Ducato engine/gearbox given up in France.

[Mixyblob]

Only other explanation is it dropped a valve which broke off on contact with the piston and caused extensive damage rattling about in the combustion chamber

But that wouldn't explain the valve marks on the other pistons

 

[gus-lopez]

But that wouldn't explain the valve marks on the other pistons

The valve marks on the others are all on the inlet side ?

Looking at the 2 valves per cylinder for both inlet & exhaust, i would guess that it is a twin cam? If so it looks like when the belt was changed the inlet cam wasn't lined up correctly. & touched when started .it was then retimed correctly.

*Having rebuilt a twin cam Fiat Osca Maserati engine with 3 sets of timing marks, (don't ask) & winding it over by hand & having them touch it takes nothing to bend a valve even minutely.

 

[Catpirate]

I am not sure if you could fit a Euro6 engine and comply with ULEZ requirements, I expect it is more complicated than just fitting an engine. Thinking ECU, exhaust bits, adblue system etc

 

[adi4]

Seeing that there are interference marks on all of the other pistons I can tell you 100% that there has been a cam timing issue at some point.

When you fit a belt on these engines you need locking pins for the crank and cam, you have these in place, then you slacken the cam sproket, fit and slightly tension the cam belt then torque the cam sproket bolt. There is no keyway between the sproket and the cam.

In my opionion either the cam belt was fitted directly in place of the old belt ( fine timing not done with the pin kit )

Or if the pin kit was used it is possible that during torquing the sproket bolt the sproket moved slightly ( this should have been picked up when the fitter turned the engine over a couple of times and tried fitting the timing pins again )

Or the cam sproket bolt wasn't torqued enough and it moved slightly alowing the timing to change enough for slight valve to piston contact.

I the above situations it is possible for the valves to be just kissing the pistons for a while but not be really heard but after a period of time eventually the head fractured off intake valve in cyl 3 and while it was dancing around in the bore it took an exhaust valve with it.

Adi

 

[eurajohn]

The valve marks on the others are all on the inlet side ?

Looking at the 2 valves per cylinder for both inlet & exhaust, i would guess that it is a twin cam? If so it looks like when the belt was changed the inlet cam wasn't lined up correctly. & touched when started .it was then retimed correctly.

*Having rebuilt a twin cam Fiat Osca Maserati engine with 3 sets of timing marks, (don't ask) & winding it over by hand & having them touch it takes nothing to bend a valve even minutely.

On the Ducato engine the belt only drives one cam the other is driven by a chain at the other end of the cams.
I pointed out that only the inlets had marked the piston in a much earlier post, which to me suggested the timing pins and cam pulley realignment had not been carried out at the replacement.

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[Mixyblob]

The valve marks on the others are all on the inlet side ?

Looking at the 2 valves per cylinder for both inlet & exhaust, i would guess that it is a twin cam? If so it looks like when the belt was changed the inlet cam wasn't lined up correctly. & touched when started .it was then retimed correctly.

*Having rebuilt a twin cam Fiat Osca Maserati engine with 3 sets of timing marks, (don't ask) & winding it over by hand & having them touch it takes nothing to bend a valve even

The valve marks on the others are all on the inlet side ?

Looking at the 2 valves per cylinder for both inlet & exhaust, i would guess that it is a twin cam? If so it looks like when the belt was changed the inlet cam wasn't lined up correctly. & touched when started .it was then retimed correctly.

*Having rebuilt a twin cam Fiat Osca Maserati engine with 3 sets of timing marks, (don't ask) & winding it over by hand & having them touch it takes nothing to bend a valve even minutely.

On the Ducato engine the belt only drives one cam the other is driven by a chain at the other end of the cams.
I pointed out that only the inlets had marked the piston in a much earlier post, which to me suggested the timing pins and cam pulley realignment had not been carried out at the replacement.

I'm just trying to get this straight in my head… which valve cams are driven by the belt and which by the chain? This is the first time I've heard mention of a chain TBH.

 

[Mixyblob]

Seeing that there are interference marks on all of the other pistons I can tell you 100% that there has been a cam timing issue at some point.

When you fit a belt on these engines you need locking pins for the crank and cam, you have these in place, then you slacken the cam sproket, fit and slightly tension the cam belt then torque the cam sproket bolt. There is no keyway between the sproket and the cam.

In my opionion either the cam belt was fitted directly in place of the old belt ( fine timing not done with the pin kit )

Or if the pin kit was used it is possible that during torquing the sproket bolt the sproket moved slightly ( this should have been picked up when the fitter turned the engine over a couple of times and tried fitting the timing pins again )

Or the cam sproket bolt wasn't torqued enough and it moved slightly alowing the timing to change enough for slight valve to piston contact.

I the above situations it is possible for the valves to be just kissing the pistons for a while but not be really heard but after a period of time eventually the head fractured off intake valve in cyl 3 and while it was dancing around in the bore it took an exhaust valve with it.

Adi

Wow, an impressive diagnosis adi4, many thanks, its all going to add to the evidence. You obviously know your stuff.

 

[eurajohn]

I'm just trying to get this straight in my head… which valve cams are driven by the belt and which by the chain? This is the first time I've heard mention of a chain TBH.

The exhaust cam is driven directly by the belt on the left hand side of the engine (as you look at motor in engine bay), the inlet cam is driven by a chain which is driven by sprockets fixed to the opposite end of both camshafts.
I did refer to the correct use of pins etc in earlier post.
And in reference to an earlier comment you made, in my original reply I was in no way trying to suggest you had chosen the company that you did because of price.

 

[pappajohn]

But that wouldn't explain the valve marks on the other pistons

Only other thing I can think to explain that, and may even have been the cause of the main damage........
Disintegrated turbo vain's.

Whatever cause the pitting in the other cylinders can only have entered via a valve

 

[Vipar]

Seeing the rust deposits could it have been caused by Hydraulicing ie water entering the cylinders that would break the valves/pistons and cause a terrible noise?

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[chaser]

Whatever it is I can't see you getting any redress off anyone 1000s of miles later, I fully sympathize with you mate, I just couldn't afford to do anything with it, mine, I would just scrap it but you can't do that but I haven't got anything worth what your van is worth, it's something I have no knowledge of, god, I am glad I am not in your position, really it would do me in.

 

[Drexl]

Firstly, Mixyblob very sorry to hear of your van engine problem and I do hope that you get to the root cause of the issue and that you get recompense if you are due it from the company that serviced your van. Also thanks for sharing your experience as there are several useful aspects that I and others can benefit from. If I may I would offer some thoughts.
1) A good example of why an 'emergency fund' is a must have whether working or retired. Ability to have ready cash to get stuff sorted at short notice helps immeasurably in stressful situations.
2) I was involved with technical investigations when I was working. 90% of investigation root causes were 'human factors' i.e. mistakes, non-compliance, accidental overload, distracted, tired, didn't understand, not properly trained, no written procedures, poor ergonomics etc etc. Very few were actually design error, materials problem, manufacturing error.
3) I know you are gathering as much evidence and info as possible from the workshop in France. I would not have much confidence that you will get anything out of the company that carried out your original van maintenance. They will not have the ability to strip down the engine, inspect parts or have opportunity to put right. From their point of view any photos provided could be from anywhere - not being derogatory to you or your repairing agent. So I doubt that you will have any comeback there. Sorry to be so negative.
4) If I was in your position, I would use a credit card for a proportion of the cost to have Section 75 consumer credit protection should there be any problems with the repair.
Hope you get your van fixed and you're back on the road soon.

 

[denisejoe]

On the recovery when we broke down in uk we had RAC cover through comfort the RAC sent out a van first who couldn’t do anything but referred it to their commercial branch who sent an artic out who backed up in front of us driver got out pressed a button and the twin rear wheels of the trailer just rolled forward hr put a winch on us and dragged us on chained us down then pressed another button and wheels just rolled back into position
he could easy picked up a 12meter van

 

[Jackd]

Any update on your troubles Mixyblob ?
Did you manage to source a cheaper refurbished motor ?
Back in the U.K. or still in France?


I think it’s fair to say that lots of people wish you all the best, I know we do.

 

[gus-lopez]

I was in your position, I would use a credit card for a proportion of the cost to have Section 75 consumer credit protection should there be any problems with the repair.

What he said.^^^^^^^^^^

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[RM_Marine]

Would it not be cheaper and easier to buy a new/ refurbished engine and swap one for one

 

[Mixyblob]

Any update on your troubles Mixyblob ?
Did you manage to source a cheaper refurbished motor ?
Back in the U.K. or still in France?


I think it’s fair to say that lots of people wish you all the best, I know we do.

Thanks very much for your kind wishes. We've decided to stay in France while the garage order and fit a new (reconditioned) engine.
We've been extremly fortunate accommodation wise, as we're being put up by (get this) by a a next door neighbor of my brother in law's, nephew's daughter here in Toulouse and its only an hours cycle away from the garage. It looks like its going to take about 2 weeks for the engine to come from Italy. Luckily we're being very well looked after by some extremely nice people, and its really made this whole nightmare a lot easier to deal with. It has really restored my faith in humanity.

 

[Mixyblob]

Would it not be cheaper and easier to buy a new/ refurbished engine and swap one for one

Cheaper and easier than what?

 

[flatpackchicken]

Just a note for paying fir your new engine without any bank charges and getting up to date bank rate.
I had to pay out €8500 a couple of years ago in Portugal, and trying to transfer the money by bank transfer was going to cost about £250 so I used my credit card (max £5000) and paid €5000 and then went into my bank online and paid up the €5000 straight away, then next day when all cleared in bank, paid the remainder €3500 and again repaid it straight away leaving my cc clear and €8500 bill all paid with no charges at all and the bank rate for the £ for that day. You may have another way of paying but hopefully this will be an option for anyone else who gets into trouble abroad. Good luck

 

[Mixyblob]

Just a note for paying fir your new engine without any bank charges and getting up to date bank rate.
I had to pay out €8500 a couple of years ago in Portugal, and trying to transfer the money by bank transfer was going to cost about £250 so I used my credit card (max £5000) and paid €5000 and then went into my bank online and paid up the €5000 straight away, then next day when all cleared in bank, paid the remainder €3500 and again repaid it straight away leaving my cc clear and €8500 bill all paid with no charges at all and the bank rate for the £ for that day. You may have another way of paying but hopefully this will be an option for anyone else who gets into trouble abroad. Good luck

Great idea flatpackchicken and great name btw. Many thanks.

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[Jackd]

Or
Setup an account with “wise” Here
Transfer from your British account instantly and covert to euro’s @ the best rates. Even get a debit card. Have a read, see what you think.

I have family and friends who now live in European countries and all use “wise”

 

[nicholsong]

Or
Setup an account with “wise” Here
Transfer from your British account instantly and covert to euro’s @ the best rates. Even get a debit card. Have a read, see what you think.

I have family and friends who now live in European countries and all use “wise”

I am another user if Wise on a monthly basis. Works well and is quick.

Bank transfer to their account is slightly cheaper than using debit card.

 

[DerryW]

Sadly i too suspect cam belt,
But i had a turbo split in a diesel engine car and that made allsorts of noises and the oil filled the cylinders and caused it to hydro lock,
So it was a case of drain oil from bores & intercooler, fit new turbo and away it went,
Good luck with yours.
Eric

Mine (Car) unfortunately required a complete new engine at £12k

 

[Mixyblob]

UPDATE
Some better news, we went to get some belongings from our van at the garage and to take more photos of the damage.
Spoke to Benjamin (the chap we're dealing with), who told us the new engine should only take 72 hrs to arrive, not the 2 weeks as first thought. Another 3 days to fit it, so, if all goes well, we should be back on the road by the middle of next week. Watch this space.

 

[flatpackchicken]

UPDATE
Some better news, we went to get some belongings from our van at the garage and to take more photos of the damage.
Spoke to Benjamin (the chap we're dealing with), who told us the new engine should only take 72 hrs to arrive, not the 2 weeks as first thought. Another 3 days to fit it, so, if all goes well, we should be back on the road by the middle of next week. Watch this space.

Great news Hope all goes well with new engine, and 3 days to fit sounds ok as they have to transfer all your existing stuff on the outside of your engine to the new one. Onward and upward

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[Mixyblob]

Great news Hope all goes well with new engine, and 3 days to fit sounds ok as they have to transfer all your existing stuff on the outside of your engine to the new one. Onward and upward

After seeing it in the flesh yesterday, I recon it would take me 3 days just to put the front of the van back together let alone the engine.

 

[flatpackchicken]

After seeing it in the flesh yesterday, I recon it would take me 3 days just to put the front of the van back together let alone the engine.

Well if this gives you a bit more hope, this was my view when I had my new engine !!!! Never thought in a million years it would be put back together after seeing this !!!!!!!! Good luck

 

[62272]

3) I know you are gathering as much evidence and info as possible from the workshop in France. I would not have much confidence that you will get anything out of the company that carried out your original van maintenance. They will not have the ability to strip down the engine, inspect parts or have opportunity to put right. From their point of view any photos provided could be from anywhere - not being derogatory to you or your repairing agent. So I doubt that you will have any comeback there. Sorry to be so negative.

Dont be put off by this users point of view on this subject. There is no reason whatsoever that your photos will not be accepted by a civil court in the UK if it comes to that. It would be worth putting on your geolocation (location services for your camera) so that should the pics be challenged then this would assist in negating such a claim. also be sure to photo the chassis number before taking each series of photos to be extra sure. Whether the company that originally completed the work accepts them, or chooses to challenge them is up to them, but to be honest that would just be game play on their part, and a court will decide on the balance of probabilities whether they are genuine.

 

[Mixyblob]

Dont be put off by this users point of view on this subject. There is no reason whatsoever that your photos will not be accepted by a civil court in the UK if it comes to that. It would be worth putting on your geolocation (location services for your camera) so that should the pics be challenged then this would assist in negating such a claim. also be sure to photo the chassis number before taking each series of photos to be extra sure. Whether the company that originally completed the work accepts them, or chooses to challenge them is up to them, but to be honest that would just be game play on their part, and a court will decide on the balance of probabilities whether they are genuine.

I totally agree with you and to be fair, Drexl's post is only his opinion and, as it happens, not one that I particularly agree with.
Yours, on the other hand, is a different matter, just MY (optomistic) opinion.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Can you have the old engine shipped back to the UK on a pallet so you can present it to the garage that was supposed to have done your timing belt?

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