Ducato engine/gearbox given up in France.

[airwave]

The dropped valves are one of each i.e. 1 inlet, 1exhaust, if you look carefully at the remains the other 3 pistons are marked but only by the inlets.

So , i guessing it's a dohc then , kinda limits the chance of a valve drop then . Don't know much about the 2.3 , 16v , mine is a 2.7 , 8v head , and a sohc .

 

[pappajohn]

I had much worse when I was 17 years old, not as expensive.....but worse.
250cc BSA single cylinder bike.
The top of the piston departed company with the piston body.
Did untold damage to the head, both valves and the cylinder bore.

Stuck a 250cc Triumph Trophy engine in it

 

[Wack]

If you're in the AA/RAC they have legal cover as part of their cover , or house insurance has legal cover.
It does sound like this may get legal , the garage should have professional indemnity insurance so it'll probably be their insurance you'll eventually be dealing with.

 

[Googlebot]

Hope the OP gets it sorted, what an awful thing to happen.

Problem is, the original garage may have checked everything with a fine tooth comb, but something may not have been evident when they changed the belt. Engines are such things that not everything is clear till it’s clear.

Hope they can get it fixed quickly and you can enjoy it soon.

 

[Guigsy]

If the garage got the timing out, did some damage, then re-timed it, I'd have expected it to run like like crap. It would clatter, misfire and stutter with the leaking gases.

I'm still betting that the tensioner or idler wasn't torqued up properly. Maybe it slipped one tooth first, ran for a few revolutions and damaged the other pistons, before it slipped properly and seized up?

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[Neil n Pat]

Years ago the starter motor failed on our Elnagh Sleek with a Fiat engine. We got towed to the Fiat garage in Dunkerque. Two days later in the sweltering heat parked in the compound at the back of the garage still no new starter motor. Third day it was found kicked under the desk in reception. Day four it was fitted then we had the seven hundred and fifty euro bill. I blame Macron for the appalling extortionate service. It is everyone's nightmare breaking down abroad. What ever you do don´t mention Waterloo in 1815.
After reading your woes I´d throw some chicken bones on the carpet with some incantations to the motorhome engine God´s. Fully sympathise with you. Apologies for sounding negative, perhaps our experience has coloured my opinions of service abroad. Best of luck all the same.

 

[Mixyblob]

Quite possible.
There have been a few threads recently on cam belt change and the cost of getting it done, I've commented on a few but given up now as many think that it is best to get the job done as cheaply as is possible, but I'll wager the budget ones do not do the job properly.
By that I mean if you follow the correct procedure it is a task that has to be attacked from top and bottom, and involves removing quite a lot of what may appear to be unnecessary and using various tools and timing pins that insure the correct timing is achieved, it is of course however possible to just remove the old belt and hope nothing moves whilst the belt is off and slip the new one in its place, which I would suggest the way the cheapo ones do it, OK if nothing goes wrong.
Part of the correct procedure is to slacken the cam pulley bolt and reposition the pulley to suit the new belt which ensures absolutely correct timing when carried out, not likely part of the procedure if looking to do it quickly / cheaply.

As I mentioned previously the OP is likely to end up with a bill of €12k or so, ask yourself "do I feel lucky" next time you choose who renews your cam belt.

As an add the picture I posted earlier was from a 2014 Ducato that had covered 44000Kms, glad I've not got a low mileage 2014 van

When we chose the garage to carry out the timing belt change, the cost wasn't the main consideration. It was a matter of convenience, they were local, I drove there and cycled back after dropping the van off. They could do the job when we wanted, we'd used them before without any problems and coincidentally, there qoute to carry out the work was quite acceptable.

 

[Mixyblob]

Exactly. In the unlikely event that it would work it'd be an unacceptable bodge. That's why I'd get shot of it.



I'm not familiar with that engine but it looks as though the valves are inclined and so their heads wouldn't be parallel to the piston crown. If that's the case then if the engine was actually started and run, even briefly, with the pistons hitting the outer edge of the valves' heads I wouldn't have thought that there'd be a second chance to re-time it.

Surely it wouldn't necessarily have been started and run to weaken the valves, surely just turning the engine over a few times could have caused it to happen.

 

[Mixyblob]

I'm still betting that the tensioner or idler wasn't torqued up properly.

According to the garage when they stripped it down, the belt was correctly fitted and at the correct tension and the timing was correct.

 

[Lenny HB]

According to the garage when they stripped it down, the belt was correctly fitted and at the correct tension and the timing was correct.

Not really what you wanted to here.

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[Mixyblob]

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all the Funsters who have contributed to this thread, offering sympathy, advice and opinion.
In particular I'd like to thank yodeli (Frankie) for all her help with translation and speaking to the French garage on our behalf plus other offers of help.
We have been in contact with the UK garage who did the original work and sent them photos and the report from the French garage. They are going to "look in to it" and certainly didn't out and out dismiss it as not their problem.
We have decided to have a replacement Fiat recon engine fitted by the French garage at an estimated cost of €11800 and an estimated delivery time of 2 weeks from Italy.

 

[Mixyblob]

Not really what you wanted to here.

Its exactly what we wanted to hear. How else could the damage have been caused, other than the French garages explanation?

 

[Raul]

It’s not uncommon to drop a valve. Rare but it happens, I had a Kawasaki zx9R dropping a valve on piston 1. That’s cam chain not belt engine. This happened as I approached last bend (80mph ish), before pit straight on Bedford autodrom.
The stem bent in U, towards the piston, and split the piston.

I hope the OP repatriates the van to carry the repairs, or replacement engine.
Just seen the above reply.

 

[chatteris]

It’s not uncommon to drop a valve. Rare but it happens, I had a Kawasaki zx9R dropping a valve on piston 1. That’s cam chain not belt engine. This happened as I approached last bend (80mph ish), before pit straight on Bedford autodrom.
The stem bent in U, towards the piston, and split the piston.

I hope the OP repatriates the van to carry the repairs, or replacement engine.
Just seen the above reply.

yes odd things do happen, we had a 2017 nissan quasqia in last year with a dropped inlet valve could not see any reason for it, it was lowish mileage and not too much damage so fitted all new valves and put it back together, we currently have a 2016 renault traffic in with a knocking bottom end, the bolts had broken on 2 main bearing caps have never known a main cap bolt to break on anything

 

[Wack]

If the garage got the timing out, did some damage, then re-timed it, I'd have expected it to run like like crap. It would clatter, misfire and stutter with the leaking gases.

I'm still betting that the tensioner or idler wasn't torqued up properly. Maybe it slipped one tooth first, ran for a few revolutions and damaged the other pistons, before it slipped properly and seized up?

I had a vw lt35 that vw recalled for timing belt & tensioners. Picked it up and it sounded like they'd dropped nuts down the cylinders

The manager told me the cam was worn , it wasn't worn when it came in , took it to the garage I use , straight away , the belt is on a tooth out , stripped it , did the job correctly and perfect

VW paid their bill as a gesture of goodwill, probably because they were a well respected diesel specialist.

It ran perfectly for another 100k until I sold it , I must've been lucky.

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[Lenny HB]

Its exactly what we wanted to hear. How else could the damage have been caused, other than the French garages explanation?

What I meant was as they found the belt fitted and tensioned correctly it lessens your chance of a claim against the garage that fitted it.

 

[Spriddler]

Surely it wouldn't necessarily have been started and run to weaken the valves,

It rather depends upon the piston/valve overlap (degree of interference with each other which we don't know) My comment was relative to the garages suggestion..........

The French garage seem to think the UK garage fitted the new cambelt with the timing slightly out. They think it was probably started before they realised and before they re ajusted the timing correctly.
Concequently some damage had already been done, which explains the valve contact marks on the other pistons.

Before starting the engine I would turn the engine over a few times by hand with a spanner on the c/shaft nut (not by the starter motor) to double check that the timing was still correct

surely just turning the engine over a few times could have caused it to happen.

If the timing was so far out for the piston/valves to collide I would expect the engine to come to a 'hard' stop straight away when turned by hand. Interference is not progressive, i.e they would either collide straight away or they wouldn't - it's not a situation that would develop over time.

Without sight of and knowledge of your particular engine it's only speculation and I apologise for chewing the fat over your disastrous event, but having worked on vehicle engines for around 50 years I'm interested in how it ocurred if the belt timing and tension was correct.

I hope it's resolved satisfactorily.

 

[Mountain man]

I had much worse when I was 17 years old, not as expensive.....but worse.
250cc BSA single cylinder bike.
The top of the piston departed company with the piston body.
Did untold damage to the head, both valves and the cylinder bore.

Stuck a 250cc Triumph Trophy engine in it

That was a BSA starfire 250 cc piece of crap had one also mates all had the Trophy.

 

[pappajohn]

Surely it wouldn't necessarily have been started and run to weaken the valves, surely just turning the engine over a few times could have caused it to happen.

It should have been turned over by hand at least two full revolutions to ensure nothing was wrong.
If it was going to hit a valve it would be felt at that point.

 

[pappajohn]

That was a BSA starfire 250 cc piece of crap had one also mates all had the Trophy.

BSA C15

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[Mountain man]

BSA C15

That’s a bit older.

 

[Jamesh]

It rather depends upon the piston/valve overlap (degree of interference with each other which we don't know) My comment was relative to the garages suggestion..........

Before starting the engine I would turn the engine over a few times by hand with a spanner on the c/shaft nut (not by the starter motor) to double check that the timing was still correct

If the timing was so far out for the piston/valves to collide I would expect the engine to come to a 'hard' stop straight away when turned by hand. Interference is not progressive, i.e they would either collide straight away or they wouldn't - it's not a situation that would develop over time.

Without sight of and knowledge of your particular engine it's only speculation and I apologise for chewing the fat over your disastrous event, but having worked on vehicle engines for around 50 years I'm interested in how it ocurred if the belt timing and tension was correct.

I hope it's resolved satisfactorily.

That's my thought.
I think the timing belts slipped? Perhaps the tensioner was incorrectly fitted??

 

[Catpirate]

Hi, have you considered a recon engine. lots on Ebay, here is an example. Please note they require your old unit or there is a £500 surcharge. You may need to get back to UK.

Fiat ducato 2.3 euro 5 engine 2011 to 2016 remanufactured, , in stock | eBay

<p dir="ltr"></p> <p dir="ltr">Remanufactured fiatducato engine <br> 2.3 euro 5 <br> Fits 2010 to 2016 <br> Fully Machined engine with all bearings rings seals replaced <br> Exchange unit required which must be drained of oil and strapped back to pallet <br> Oil leaking of pallet will be charged...

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Bolti]

Hi, have you considered a recon engine. lots on Ebay, here is an example. Please note they require your old unit or there is a £500 surcharge. You may need to get back to UK.

Fiat ducato 2.3 euro 5 engine 2011 to 2016 remanufactured, , in stock | eBay

<p dir="ltr"></p> <p dir="ltr">Remanufactured fiatducato engine <br> 2.3 euro 5 <br> Fits 2010 to 2016 <br> Fully Machined engine with all bearings rings seals replaced <br> Exchange unit required which must be drained of oil and strapped back to pallet <br> Oil leaking of pallet will be charged...

www.ebay.co.uk

think the 'must turnover' might also be a problem.

 

[Catpirate]

think the 'must turnover' might also be a problem.

That is why they need a £500 surcharge. They could hone the bores, fit new pistons etc and scrap the head. May get £100 for the base engine block. I guess it will turnover fine without the head on, and it it is low mileage for the year.

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[Catpirate]

Here is a New engine

2.3 euro 5 fiae engine ,new crated ,suitable for fiat ducato please read on. | eBay

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Worth a ring

 

[Spriddler]

That's my thought.
I think the timing belts slipped? Perhaps the tensioner was incorrectly fitted??

It would seem not according to the garage, but one can never be certain.

According to the garage when they stripped it down, the belt was correctly fitted and at the correct tension and the timing was correct.

 

[mikebeaches]

Just sending best wishes to @Mixyblob

Sorry to hear about your engine woes and the time and cost of getting a reconditioned unit fitted.

Exactly what you didn't want or need on your holiday!

Hope you can eventually get it sorted.

 

[Catpirate]

Ancillaries need to be checked but cannot see inter cooler damage would be a factor, items on the exhaust side could be damaged and the most likely damaged item would be the turbo. It uses the exhaust gases to compress the inlet side. have the Garage check for bits in the sump this will give you clue of possible further damage, as will the oil filter.

example

Pardon our interruption...

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[pappajohn]

According to the garage when they stripped it down, the belt was correctly fitted and at the correct tension and the timing was correct.

Only other explanation is it dropped a valve which broke off on contact with the piston and caused extensive damage rattling about in the combustion chamber

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