balsa ply.

That is about the same as mine, the lip they sit on in floor is only 10mm.
Our largest one is 490mm x 340mm with my heafty lump (74kg) on it, no apparent movement.

 

[WonkyBass]

Mine took 3 1/2 years to be noticed as a problem.

When I get the Hymer manufacturered replacement I might be able to see if they have changed the construction method or materials in response to such real-world issues.

I suspect that the problem would have been visible a long time ago had I examined the hatches carefully, but then why would I?

The failure is progressive as the increased flexing of the hatch causes more of the glue/wood interface within the ply to fail. My five hatches are all in different states of failure. The fresh water tank hatch I glued this morning had only started to fail on one corner about 100mm in each direction and hardly flexed underfoot. The smallest hatch shows only the smallest sign of de-bonding but then it hardly gets any foot traffic.

I probably would not have posted all this had the thread not have just appeared at the same time I encountered the problem. This is not going to be an isolated instance.

I guess I feel about this the same as Lenny feels about Banner AGMs fitted by Hymer and charged by Electrobloks set to gel. Someone made a design decision that resulted in a failure far sooner than a reasonable consumer would have expected but nobody is admitting it. And I am having to pay. So we must warn others.

 

[stewartwebr]

Had no issues with the hatches on my N&B Flair and the Morelo has no hatches. There is no requirement to access the water tanks as the level devices for the tanks are not probes but work by ultrasonic measurement. They are located in the side locker if anything should go wrong.

One thing that annoys me about the hatches, and this seems to be the case in Hymer, Burstner and N&B is they do not match the floor pattern. You are supplied with the wrong hatch for your van. I raised it at the N&B factory tour and observed the floors being manufactured, the hatches are cut out the floor and passed to another department to do whatever they do to fit handle etc then they are sent back to the line to fit into a random motorhome and the floor covering which normally consists of some sort of rectangular geometrics does not match the floor covering in that van. Surely they could add a code to the hatch and the floor and ensure they match the two up further along the production line to provide a lovely hatch which matches the hole its covering.

If you look at the picture attached by @WonkyBass you will see its not the right hatch for the floor. The pattern does not match

Perhaps its just my OCD for everything to be symmetrically correct

 

[Lenny HB]

Your not the only one always pees me off they can't be bothered to match the hatches up to the floor.

 

[funflair]

Had no issues with the hatches on my N&B Flair and the Morelo has no hatches. There is no requirement to access the water tanks as the level devices for the tanks are not probes but work by ultrasonic measurement. They are located in the side locker if anything should go wrong.

One thing that annoys me about the hatches, and this seems to be the case in Hymer, Burstner and N&B is they do not match the floor pattern. You are supplied with the wrong hatch for your van. I raised it at the N&B factory tour and observed the floors being manufactured, the hatches are cut out the floor and passed to another department to do whatever they do to fit handle etc then they are sent back to the line to fit into a random motorhome and the floor covering which normally consists of some sort of rectangular geometrics does not match the floor covering in that van. Surely they could add a code to the hatch and the floor and ensure they match the two up further along the production line to provide a lovely hatch which matches the hole its covering.

If you look at the picture attached by @WonkyBass you will see its not the right hatch for the floor. The pattern does not match

Perhaps its just my OCD for everything to be symmetrically correct

I understand your desire to match the floor pattern and in an ideal world I would want it that way myself BUT I believe that they cut out the ply with a tool of a certain diameter so the same cut out will not go back in the hole, and that is forgetting the fact that they have to cut a rebate into the floor and on the underside of the hatch to get it to sit flush, the only way would be to use for example water jet to get very fine cut line and then bond the back ply to the hatch and bond a rebate under the floor.

PS ours does match as we have a random speckle finish to the floor, and carpets over anyway.

Martin

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[Clarky]

Our Carthago hatches are a pretty close match to the rest of the flooring, although not exact.
At least they were until we had one replaced. That one is a bit more out but as we have a loose mat covering it we only see it when delving into its depths to retrieve something.

Richard.

 

[peterc10]

One thing that annoys me about the hatches, and this seems to be the case in Hymer, Burstner and N&B is they do not match the floor pattern. You are supplied with the wrong hatch for your van. I raised it at the N&B factory tour and observed the floors being manufactured, the hatches are cut out the floor and passed to another department to do whatever they do to fit handle etc then they are sent back to the line to fit into a random motorhome and the floor covering which normally consists of some sort of rectangular geometrics does not match the floor covering in that van. Surely they could add a code to the hatch and the floor and ensure they match the two up further along the production line to provide a lovely hatch which matches the hole its covering.

As Martin has pointed at I do not think that they use the cut out bit to make the hatch. I cannot think of a practical way that it could be done given that both the cut out and the hatch are stepped. And in my Hymer I am not sure that they are even made of the same material. The floor is made of composite panel with foam in the middle; the hatches are made of plywood throughout as far as I can see.

Our floor has a wood plank effect finish. The "planks" do not line up on the hatches but I really do not notice it when we have the carpets up; I am too busy just enjoying life.

 

[BusyBuilder]

Our hatches have PU foam in them. The hatch lip could be made if the floor was two pieces of ply boded together with the bottom layer having a smaller cutout.

 

[funflair]

Our hatches have PU foam in them. The hatch lip could be made if the floor was two pieces of ply boded together with the bottom layer having a smaller cutout.

That sounds like a job creation scheme and the hatch would still have a tool width gap around it when you put it back.

Martin

 

[peterc10]

Our hatches have PU foam in them. The hatch lip could be made if the floor was two pieces of ply boded together with the bottom layer having a smaller cutout.

And how do you make the horizontal cut that forms the lip before the hatch bit is removed? And bear in mind both lips (floor and hatch) have to be made of plywood.

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