Dealer leaves us in the lurch

[The Wino]

As I said I don't think lowdhams are responsible for repair outside the first year or two the claim will be under the manufacturer's damp warranty. By the way makingtrax how did you find lowdhams hab service charges!!!!!. I tried to get MMM to do an article about hab service charges and how much they vary they had no interest whatsoever in upsetting their advertisers

 

[BwB]

When was it exactly you found out they weren't listed?

The first hab service was around Aug 2018 so it would have been a month or two before that. Can't give you and exact date, sorry.

 

[MichaelT]

From personal experience we found Lowdhams OK to deal with and had no issues apart from workshop time to get some warranty job done. As others have said up thread the water ingress is with Knaus not Lowdhams so as they are no longer dealers I guess Knaus have said sorry we will not pay you do to the work can you ask the customer to go to another dealer. Personally I would go another dealer (SMC/Don Amott) or another closer to you and speak to them about getting the job done. They will obviously want to inspect it themselves to see what is needed then they can get a claim in to Knaus. Again get the original claim number from Lowdhams as a reference. Try this person at Knaus also to speak to Simona Hansbauer <s.hansbauer@knaustabbert.de> if he is still there he is helpful.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Ultimately it’s the dealers responsibility if under warranty with them.

Liability however is a different matter.

I would contact Knaus and see if it was reported.

I think I would be looking at making a trip to Knaus factory. Then claim back from Lowdhams

 

[jongood]

This is what I was wondering Lenny. Most people on here seem to think it's Lowdham's responsibility. How do find out?

Its defiinitely Lowdhams. Honestly 5 months its legal time

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[Flook]

Having been in the service trade for many years, and being an agent for many big companies, the only advice I can give is this. The responsibility lays with the company you purchased it from.
The reason I say this is this, I was in the Domestic Appliance trade, I appreciate the price difference, but if you buy an expensive SMEG washing machine from say Curries and it fails for some reason, you contact the place from home you purchased it to get it repaired.In this instance Curries would contact SMEG, SMEG contact their local agent with a job number and the local agent contact the purchaser ASAP to make an appointment to visit to ascertain actual problem and sort it out to customer satisfaction.

Similar applies to your motorhome, should it fail (which it has) you contact the seller, it is their responsibility to contact the manufacturer with the details of fault, request a repair number for the paperwork and repair your vehicle.

Service repair work should not be a pain in the backside, if it is difficult for the repairer that is the nature of some work. Its tough at times, but the dealer should be able to handle it with a full workshop to hand. In my instance and all other Domestic Appliance repairers all we have to hand in the main is what we carry and your kitchen.

I wish you all the best, do what Jim has said, now is the time to get it sorted, yes contact the manufacturer, as the time it has taken is now far too long for the usual service procedure to be carried out, also the loss to the supplier of the agency does not help you one bit. If this had happened to me with my old agency with SMEG, they would have removed me instantly from their recommended list and informed the Association of the severe bad quality I had supplied them, and I would have been taken to task by that Association.

By the way, I am now retired, and have been since 2012, but certain things have not changed.

Flook

PS, I hope what I have said makes sense, it does to me, but I appreciate it may not to some.

 

[Makingtrax]

As I said I don't think lowdhams are responsible for repair outside the first year or two the claim will be under the manufacturer's damp warranty. By the way makingtrax how did you find lowdhams hab service charges!!!!!. I tried to get MMM to do an article about hab service charges and how much they vary they had no interest whatsoever in upsetting their advertisers

All their work is expensive, so I've only had the damp check done there every year to keep the damp warranty conditions valid. Some good that's done me.

 

[Makingtrax]

Having been in the service trade for many years, and being an agent for many big companies, the only advice I can give is this. The responsibility lays with the company you purchased it from.
The reason I say this is this, I was in the Domestic Appliance trade, I appreciate the price difference, but if you buy an expensive SMEG washing machine from say Curries and it fails for some reason, you contact the place from home you purchased it to get it repaired.In this instance Curries would contact SMEG, SMEG contact their local agent with a job number and the local agent contact the purchaser ASAP to make an appointment to visit to ascertain actual problem and sort it out to customer satisfaction.

Similar applies to your motorhome, should it fail (which it has) you contact the seller, it is their responsibility to contact the manufacturer with the details of fault, request a repair number for the paperwork and repair your vehicle.

Service repair work should not be a pain in the backside, if it is difficult for the repairer that is the nature of some work. Its tough at times, but the dealer should be able to handle it with a full workshop to hand. In my instance and all other Domestic Appliance repairers all we have to hand in the main is what we carry and your kitchen.

I wish you all the best, do what Jim has said, now is the time to get it sorted, yes contact the manufacturer, as the time it has taken is now far too long for the usual service procedure to be carried out, also the loss to the supplier of the agency does not help you one bit. If this had happened to me with my old agency with SMEG, they would have removed me instantly from their recommended list and informed the Association of the severe bad quality I had supplied them, and I would have been taken to task by that Association.

By the way, I am now retired, and have been since 2012, but certain things have not changed.

Flook

PS, I hope what I have said makes sense, it does to me, but I appreciate it may not to some.

Many thanks for that.

 

[Makingtrax]

As I said I don't think lowdhams are responsible for repair outside the first year or two the claim will be under the manufacturer's damp warranty. By the way makingtrax how did you find lowdhams hab service charges!!!!!. I tried to get MMM to do an article about hab service charges and how much they vary they had no interest whatsoever in upsetting their advertisers

It's strange how opinion is divided on here about whose responsibility the damp warranty is after the inititial general warranty period is over.

Wonder if anyone has a definitive ruling on this and from what source.

 

[eddie]

I would copy this thread to the MD of Lowdhams and Knaus, give them five days to suggest a solution to avoid further damage to their reputations. I'd also start a "Unhappy Lowdhams Facebook Group" and get people to share their experiences with Lowdhams.

If you get no response a Solicitors letter to Lowdhams stating that the contract is with them, they have five days to suggest a remedy and a timescale in which it will be implemented, after which you will get the necessary repairs carried out by a third party and they will be responsible for all costs - including travel etc.

What is the point of that? You want Lowdhams to help you "Out them" on social media and what have they got left to loose?

Peoples expectations of what they are entitled to and how easy it is to gain compensation, costs, awards for stress are vastly over egged in the media.

As it is about a million people on Fun now know that the OP's van is worthless unless it is repaired, something has gone wrong in the command chain and it needs fixing.

Fixed, the OP has a usable van that he could hope to sell on when he is ready, without a huge financial loss, which had to be the right outcome.

Writing to the MD asking him for help, it the right procedure

Writing to the MD enclosing a link slagging his company off, threatening five days or worse will come is more likely to result in a very drawn out process.

If anyone when trying to get assistance from me threatens me or my staff in any way I simply refuse to co-operate what so ever pointing out that if we are heading for litigation we will need to let our Solicitors handle it to avoid us saying or doing anything that may put us further into conflict (not that this happens very often you understand) Or we offer that they can stop being daft, make an appointment and we will fix whatever they think shouldn't have broken after only 16 years

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[eddie]

It's strange how opinion is divided on here about whose responsibility the damp warranty is after the inititial general warranty period is over.

Wonder if anyone has a definitive ruling on this and from what source.

How much money did you give to the manufacturer?

If nothing?

No contract

 

[SpeedyDux]

Water ingress is a defect. Supplying a MH with a defect is breach of the contract of sale on the part of the dealer. The dealer is failing to remedy the breach, so Traxy has up to 6 years from the original date of contract (i.e. purchase Order date) to make a claim for damages for breach of contract against the dealer, representing the actual cost of repair + out of pocket expenses. Traxy can get the repairs done either by another Knaus dealer or any competent workshop. It will be helpful to get photos and damp readings as evidence. As long as the repairs are carried out at reasonable cost there should be not much difficulty from a legal viewpoint. If Lowdhams fail to pay all or part of the claim after requested to do so in writing, or make a derisory offer, sue them in the County Court. If it is a sizeable claim, use a solicitor but otherwise if it is in the Small Claims Track you can do it yourself.

Manufacturer's warranties give additional rights to the customer but that is a separate issue. The additional rights depend entirely on the terms and conditions of the warranty. The primary contract is with the dealer.

 

[Makingtrax]

Water ingress is a defect. Supplying a MH with a defect is breach of the contract of sale on the part of the dealer. The dealer is failing to remedy the breach, so Traxy has up to 6 years from the original date of contract (i.e. purchase Order date) to make a claim for damages for breach of contract against the dealer, representing the actual cost of repair + out of pocket expenses. Traxy can get the repairs done either by another Knaus dealer or any competent workshop. It will be helpful to get photos and damp readings as evidence. As long as the repairs are carried out at reasonable cost there should be not much difficulty from a legal viewpoint. If Lowdhams fail to pay all or part of the claim after requested to do so in writing, or make a derisory offer, sue them in the County Court. If it is a sizeable claim, use a solicitor but otherwise if it is in the Small Claims Track you can do it yourself.

Manufacturer's warranties give additional rights to the customer but that is a separate issue. The additional rights depend entirely on the terms and conditions of the warranty. The primary contract is with the dealer.

Thanks Speedy for that knowledgeable reply. How can you prove that a defect, 3 years on, was present at the time of purchase though? Personally, I think it's likely, because the rear camera was factory fitted and hasn't been touched since. But they'd argue that there was no damp shown up in the first two year checks.

 

[eddie]

Thanks Speedy for that knowledgeable reply. How can you prove that a defect, 3 years on, was present at the time of purchase though? Personally, I think it's likely, because the rear camera was factory fitted and hasn't been touched since. But they'd argue that there was no damp shown up in the first two year checks.

You'd also have to prove that you'd never clouted it, reversed up to some thing which could have disturbed the seal, or that no one else has messed with it.

as Jim said, an honest letter to the MD asking for help is more likely to get a positive response

Anyone who is married knows that being asked to do something "nicely" is more conducive to getting "jobs done" than being shouted out that just ends up in a row

 

[Makingtrax]

You'd also have to prove that you'd never clouted it, reversed up to some thing which could have disturbed the seal, or that no one else has messed with it.

as Jim said, an honest letter to the MD asking for help is more likely to get a positive response

Anyone who is married knows that being asked to do something "nicely" is more conducive to getting "jobs done" than being shouted out that just ends up in a row

Yeah, followed that advice Eddie. Have done what Jim suggested.

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[SpeedyDux]

Thanks Speedy for that knowledgeable reply. How can you prove that a defect, 3 years on, was present at the time of purchase though? Personally, I think it's likely, because the rear camera was factory fitted and hasn't been touched since. But they'd argue that there was no damp shown up in the first two year checks.

If the defect is a latent defect i.e. not apparent immediately but manifested itself later that is not a problem. It's still a breach of the contract of sale. The key issue is the quality of the goods you are entitled to in the circumstances. Water ingress in its early years is a significant defect in a MH due to the consequential structural damage over time.

If the defect was in fact discoverable earlier, the reasonable inference that might be drawn is that Lowdhams missed the damp in the first 2 checks which I assume you paid them to carry out.

Based on that you might consider adding a claim for a refund of all or a substantial part of the charges for the hab services that they failed to carry out with the necessary diligence and care. That's a separate claim for breach of each hab service agreement to add to main claim. But only if the repairers tell you that the cause of the leak had probably been there from Day One when it left the Knaus factory.

If you need to issue a Claim in the Court, in that situation you probably need a witness statement from the repairers anyway covering what they found that was defective and explaining the scope of the repair work needed. Assume that the District Judge hasn't a clue about Motorhomes and related damp problems so will need a clear explanation.

 

[SpeedyDux]

You'd also have to prove that you'd never clouted it, reversed up to some thing which could have disturbed the seal, or that no one else has messed with it.

The onus of proof regarding causation of damage otherwise than the alleged defect rests with Lowdhams. Traxy does not need to prove a negative.

 

[MichaelT]

If the defect is a latent defect i.e. not apparent immediately but manifested itself later that is not a problem. It's still a breach of the contract of sale. The key issue is the quality of the goods you are entitled to in the circumstances. Water ingress in its early years is a significant defect in a MH due to the consequential structural damage over time.

If the defect was in fact discoverable earlier, the reasonable inference that might be drawn is that Lowdhams missed the damp in the first 2 checks which I assume you paid them to carry out.

Based on that you might consider adding a claim for a refund of all or a substantial part of the charges for the hab services that they failed to carry out with the necessary diligence and care. That's a separate claim for breach of each hab service agreement to add to main claim. But only if the repairers tell you that the cause of the leak had probably been there from Day One when it left the Knaus factory.

If you need to issue a Claim in the Court, in that situation you probably need a witness statement from the repairers anyway covering what they found that was defective and explaining the scope of the repair work needed. Assume that the District Judge hasn't a clue about Motorhomes and related damp problems so will need a clear explanation.

Presumably Lowdhams issued the damp report as part of the habitation checks proving moisture levels, in fact for a Knaus you get a certificate stating it is water tight. As other have said best way is to be polite and play nice or it will just end up messy and no one benefits.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Thanks Speedy for that knowledgeable reply. How can you prove that a defect, 3 years on, was present at the time of purchase though? Personally, I think it's likely, because the rear camera was factory fitted and hasn't been touched since. But they'd argue that there was no damp shown up in the first two year checks.

It could just have been a sealant degradation over time since the previous damp checks. A small hole, leak. Not detectable or within acceptable moisture levels and then starts to become worse and detected at the 3rd check.

 

[bellabee]

Sorry to hear about your problems. Have you actually contacted Knaus about this? Maybe you've already told us that, but I admit I haven't read every post in detail. I have no experience of Knaus - only Hymer.
Hymer damp checks are recorded on the Hymer centralised computer system, by the dealer conducting the check. If Knaus is the same, then your problems should be noted on their system.
In the case of Hymer, you are able to take your van to the factory at Bad Waldsee for damp checks and warranty work.
I don't think you've anything to lose by contacting them. A trip to Bavaria is always a pleasure and my be the most hassle free option of having the work carried out.
I hope you get it sorted.

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[Lowdhams]

Lowdhams hope that the statement below explains our current position with regards to Knaus

For over 18 years Lowdhams have supplied Knaus vehicles to our customers however we took a difficult decision around 3 years ago to relinquish the Knaus franchise for various commercial reasons. During the period since this decision we were still able to look after our customers for servicing and repairs however Knaus have now stated that we can no longer carry out any warranty work on vehicles we retailed once the vehicles are over 24 months old which mainly affects the extra moisture ingress warranty on the vehicles. This is a decision taken by the manufacturer and obtaining spare parts and having any warranty claims accepted has become increasingly difficult. A Knaus motorhome comes with a manufacturers backed warranty and is European wide so there should be no issue having necessary work being carried out at a suitable Knaus dealer. The Knaus website is showing 17 alternative locations in the UK with the closest being 14 miles from our location. When Knaus went into liquidation in 2008 Lowdhams were the only dealer left in the UK that covered all of our existing customers warranty claims at a huge cost to our company as there was no manufacturer to recover the costs. We took this action so our customers were not left out of pocket in a difficult period and did not have a motorhome which they could not get repaired. On this occasion the warranty is still fully intact with the manufacturer and any Knaus dealer should be able to honour the warranty for the vehicle. We are obviously sorry that any of our customers have been inconvenienced and Lowdhams will always honour our legal obligations however, the decision which means we can no longer do warranty work is out of our hands and taken by the manufacturer. I hope this clarifies the situation and I have been assured that all customers ongoing warranty claims will be honoured by Knaus however we are happy to help our customers where we can in the future.

Kind regard


Lowdhams

 

[Phill D]

Thank you for explaining that Lowdhams , it does explain to us why things are as they are. but i would have to ask why that was not communicated "clearly and effectively" to your customer in this case.

if it had been then probably all this thread could have been avoided.

 

[The Wino]

Good to see a reply from Lowdhams all they need to do now is explain why it took 5months to say that they couldn't do the warranty work.

 

[peterc10]

He doesn’t have a contract with the manufacturer

That is not necessarily so now. Section 30 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 deals with when a guarantee is given by a third party guarantor, such as a manufacturer. Subsection 3 of this Section of the Act states

"The guarantee takes effect, at the time the goods are delivered, as a contractual obligation owed by the guarantor under the conditions set out in the guarantee statement and in any associated advertising."

 

[Nanniemate]

Park it out the front of their showroom with a big sign saying exactly when you contacted them each occasion and that they have not acted, engage with every customer who visits (in a friendly way) would you like to see my van sad about the problems and lack of action from the dealer...….....Could be entertaining and if you want company maybe arrange a meet outside of their show room I'd come I hate dodgy dealers taking advantage Good luck

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[Phill D]

having the latest info from Lowdens if i were the OP i would call the most convenient Knaus dealer to get the van looked at and confirm they will take it on. If it is agreed to get sorted with another Dealer within warranty i'd get it fixed and move on...

 

[PeteH]

Ref; Lowdhams, I have never had dealings with them, so cannot comment. However less than a mile down the road are Fullers.

Fullers went the extra mile when the Fiat/Rapido we had, had serious Gear Box issues. Involving 2 gearbox rebuilds inside 18 months. They virtually rebuilt the Transmission including new clutch pack, AND when we considered another purchase, which fell through because of a financing issue, on our part, had offered me the best P-Ex of any on a `van they knew the history of, another dealer may well have shied away?.

Completely unlike the (So Called) Dealership we purchased the latest from. In the modern vernacular they are "Pants".

 

[Makingtrax]

Lowdhams hope that the statement below explains our current position with regards to Knaus

For over 18 years Lowdhams have supplied Knaus vehicles to our customers however we took a difficult decision around 3 years ago to relinquish the Knaus franchise for various commercial reasons. During the period since this decision we were still able to look after our customers for servicing and repairs however Knaus have now stated that we can no longer carry out any warranty work on vehicles we retailed once the vehicles are over 24 months old which mainly affects the extra moisture ingress warranty on the vehicles. This is a decision taken by the manufacturer and obtaining spare parts and having any warranty claims accepted has become increasingly difficult. A Knaus motorhome comes with a manufacturers backed warranty and is European wide so there should be no issue having necessary work being carried out at a suitable Knaus dealer. The Knaus website is showing 17 alternative locations in the UK with the closest being 14 miles from our location. When Knaus went into liquidation in 2008 Lowdhams were the only dealer left in the UK that covered all of our existing customers warranty claims at a huge cost to our company as there was no manufacturer to recover the costs. We took this action so our customers were not left out of pocket in a difficult period and did not have a motorhome which they could not get repaired. On this occasion the warranty is still fully intact with the manufacturer and any Knaus dealer should be able to honour the warranty for the vehicle. We are obviously sorry that any of our customers have been inconvenienced and Lowdhams will always honour our legal obligations however, the decision which means we can no longer do warranty work is out of our hands and taken by the manufacturer. I hope this clarifies the situation and I have been assured that all customers ongoing warranty claims will be honoured by Knaus however we are happy to help our customers where we can in the future.

Kind regard


Lowdhams

Thank you for that. After 5 months it's good to get a fuller explanation.

As outlined in my recent email to you, most of this problem has been caused by a complete lack of communication on your part, regarding:

• the negotiations with Knaus over the type of repair needed
• the reasons for the 5 month delay during which time you were an authorised dealer
• details of your intended action to find a solution

Despite my phone calls I've just been kept out of the loop until very recently.

What is clear now from an email today is that you do intend to arrange for another dealer to fix this issue and I thank you for that.

Finally, I refer you to an excellent post on this thread that just shows how important it is to have good communication. If I'd received this in the last week and your explanation above, I would not have felt the need to ask for assistance on this forum.

We've sent off the file and made an appointment for you to see XYZ who is the nearest Knaus dealer to your home. As you are our customer, we want to see this through to a satisfactory conclusion, so do let us know how you get on and get right back to us in the unlikely event you have any problems.

 

[Silver-Fox]

We are obviously sorry that any of our customers have been inconvenienced and Lowdhams will always honour our legal obligations however, the decision which means we can no longer do warranty work is out of our hands and taken by the manufacturer. I hope this clarifies the situation and I have been assured that all customers ongoing warranty claims will be honoured by Knaus however we are happy to help our customers where we can in the future.

It’s a shame the op wasn’t informed of the situation a good while ago.

That wouldn’t have put doubt in people’s minds that have access to an open forum that puts yourselves into a bad light.

I do applaud you posting here and would hope you go the extra mile to help the op resolve the matter.

Disappointing that the Lowdhams poster didn’t leave a name and stayed anonymous.

 

[Lowdhams]

The situation with the Knaus warranty was a very recent development and only became apparent due to the exceptional time it was taking for warranty claims to be dealt with. We were not aware of any official notification to our company with regards to no longer being able to carry our repairs until one of the Directors spoke to Knaus directly. This has meant that some customers and claims have been left in limbo and had we been given prior notice we would have acted differently. We are in the process of informing all the affected customers however felt it would be beneficial to put the latest news on here.

We are sorry for any inconvenience this has caused any of our Knaus motorhome customers, but it is something that is completely out of our control.

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