EGR valve blanking/cheating

[Techno]

Well as you know I cured my throttle valve water ingress issue but I think it is time to remove dismantle and clean it. This should give me a look in the manifold too?.

 

[Techno]

I see from this that recirculation does not occur at idle.

 

[jonandshell]

Yes but not at shut down. The dog cleaning cycle happens at high revs so most likely to happen on the motorway.

I know that is a predictive text typo, but a van with a dog cleaning cycle would be a great benefit to some of us!!!!!

 

[haganap]

If like me you drive your van like you stole it, there is simply no problem....

 

[Judge Mental]

Indeed..commercial vans designed to be driven hard.

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[Peter A Forbes]

When you look at what the EGR valve does, it's no wonder that things get coked up.

EGR first appeared in the mid to late 60's in America on their V8's, and unfortunately the idea came over to Europe where we made a right mess of its application, especially on diesel engines.

Most people I know with Land Rover diesels take them out or just blank the port. As Andy says, once the port is blanked the engine hasn't got to ingest exhaust fumes and is all the better for it. Emissions is not a problem with the EGR out of circuit in most cases, but ever-clever engine designers now make them part of the diagnostic loop so they need to be present as least.

We seem to have gone from leading the world in diesel engine design to showing the world how to screw it up again.

I don't think our Mercedes has EGR fitted, just an exhaust brake which precludes the EGR being in the circuit.

Peter

 

[DBK]

I see from this that recirculation does not occur at idle.

I'm certainly no expert but my understanding is EGR is not used on idle in petrol engine as it would make for uneven running but it is on diesels.

 

[Techno]

I'm certainly no expert but my understanding is EGR is not used on idle in petrol engine as it would make for uneven running but it is on diesels.

No not so. The extract I posted is from the eLearn manual for my engine.
Final paragraph

 

[Techno]

No it doesnt, the EGR is a butterfly valve controlled by a motor. It doesnt have any cleaning cycle

The throttle control valve has the butterfly not the EGR

 

[Techno]

I went over and removed my throttle valve this morning and indeed my inlet manifold is rather crap, only 45k miles.
This has got to be one of the most awkward to remove for access.

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[Techno]

An hour later. At £315 a shot it pays to look after it Broken Link Removed

 

[Peter A Forbes]

Amen!

How can any manufacturer build that kind of problem into an engine?

Crazy.

Peter

 

[Techno]

I'm not going anywhere until the end of February but I will do the next 2 tanks of fuel with the vacuum pipe clamped and monitor the mpg

 

[taffybloke]

Andy and I have been discussing this on the fiat forum and while there are a lot of valid comments here, life would be a lot better without the bloody thing.

Although the Fiat EGR is vacuum controlled and can be easily disabled by blanking or stopping the vacuum getting to it the engine will run a little rougher on tickover. on mine it seems to be a bit flat between 2-3000 rpm with the EGR working but pulls sweetly when blocked. Again, on mine there is a vacuum going to the EGR on tickover so it is open

There will be a lot of different opinions as to leave it, block it, thrash it. and while we know its there for a reason it is still a load of CRAP.

I wonder if we can get a funster discount for buying a load of the blanking kits from tafmet

Mike

 

[Techno]

I'm prepared to buy the ebay device but to me it reads 2006 or earlier?
http://galeria.123.opole.pl/manuals/emu_egr_06_en_dig-3.0.pdf

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[taffybloke]

No Andy it says 2006on and 3.0l

Mike

 

[SUGGY]

My EGR died in Morocco , the engine went into limp mode ,a local mechanic striped and cleaned it out and reset the engine management system , it ran ok for 300 miles then started playing up ie loss of power , i could not get up the slope out of the campsite , so i blanked it off with a piece of beer can as suggested on the transit forum , it worked ok until i was 3500mts up a pass in the Atlas mountains when the engine died on me and would not go uphill at all , so i had to reverse down the mountain for about 1/2 a mile until i could turn round ... i then had to drive 200 miles to Agadir to the nearest Ford agent for a replacement at £400 fitt7ed ,
The suggestion on the forums was , that you dont need an EGR valve but it is there for a purpose ,
My van is a 2009 Ford Transit with only 17,000 miles ... at that time

 

[Techno]

It's purpose is not to deliver power, to the contrary when the engine is accelerating or demanding power the EGR is closed.
On more recent engines it is not as simple as blanking it off, additional electronics are required to run correctly.
As per this example for mine Broken Link Removed

 

[SUGGY]

That maybe so but ... When mine stopped working the engine went into limp / reduced power mode , and would not go up even a very small slope even less than the ramp for a car ferry ......

 

[DBK]

The purpose of the EGR is to save lives, a few thousand a year. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17704116
Main causes of pollution deaths are particulates, that's what the DPF is for and nitrous oxides, which the EGR tackles.

The problem is the technology isn't yet sorted but I think we have to live with it.

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[Techno]

That maybe so but ... When mine stopped working the engine went into limp / reduced power mode , and would not go up even a very small slope even less than the ramp for a car ferry ......

Apparently transit requires a hole
Broken Link Removed

 

[Techno]

No Andy it says 2006on and 3.0l

Mike

I've just bought it

 

[tonyidle]

I went over and removed my throttle valve this morning and indeed my inlet manifold is rather crap, only 45k miles.
This has got to be one of the most awkward to remove for access.

That is pretty much as the Mondeo I mentioned. Apart from the reduction of NOx emissions there is absolutely no value in recirculating exhaust gas. It does nothing for power, even running, or efficiency. And, arguably, nothing at all for anything once the engine has a few miles on it.

 

[tonyidle]

The purpose of the EGR is to save lives, a few thousand a year. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17704116
Main causes of pollution deaths are particulates, that's what the DPF is for and nitrous oxides, which the EGR tackles.

The problem is the technology isn't yet sorted but I think we have to live with it.

It's a bit like catalytic convertors on petrol engines. Back in the mists of time there was a decision to be made: wait for lean burn to propagate from Honda to the rest or fit a cat & fix it now. The Government went for the cat that increases fuel consumption & reduces power. Now we're stuck with it. EGR will do what it says on the tin for most Diesel engines to pass emissions tests pre-production. They've been around for 10-15 years and have become more sophisticated in the sense that failure detection has improved. What they have never done, and still don't, is work effectively past 50K miles. There will never be an EGR system that doesn't clog manifolds and inlet valves. There will never be a completely reliable EGR system. There can't be - it allows the filth that should exit the exhaust to be introduced back into the engine intake. It doesn't even take it from after the particulate filter - EGR porting is either within the cylinder head or inlet / exhaust manifolds. My view - whatever it takes remove it.

 

[Techno]

So now I have a clean throttle body the EGR will be blanked off and an electronic device will inform my ECU that all is correct.
Will my air intake manifold clean itself? I think not.
Any advice on cleaning it as a viable alternative to removing?

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[tonyidle]

I don't think there's an easy way. Whatever you use will find its way into any cylinder with an open inlet valve. I don't suppose the crud would do much harm but whatever solvent you used (even Diesel fuel) would wash the oil off the bore & dilute the oil in the sump. You could stuff it with a rag soaked in thinners, pull out rag, repeat (many times).

 

[Techno]

My thoughts too
I managed to find gaskets online last night from Mr Auto so I'll do it properly

 

[Abacist]

As usual Andy has come up with a fascinating topic that gives a lot of food for thought. Looking forward to hearing the results of blanking off the EGR valve and the revised electrics to fool the ECU.

In the USA it seems to be illegal to tamper with emission systems and EGR valves had to be fitted by manufacturers by law so is there any penalty if found out or are we ok if the vehicle passes its emissions tests in the MOT?

Andy is my engine tha same as yours? 3 litre Fiat in 2010 Autotrail?

 

[Techno]

To my knowledge the EGR is not part of an MOT only the emissions.
Yes your engine will be the same euro four.

Having quickly googled reference to legality it reveals that all US based websites say illegal but I cannot find the word used on UK based sites (only the GOV may make it illegal)
I found this good page on the EGR
http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/diesel-engine-egr-bad/

A really good point is that the engine has an air filter to ensure a clean air supply and yet the EGR feeds shite back into the air intake duct UNFILTERED Oh Please!
Also and engine burns 3% more fuel to overcome the EGR consequences and thus produces more pollution.

As usual Andy has come up with a fascinating topic that gives a lot of food for thought

Thank you

 

[Techno]

Another point to note
No amount of fuel additives will make a hapeth of difference to the throttle control valve or air intake duct. It gets filthy because it is recycling burnt gases and carries no fuel.

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