Defibrillators at Rallies Anyone.

[joka250]

At my last first aid at work update training ( which was 12 years ago !) I remember being told not to bother with mouth to mouth just do the compressions. I am sure you know more than me so perhaps I will get a mouthpiece or mouth guard to carry around with me again. I chucked the one I had.
Nice to meet you at Malvern by the way

Maybe 5 years since last training at our local hospital but same advice given.

 

[Ivory55]

It would help if it was kept the same then everyone would know and then have confidence in what they was doing

 

[Blossom]

That's a yes from me Jim. Happy to contribute.

 

[Riverbankannie]

If you are trained then you can carry out rescue breaths, if not trained then the advice is chest compressions only.

That makes sense as only worth stopping the compressions if you know what to do to get best chance of some oxygen in lungs.

 

[Baileysbus]

Count us in too @Jim. Chances are we'll not be at many rallies but it's a great idea and I'm willing to chip in once you've got a funding page sorted. I'll be interested to see what type you get and where from. We could use one in our village which is mostly populated with "people of a certain age" ........ although as has been said, it can happen to anyone.

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[sueandjohn]

Count us in too @Jim. Chances are we'll not be at many rallies but it's a great idea and I'm willing to chip in once you've got a funding page sorted. I'll be interested to see what type you get and where from. We could use one in our village which is mostly populated with "people of a certain age" ........ although as has been said, it can happen to anyone.

We have first responders in our village and a couple of defib machines. Vital service when you are in a rural area. Good luck with your village

 

[The Wino]

I was told the same that compressions was more important as it kept the blood moving to the brain. When you stop to do the breaths it was not getting any blood to it.

I was told the same on my course and that the most important thing is to make sure someone phones 999 !!!!

 

[carolyn]

This thread is proving increasingly interesting and showing that there are quite a few of us with different levels of skills. There is clearly a lot of willingness to help. Doing chest compressions well is very tiring in a short space of time so a team approach is great. From now on I will make sure the Marshalls know what I can do rather than just assuming. I rather assumed that if people had been taught chest compressions they'd been taught the breathing but I had forgotten that was not always the case.

 

[swanseajack13]

@Jim will you dress up in a nurses uniform when you use it ray dilly dilly

 

[BILL 875]

Good idea ill chuck in £20, i assume it would safe around plenty of wine and beer..
Bill

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[PORKSTER]

Good idea

 

[scottie]

Happy to contribute

 

[Hettie's Crew]

Looks like they are not cheap, as you’d expect. We would need some good guidance on which one to choose and I suspect St John Ambulance to be a good place to start.
http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/products/Defibrillators/

 

[hilldweller]

The thought of FUNsters running amok with high voltage electrical equipment fills me with dread and fear.

You can be sure, half the time they'd get the polarity reversed.

 

[TheDogMan]

I was told the same that compressions was more important as it kept the blood moving to the brain. When you stop to do the breaths it was not getting any blood to it.

We had training session with a ex NHS trainer, be bought a dummy with him for CPR practice and as you say they do not bother with mouth to mouth, as soon as someone stops breathing CPR is a must until the onsite AED arrives and is ready to have pads placed on the patient, the AED then takes over and speaks to you, if the heart has stopped it will tell you to stand back and will shock the patient, it will then check for a response if non it will repeat the process, someone should take charge of this situation and someone should clear audience especially if its a female. The AED's are not rechargable they have a lithium battery which needs replacing every 4 to 5 years according to any usage, pads have to be replaced every 2 year ish they are use by dated.

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[TheDogMan]

Looks like they are not cheap, as you’d expect. We would need some good guidance on which one to choose and I suspect St John Ambulance to be a good place to start.
http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/products/Defibrillators/

Been through this myself don't use St John Ambulance too expensive. and a lot of sites look good value BUT put VAT on at checkout.

 

[joka250]

Can I suggest we speak to www.heartrhythymnalliance.org good source of info and supply.

 

[Abacist]

Not so sure.

The ones in public places maybe as they are only accessible with a code when you’re on the phone to emergency services and can be talked through what to do.

We have one at our rugby club and I know only nominated people who have received training are allowed to use it.

I think it depends where you are and where they were sourced from. We have 3 in South Brent all via The Heart Foundation and their rule is that, to be funded, the boxes must be open access at all time so anyone can open the box and use the defibrillator machine. I had training on CPR and the machine on Friday by an Accident & Emergency consultant / Air Ambulance Doctor and it is very easy to use. The machine talks to you and tells you what to do and the pads have pictures to show you where to place them. No idea what they cost but brilliant bit of kit. They come with wipes and face masks if anyone is reticent about doing mouth to mouth or if the patient has been sick etc.

 

[Abacist]

Don’t think I’d want to trust my life to something from eBay/Amazon.

If you need treatment from a defibrillator then you are dead and anything done is better than nothing!

 

[Abacist]

This is one of the machines that the British Heart Foundation recommend and grant fund and of which we have 3 in our village.

https://www.aedexpert.co.uk/cu-medi...FekjoClBjrXiAWhEUEqzeEPvgMnH-fBwaAsHOEALw_wcB

Cost £1,140 inc VAT

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[Abacist]

The A & E specialist said that the next advice to be issued will likely drop mouth to mouth. CPR will still only achieve 30% of the blood pumping that a functioning heart could achieve. The chest needs to be compressed by one third of its normal size to achieve the right compression of the heart. It is hard work and after 2 minutes the person doing CPR will start to be come less effective so its important to change over to keep good compressions going until the paramedic arrives which could easily be 10 minutes or maybe even longer in a rural situation. 100 compressions per minute is the required rate at which to work.

 

[Hettie's Crew]

If you need treatment from a defibrillator then you are dead and anything done is better than nothing!

If you need treatment from a defibrillator you are not dead yet but lucky enough to be in ventricular fibrillation. If you have no heart beat of any kind (Asystole), you’re dead.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

An article on insurance implications. Yes, I'm aware that it's about a nursery but the same things would apply to any private organisation.

https://www.dot2dot.org.uk/defibril...-your-public-liability-insurance-be-affected/

Another one with some good information about the governance that's required. You can't just buy one and stick it in a cupboard.

https://www.communityheartbeat.org.uk/frequently-asked-questions


Both articles raise obvious issues if the units are not to be installed in fixed locations.

The idea is good but there's hell of a lot more to it than just raise the money and buy a couple of them.

 

[Abacist]

If you need treatment from a defibrillator you are not dead yet but lucky enough to be in ventricular fibrillation. If you have no heart beat of any kind (Asystole), you’re dead.

Well that's how the A & E consultant described it to us. With no assistance in the form of Defib and CPR then you die - with certainty - so any help is better than no help.

 

[carolyn]

Well that's how the A & E consultant described it to us. With no assistance in the form of Defib and CPR then you die - with certainty - so any help is better than no help.

Exactly!

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[Abacist]

An article on insurance implications. Yes, I'm aware that it's about a nursery but the same things would apply to any private organisation.

https://www.dot2dot.org.uk/defibril...-your-public-liability-insurance-be-affected/

Another one with some good information about the governance that's required. You can't just buy one and stick it in a cupboard.

https://www.communityheartbeat.org.uk/frequently-asked-questions


Both articles raise obvious issues if the units are not to be installed in fixed locations.

The idea is good but there's hell of a lot more to it than just raise the money and buy a couple of them.

Disappointing that the jobsworths have to put a dampener on things. Dot2Dot insurance for nurseries say that in the event of an incident someone from the nursery must take charge and record everything! The Defibs are put in public places at the heart of communities like nurseries and schools. They don't have to supervise their use and wouldn't be there at 10pm if someone collapsed. Really disappointing!

I would imagine that Jim has Public Liability insurance and can get a maintenance contract for the machine and rally marshalls can have training etc. There should be nothing insurmountable. The shop doesn't say joe public can't buy one!

 

[Hettie's Crew]

Well that's how the A & E consultant described it to us. With no assistance in the form of Defib and CPR then you die - with certainty - so any help is better than no help.

100% agree but a defibrillator is not going help if in Asystole.
Definitely think it’s a good idea to have one at rallies though as anyone can use them and may save someone’s life.

 

[Abacist]

Our training took place in my son's pharmacy during the lunch hour and we were done within the hour having started late and finished in about 50 minutes with 10 people trained of whom a good half had a go on Resussianne and the Defibrillator machine using the pads etc. Plenty of time for all questions and answers to be dealt with.

 

[carolyn]

The point of the machine is to shock the person out of VF before it becomes asystole, that is what the natural progression is. The only people who can help once you are in asystole are the clever people with syringes of adrenaline and other magic potions, not us out in a field!
I think we're all worrying too much, if I collapse I would much rather someone had a go than was too afraid to try as they'd not been on a course.

 

[joka250]

This all seems to be getting very complicated and drawn out. If a defib is used it wil give instructions and not function unless absolutely necessary. No training is required, but obviously is always useful. Cardiac arrest results in more deaths per year than all cancers and more besides. Less than 10% of arrests survive and many of them suffer some brain damage.
I don't know the implications of insurance if the forum acquires one but it really shouldn't impact. As a surviver of cardiac arrest and having been defibbed 18 times before getting fully responsive heart beat I feel reasonably well able to discuss the subject. If you administer shock therapy you can do very little damage if any but you may save a life. In Swedenwhere public AEDs are common survival rates are close to 50%, to me this is indicative of gross failure here.
I think no grants will be available for private purchase and use but I would hope to be able to get some discount. VAT is unavoidable (a disgrace) but a cabinet based system is not the way to go.
I apologise if I upset anybody but I don't understand why we have generated so many pages of comments. A good number of us are prepared to contribute, presumably Jim can clarify the insurance situation, some members have training a few more would not go amiss and apart from approaching suppliers that should be it surely.

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