Ducato - 5th gear popping out

[JockandRita]

Don't be afraid to hang on to 4th until 50+ mph, the engine is tough and won't break because of this. Your eardrums might though ;-)

And that's exactly how I use our 4th and 5th gears. It just doesn't feel right, changing up to 5th at anything lower than 50Mph (80Kph), even if it isn't labouring after the change.

From what I've read, one owner's 5th gear failed as early as 18,000 miles. Ours did well then to last 73,000 miles.

We live in the UK too, and ours went in Germany. oh:

Parts ordered at 08.00 today, and now awaiting supply.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[stratford4528]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. I'm not new to internet forums but new to motorhoming and new to the Ducato. We've had it since August last year and done around 10,000km in it since then.

Last week on the way to Le Mans I went for 5th and was quickly told by the gearbox that no, I'm not allowed that but can have neutral instead. All other gears OK. Rest of the trip was fine, just had to drive > 1000km without 5th gear.

Having returned home and done some research I find that this is a very very common fault. I've found a few guides online to help and decide to do it myself. I'm no stranger to spanner twirling and it looks like a pretty simple procedure.

However! (There's always a "but") I need to know from where and which parts to buy. I'm based in Netherlands and although there are lots of motorhomes here, I can't find online shops etc. which might be able to help.

If any of you have advice/tips/tricks etc., please put it in this thread. Part numbers and current prices would be very handy. I've read that there are different 5th ratios available for heavier MH's, part numbers for those would be great too.

In the meantime I will keep it updated here with my progress and post pictures of the repair (despite all the very helpful guides, I find no photos of the procedure at all).

Greets from Netherlands!
M

I have had 300 springs made for 4th&5th gear if any one wants some which is a lot cheaper than replacing the whole 5th gear

 

[JockandRita]

I have had 300 springs made for 4th&5th gear if any one wants some which is a lot cheaper than replacing the whole 5th gear

Sorry Stratford, could you elaborate a little please?

Do you mean the springs (with ball bearings) that sit in the recesses between the two parts of the synchro hub, (item No7 in my link above)?

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Melchior]

If that's what he means then I can't see that they will be useful. As per my photos, the damage is synchro teeth smashed off - no new springs are going to fix that.

 

[JockandRita]

If that's what he means then I can't see that they will be useful. As per my photos, the damage is synchro teeth smashed off - no new springs are going to fix that.

I agree Melchior.

I'm not sure what Stratford means, but those are the only springs in the assembly that I am aware of.

Any more info please Sratford4528?

Cheers,

Jock.

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[JockandRita]

Update.

Evening all.

I pulled onto my mate's workshop driveway at 12.15 today as arranged, and by 13.05 the new 5th gear, synchro hub, and a fill up with fully synthetic oil, was all done. This was followed by a 20 min test drive by yours truly. :thumb:

3 x teeth were missing from the old synchro hub. :-O Also, the synchro cone had been modified, compared to the old one. I'm having a gearbox oil change again, after a few hundred Kms.

Everything is tickety boo, and we are "cooking on gas again", so to speak, however, as expected, Rita and I are a bit lighter in the pocket now. oh:

Cheers for now,

Jock.

 

[NickR]

5th gear in Portugal

Hi, folks...first, thanks to all who have contributed to this forum on the above subject, a great help!!!

Mine (2000 2.8) went 2 weeks ago at 62k on the motorway here in PT, fortunately not too far from base camp. Much research with 3 fiat dealers and Essanjay finally found a friendly Fiat dealer in Portimao on the Algarve. Gears and synchro, total cost 650 euros, compared to 650 pounds in England.

Hopefully getting it sorted this weekend

Thanks again for all your input

 

[rainbow chasers]

Hi, folks...first, thanks to all who have contributed to this forum on the above subject, a great help!!!

Mine (2000 2.8) went 2 weeks ago at 62k on the motorway here in PT, fortunately not too far from base camp. Much research with 3 fiat dealers and Essanjay finally found a friendly Fiat dealer in Portimao on the Algarve. Gears and synchro, total cost 650 euros, compared to 650 pounds in England.

Hopefully getting it sorted this weekend

Thanks again for all your input

Great to hear you are sorted with a good deal - don't forget to modify the drain pipe to prevent reoccurence.

Common solution is an extended pipe attached and fed behind the gearbox onto the road.

 

[JockandRita]

clipped....... don't forget to modify the drain pipe to prevent reoccurence.

Common solution is an extended pipe attached and fed behind the gearbox onto the road.

Sorry,

Which pipe, and what's it for please? Are we talking of the 230/244 Ducato models, or the X250 model?

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[freelanderuk]

Jock , I think he means the water drain pipe from the windscreen scuttle panel that goes down by the gear box, there are some vans with short drains and this allows rain water to drain on to the gearbox

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[JockandRita]

Jock , I think he means the water drain pipe from the windscreen scuttle panel that goes down by the gear box, there are some vans with short drains and this allows rain water to drain on to the gearbox

Thanks Chris. :thumb:

I reckon that applies to the coach built models, ie, those with the original cabs.

Saves me going out to have a look in this current pi##y weather.

Cheers for now,

Jock.

 

[Melchior]

Are we definitely talking X230/244 regarding the drain pipe? I didn't see one on mine and am unclear how a drain pipe can affect 5th gear? Are we saying that rainwater is somehow getting into the gearbox, mixing with the oil and therefore screwing 5th?

If this is really the case, I will add it to my post a page or so ago which lists preventative actions.

@ Jock - glad you got yours fixed and so fast. Wish I could have done mine so quickly (if I ever have to do it again, I will know exactly what to expect and it won't take 3 weeks ) Did you have the long or short ratio? With a van as big as yours I would expect the short to be a good choice. I'm VERY glad I didn't go for the short in ours, having done a couple of long trips since the replacement.

 

[JockandRita]

@ Jock - glad you got yours fixed and so fast. Wish I could have done mine so quickly (if I ever have to do it again, I will know exactly what to expect and it won't take 3 weeks ) Did you have the long or short ratio? With a van as big as yours I would expect the short to be a good choice. I'm VERY glad I didn't go for the short in ours, having done a couple of long trips since the replacement.

Morning Melchior.

I'm just lucky that I have a pal who as well as running his own car repair business, also works on commercial vehicles for the Royal Mail Fleet workshops, here in Cambridgshire.

When sourcing the parts through Fiat Commercial (Ford & Slater), there were notes on their system next to my chassis number, depicting the higher ratio, (58 x 35, I think?), so I stuck with that, and like you, am glad that I did. I definitely wouldn't be wanting to run at an extra 600rpm in top gear.
I've got another 350Kms to do before we change the gear oil again.

I am very pleased to have my 5th gear back again. :thumb:

Cheers for now,

Jock.

 

[TheBig1]

bump for another member with 5th gear failure

 

[jhorsf]

I wonder if Jim could make some of the post a how to do sticky?

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[JockandRita]

bump for another member with 5th gear failure

:Sad:

Dig deep. At least with your knowledge, skills, and equipment, you'll be able to have it all sorted within an hour or so, once the new parts are in your hand. :thumb:

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[TheDentons]

we now have the same problem dropped the gearbox oil it has been mixing with water :Sad:

 

[TheDentons]

Replaced 5th gear working fine but still a bit lumpy going into gear told I need a new syncro hub anyone know where I can get one appart from fiatoh:

Part no 9463263388

 

[TheBig1]

Have you looked at
http://www.axel-augustin.de/shop2/F...earbox-parts-5-speed:::3_168_74965_74974.html

249Euro

but confirm its the correct one for your box as for some reason FIAT have a bad habbit of changing parts for different models

 

[gus-lopez]

Is this fault only found on the 2.5+ engined models?

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[JockandRita]

Is this fault only found on the 2.5+ engined models?

No Gus. It appears to afflict any MH based on the Ducato 230 series, using that particular gearbox, regardless of the engine size.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[gus-lopez]

It is just that mine doesn't have the black steel cover as end plate as it is all aluminium, & the top of it has the right hand engine mounting sandwiching the end plate so it can't be removed as others have shown without supporting engine & removing it first ?
Mines the 1,9 normally aspirated Fiat diesel engine.

 

[pappajohn]

It is just that mine doesn't have the black steel cover as end plate as it is all aluminium, & the top of it has the right hand engine mounting sandwiching the end plate so it can't be removed as others have shown without supporting engine & removing it first ?
Mines the 1,9 normally aspirated Fiat diesel engine.

Have you counted the gears ?

As far as i was aware fifth gear was a fiat afterthought which is why its in a seperate casing bolted to the end of the box....cheaper to do that than make a new box at masive expense.

I dont think fiat ever made an intergrated five speed box.

Its even possible the box isnt from a ducato but has been modified to fit.

 

[gus-lopez]

Have you counted the gears ?

As far as i was aware fifth gear was a fiat afterthought which is why its in a seperate casing bolted to the end of the box....cheaper to do that than make a new box at masive expense.

I dont think fiat ever made an intergrated five speed box.

Its even possible the box isnt from a ducato but has been modified to fit.

I shall have a good look this week . Definitely 5 . Just a thought has everybody else got the dipstick on the diff ?

 

[B-well]

Just thought i will add my issues to this thread, changed 5th gear in June 2014 couple teeth missing and reversed the synchro hub as one side teeth unused. done couple of ski trips 2015 and now no 5th gear drive coming back from Alps. I can select 5th with no probs or resistance but just high revs no drive.
Have taken end plate off, all teeth in place both 5th gear and on synchro however found 5th gear is turning on shaft, suspect splines gone. question is does g/box need to be removed to replace this shaft, appears to be a locking half moon shaped retainer clip which holds shaft bearing in place, My thinking is taking 5th gear off and try to withdraw this shaft, any one had any experience of this.

5th gear replacement may not be just replacing the gears and synchro in this case if the 5th gear carrier shaft is liable to damage. any comments / advice welcome.

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[JockandRita]

Sorry B-well,

I'm not able to help you, but posting to say, unlucky.

I was strongly advised against reversing the synchro hub, due to the possibility that we might be going down the replacement route some months later anyway.

Good luck with the task in hand. .

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[TheCaller]

Have taken end plate off, all teeth in place both 5th gear and on synchro however found 5th gear is turning on shaft, suspect splines gone. question is does g/box need to be removed to replace this shaft,

I'm fairly sure I read somewhere (probably early in this thread?!) that Fiat took their 4 speed box & extended the existing shafts to bring them outside the original casing & fitted a fifth gear. That suggests that the damaged shaft you are looking at has the other gears on it inside the main part of the box, so the chances of being able to change that without removing the gearbox sound very remote.

You need someone who can confirm that the shaft with the syncro on it does indeed go right through the main box.

 

[B-well]

Sorry B-well,

I'm not able to help you, but posting to say, unlucky.

I was strongly advised against reversing the synchro hub, due to the possibility that we might be going down the replacement route some months later anyway.

Good luck with the task in hand. .Cheers,Jock.

Okay update removed end plate and found that the 5th gear synchro teeth are just spinning round, it appears that this is heat shrunk onto the gear and spot welded. Fiat parts Canterbury have acknowledged a warranty replacement but no 5th gear located in UK so on order from Italy, approx 1 week under VOR. This gear was Fitted in June 2014 and only covered 3000 miles to failure,(This was on returning from Ski trip ) limped home in 4th.
The main synchro hub gear teeth were unused so why they were reversed at the time.

 

[Big Lad]

My Ducato popped out of 5th this week... i was hoping it was a one off but by reading through this thread i better prepare my wallet for a battering by the looks of it..

 

[Lee27]

Hi

Just done nearly 900 miles in forth gear due to losing 5th gear, seems different to most; i'm sure it didn't jump out of gear but rather just started acting as if 5th gear is another neutral, similar to what B-well states. 2002 x244 (fiat ePER implies model 245).

My end cover isn't black as pictured, it's alloy (thanks for posting pics Melchior), bit gutted at it going really as I am aware of the issue and have always observed the precautions including changing gearbox oil every couple of years or so.

B-well, can you elaborate a little please, are you saying in this instance it is the synchro that needs replacing due to it becoming separated as opposed to teeth breaking?

Thanks
Lee

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