Controversial! Why Solar can damage your batteries!

[jonandshell]

If its any consolation, I can't make sense of women!!!!!!!

 

[dabhand]

Hi there are two methods.

1. Use a battery hydrometer to !measure the specific gravity of the cell electrolyte. A reading of 1.265 to 1.275 is fully charged.

2. Measure the open circuit voltage of the batteries. With everything switched off, measure the battery voltage with a multimeter. 12.7 volts is fully charged.

It is important to note that after charging, a 'surface' voltage can be present giving a false high voltage reading. Switching on a light for a couple of minutes reduces the battery voltage to its real state and allows accurate measurement.

Lots of people claim their batteries read 13 volts plus when charged up. This is just that 'surface' voltage and it does not reflect the battery's true state of charge.
This also perpetuates the myth that their batteries have fully charged after only a few minutes of engine running or solar use!!!

I thank you for your post sir, articulate, informative and understandable.

 

[Barclaybasher]

You're just trying to confuse us now Joy !................
















........................It was bad enough before

 

[movan]

I thank you for your post sir, articulate, informative and understandable.

creep ...

 

[dabhand]

creep ...

Now that's novel, don't think I've ever been accused of that before, you very intelligent lady you!

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[scotjimland]

Now that's novel, don't think I've ever been accused of that before, you very intelligent lady you!

it was meant as a joke.. you'll get used to it .. or grow thick skin

 

[jonandshell]

Oh, just to confuse you all more, the specific gravity readings of electrolyte are affected by temperature!

There are charts on the net to help you!!

 

[dabhand]

it was meant as a joke.. you'll get used to it .. or grow thick skin

If my skin was any thicker they'd call me croc, I forgot to add my smiley's
Just for the record been round the block and back,love the banter, don't get offended that easily, tend to offend others by sometimes not thinking things through and not adding smilies and using sarcasm as a form of wit, how low can you get, now sod off and leave me alone

 

[Mike B]

Great thread Jon and I have a little question......can you over charge a battery? Say you left it on charge for 3 days as opposed to 16hrs

The main problem of over charging is gassing which can be dangerous, but which also lowers the electrolyte level in the battery. This exposes the battery plates to the air and if left make this part of the plate unusable, hence reducing the battery capacity.

Oh, just to confuse you all more, the specific gravity readings of electrolyte are affected by temperature!

There are charts on the net to help you!!

or use

• Correction factor = (0.595 x Cell Temp ºC – 12.5) / 1000

 

[dabhand]

Hi there are two methods.

1. Use a battery hydrometer to !measure the specific gravity of the cell electrolyte. A reading of 1.265 to 1.275 is fully charged.

2. Measure the open circuit voltage of the batteries. With everything switched off, measure the battery voltage with a multimeter. 12.7 volts is fully charged.

It is important to note that after charging, a 'surface' voltage can be present giving a false high voltage reading. Switching on a light for a couple of minutes reduces the battery voltage to its real state and allows accurate measurement.

Lots of people claim their batteries read 13 volts plus when charged up. This is just that 'surface' voltage and it does not reflect the battery's true state of charge.
This also perpetuates the myth that their batteries have fully charged after only a few minutes of engine running or solar use!!!

Hi Jon and everyone who was kind enough to reply,
after your post re hydrometer etc thought I'd check my leisure batteries, put in a hydrometer.... no fluid, put a multi meter on them whilst on hook up, 13.8v, that's alright thought I, thinking I could top up the batteries, so after reading through the various threads etc disconnected EHU tested again, same voltage, was about to leave it be when I thought I know I will turn the isolator (van battery/hab battereies) switch to see what difference that makes as I never use it, guess what, 8.5v on the leisures, 12..5v on vehicle. It would appear that the van has been using the vehicle battery for it's 12v when not on EHU because I haven't been using the isolator, didn't notice till we were at Lincoln with no EHU, I guess solar panel couldn't put enough in.

It's probably been like this for a while but haven't noticed, cos we have been mainly on EHU this year. So have ordered three new 110ah leisure batteries which will hopefully come tomorrow so I can fit before Southport on Thursday. I was wondering what the safest way to change the batteries over is without blowing stuff up

If I turn the 12v switch off in the van, turn the isolator on to separate vehicle and leisure batteries and remove the EHU is this enough? I am unsure how to disconnect the solar panels, if i cover them up will this suffice?

Sorry to be a pain, I suppose after 14 years new batteries are due!

Cheers

Simon

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[jonandshell]

I can't advise on the solar connection without seeing the installation but generally, if you disconnect the solar regulator battery output leads first, followed by the battery negative connections, followed by the battery positives you should have a spark free experience!

There are some who say you can damage your solar system by erroneous disconnections so it might be worth checking the instructions with your solar system.

 

[vwalan]

if in doubt cover the panels so they arent giving any output.

 

[JockandRita]

if in doubt cover the panels so they arent giving any output.

Or pull the fuse between the panels and the regulator.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[vwalan]

some panels have diodes built into the little box on the back of them . i,m told you can overheat them if they have nowhere for the power to go.

 

[dabhand]

I can't advise on the solar connection without seeing the installation but generally, if you disconnect the solar regulator battery output leads first, followed by the battery negative connections, followed by the battery positives you should have a spark free experience!

There are some who say you can damage your solar system by erroneous disconnections so it might be worth checking the instructions with your solar system.

if in doubt cover the panels so they arent giving any output.

Or pull the fuse between the panels and the regulator.

Cheers,

Jock.

To complicate matters further I have bought these

Product Specification
Brand: Xplorer™

Voltage: 12V
Capacity (Ah): 110
Capacity (Ah): 110
Terminal Type: Standard Round (Type 1)
Terminal Layout: Positive on Left (Layout 1)
Height (mm): 230
Width (mm): 175
Length (mm): 345
Weight (kg): 23.0000
Construction: Lead Acid
Maintenance Free: Yes
Warranty (Years): 3
Calcium Technology: Yes
Deep Cycle: Yes
Sealed: No

To replace 3 x exide 7110M 110 ah batteries the spec of which I cannot find, all it says on the battery is exide porta power leisure battery, (D14z02, on a little label) speaking to a guy who sells Hymers says that if the existing batteries are original the van was normally fitted with gel batteries and I would have to flick a switch on the charging unit.

My predicament

Can't find a switch on the charging unit to change battery type
Don't know if old batteries are Gel or not

If it helps it's a 2001 Hymer S740 I've had it I've had it 10 years and it's not had new batteries during this time

Sorry to be a pain

Simon

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[jonandshell]

Mmmmmmm!

I reckon that might be question for a new thread aimed at fellow Hymer owners!!!
What I do know is German manufacturers do like their gel batteries, so it might be set to that.
The Gel charge cycle ain't good for open lead acid because the final charging voltage and float is higher.
It might be why your old batteries were bone dry!

 

[JockandRita]

clipped........speaking to a guy who sells Hymers says that if the existing batteries are original the van was normally fitted with gel batteries and I would have to flick a switch on the charging unit.

My predicament

Can't find a switch on the charging unit to change battery type
Don't know if old batteries are Gel or not

If it helps it's a 2001 Hymer S740 I've had it I've had it 10 years and it's not had new batteries during this time

Sorry to be a pain

Simon

Simon,

First of all, you are not a pain. You have a problem and you are looking for help. No sweats.

The guy selling Hymers is correct, ie, original batteries fitted at the factory are GEL, and the default setting on the Elektroblock (EBL) charging unit will be "GEL", however, without going outside to the MH, and crawling along the interior floor, then laying on my back to view the underside of the charging unit with a torch, I can't remember what the German wording is for the battery types, but the little black slide switch is on the base of the EBL unit. You'll need a biro nib or similar to alter the switch setting.
Hopefully JeanLuc will be along shortly to advise further on the translation for the charger settings.

I too suffered the consequences of batteries being charged on the wrong setting, but fortunately not batteries I had newly installed.

Good luck with the battery replacement, but if in any doubt at all about the installation, seek professional advice.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[funflair]

Lead acid will be Blei-Säure- Gel is quite possibly Gel.

 

[TheCaller]

On my Electrobloc EBL99G, the settings are:

Gel - Blei-Gel (lead gel)
Acid - Blei-Säure (lead acid)

 

[daveandsan]

Lead acid will be Blei-Säure- Gel is quite possibly Gel.

Correct, Gel is Gel.

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[jonandshell]

Ya Gel ist Gel, Blei ist Blei!!

Ich leibe mein batterien!

 

[vwalan]

pervy

 

[JeanLuc]

Simon - just noticed your questions and concerns. I suggest you start another thread about your issue. Can you read the front plate of the Electroblok and see which model you have? Like Jock, I have an EBL99G but yours may be a different model since it is in an S-Class.
I'm about to turn in but will have a look for your post in the morning. Put in it any queries you have and what you are aiming to resolve.

 

[dabhand]

Simon - just noticed your questions and concerns. I suggest you start another thread about your issue. Can you read the front plate of the Electroblok and see which model you have? Like Jock, I have an EBL99G but yours may be a different model since it is in an S-Class.
I'm about to turn in but will have a look for your post in the morning. Put in it any queries you have and what you are aiming to resolve.

Ok Jean Luc, John and Jock here goes.....

just had a crawl around with the torch. Left hand drive Hymer under the drivers seat is an EBL99 caught see a letter, there is a small removeable panel at the base of the drivers seat (as you look through the door) this is the "front" of the panel, it is very difficult to see any thing resembling a slide switch as there is a wiring loom in the way, if you look to the extreme right I can make out one word which is Saure, whatever is above this is obscured, if there is something here which needs changing I think its a seat out jobby!

To complicate matters even further, under the passenger seat there is what looks to be a smaller unit which I presume is a trickle charger?? on this unit it says :- Batterie Ladegerat, switchmode and is made by Schaudt.
This has three leds -

• Hauptladen
• Volladen
• Erhaltungsladen - this one showing green

At the side of the 3 leds there is a small oblong hole which I presume you have to shove something in to change settings as to the side of the hole the following is written:-
Blei Gel
Blei Saure

It also has 12v 16a written on it and a 20amp fuse. At the side of the 3 leds

Hope the above makes sense and helps you to help me. Supposed to be going to the Southport rally on Thursday! Can't see me getting the bloody seat out? I'll have another look tomorrow when it's light. Dentist 1st thing so can't do much till 11 ish.

Basically, I am assuming that the Hymer has gel batteries and these are being changed to lead acid, can't be sure as I can't determine what the Exides (see above post) are. How long would it take to fry the new batteries if the setting is wrong???? Or does it only make a difference on EHU. You wouldn't think batteries would cause so much pallaver would you!!!

Cheers guys, Simon

 

[dabhand]

PS. Does the "switch" have to be changed on both units and how is this achieved?

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[dabhand]

Just found some pictures of the electrobloc, If I can get to it I think I just flick it down?
And the smaller unit which I think is the LAS 1218 auxillary Charger, I think this is used for either type of battery so the switch isn't there it's just a whole, not entirely sure about this.so it seems to me that to change the batteries I should

1. Disconnect from mains
2. Cover solar panel (or remove +ive "+ solarzelle) lead from electrobloc?)
3. Turn Vehicle battery Isolator on (which is actually the off position!)
4. Disconnect negative then positive leads from leisure batteries
5. Remove batteries
6. Flick down switch on EBL to Blei Saure (if i can get to it, can't see it, is this easy?)
7. Possibly insert some thing into hole on the LAS1218? and change setting?????? (Not sure if this is possible)
8. Fit new batteries +ive first then -ive
9. Uncover solar panel
10. Plug mains back in

It's late, let me know if this sounds about right or if I've missed something, or should do something else!

Cheers Simon

 

[dabhand]

Bit of a bump here!

 

[funflair]

Hi Simon

Looks OK to me, but worth waiting for a second opinion, does the solar panel go into the EBL as this output needs to be Blei Saure as well.

Martin

 

[JeanLuc]

First, let's confirm wht your system comprises. As I understand it, you have the following Schaudt installation:
EBL99 (main charger and control unit)
LAS1216 (additional charger) You may have a LAS1218 which is the current model, but since you have said that it has 16 amps written on it, I assume it's an earlier model with slightly lower output.
Also, a solar regulator which may be a Schaudt - probably a LRS1216, or the current LRS1218 (16 and 18 amps max respectively).

The LAS1216 is not a trickle charger, it is an additional main charging unit that should be connected to block 7 on the EBL. This is shown in the diagram below and confusingly, is numbered 8 in the notes. In fact, the EBL99 contains one LAS1218 module. The second external module is added to cope with the large battery bank fitted to the S740 as the standard EBL99 alone should not be used on a bank of more than around 200 Ah. The switch you have noted next to the LEDs is a battery type selector - it can be moved with a small screwdriver blade or similar.
The EBL99 also has a battery type selector and it is moved in the same way as above. It is located at the extreme right of the EBL99 face plate - see diagram, number 10 in the notes.
If your solar regulator is an LRS1218 (or 1216) it should be connected to block 6 on the EBL99 - see diagram also numbered 7 in the notes.

When changing batteries, you need to disconnect the +tve feed INTO the LRS1216/18, NOT the feed from the LRS1216/18 into the EBL99. The damage is caused if the solar panel(s) can still feed the regulator (LRS1216/18) without a battery attached to the other end. This connector is a push-fit and is shown in the diagram below marked "Solar Module Plus'. A suitable alternative is to cover the solar panel(s) with a dark cloth to stop the output.

Before doing ANY adjustments, you must switch off the EBL99 at the main switch on the front panel. To be certain, you might want to pull the plugs too. Then disconnect the existing batteries - negative first. NOTE - Hymer normally use the cabling colour convention of BLACK (or Blue) for Positive and BROWN for Negative - make sure you check this BEFORE disconnecting the batteries.
Then change the selector switches on both EBL99 and LAS1218 from Blei-Gel (Gel) to Blei-Säure (Lead-acid) - assuming you are fitting the batteries you have described above and the current setting is gel.
Then fit the new batteries, linking them in parallel and connecting the principle negative lead last.
Switch on the EBL and uncover solar panel / reconnect the LRS1216/18 as appropriate.

A thought - are you sure the batteries you have described will fit? many Hymer installations require a low height battery - max 190mm. I know I cannot fit taller batteries in mine, but the location is in a twin battery tray sunk into the floor beneath the settee; yours may be different. Also, your description of the batteries says they are not sealed. Does this mean they have caps that can be opened? If so, I would not have thought them suitable for internal use. Although the charger will not cause gassing, if a cell fails, the battery can gas. At end of life, one of my original Exide gels failed and the van was full of hydrogen sulphide. I now have Lead-acid seadel batteries, but they are vented through the floor with small tubes as a safety measure.

You asked if an incorrect battery type setting on the EBL/LAS can cause damage. YES!

 

[JeanLuc]

Minor correction to the above - I have referred to the solar regulator as LRS1218 (or 1216). It should just be LR1218 - apologies for any confusion.

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