Charging Fogstar 460 for the first time

[Gromett]

Just a quick explanation of what balancing is and how it works for those who don't know/understand.
Lets say the peak charge voltage for a 12V battery is 14.4V. There are 4 cells in a LiFePO4 12v battery so each cell has a peak charge voltage of 14.4V ÷ 4 cells = 3.6V

The charger applies the 14.4V across all the cells in series. But it has no way of forcing individual cells to charge at the same rate.
So one cell may reach 3.6V whilst the one next to it is only at 3.55V. The BMS will switch off the charging as soon as this happens as if you continue to charge the higher cell may go to 3.61V which is too high.

(simplified explanation to keep it easy to understand)
This is when balancing kicks in. With the charging process stopped. the BMS will attach a resistor to the cell that is highest between positive and negative terminal so that it very slowly discharges. Once it reaches 3.59V the charger will be switched back on.
This continues until all the cells reach 3.6V at the same time. It is called top balancing.

 

[Pausim]

My battery finishes charge as in the following photo
Opinions please....

View attachment 801472

They don’t look like well matched and well balanced cells to me.

 

[Gromett]

My battery finishes charge as in the following photo
Opinions please....

View attachment 801472

I suspect you need to leave it on charge so that the balancing process can be completed. Those look well out of balance and with cell 1 so low potentially damaged?

 

[olley]

My two 460's for comparison

 

[Ditcha]

My battery finishes charge as in the following photo
Opinions please....

View attachment 801472

Cells 1 and 4 or way out to 2 and 3 why is there no temp reading on cell 4?
This battery has never been topped balanced from the start not knowing when balancing starts and finishes and high and low voltage cutoff is set at it could take a good while to balance itself if at all it does.

RedFrame , Red did you solve your issue with one cell being 0.75v below the rest was you battery a fogstar?

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[jezport]

Cells 1 and 4 or way out to 2 and 3 why is there no temp reading on cell 4?
This battery has never been topped balanced from the start not knowing when balancing starts and finishes and high and low voltage cutoff is set at it could take a good while to balance itself if at all it does.

RedFrame , Red did you solve your issue with one cell being 0.75v below the rest was you battery a fogstar?

Apparently the temperature displays are not as you would expect according to Fogstar.
They say 1, is the BMS 2, is the first 2 cells and 3 is the other 2 cells.

 

[jezport]

I suspect you need to leave it on charge so that the balancing process can be completed. Those look well out of balance and with cell 1 so low potentially damaged?

They only shoot out of balance near the end of the charge and drop back when sitting off charge.

 

[Ditcha]

I suspect you need to leave it on charge so that the balancing process can be completed. Those look well out of balance and with cell 1 so low potentially damaged?

How do you know when balancing has started or stopped there is nothing to indicate it.

 

[jezport]

Should I leave it on charge where it will cut in when the cell voltage drops then cut out at COV level? and for how many cycles?

 

[Ditcha]

Should I leave it on charge where it will cut in when the cell voltage drops then cut out at COV level? and for how many cycles?

Don't think you will ever get rid of that if it's only happening at the very end of the charge cycle then when charging stops the cells then fall in line due to balancing my cells get a bit out of line towards the end of the charge cycle.
If your not using the van let the battery run down then allow solar to charge and cycle it like this and see if it gets any better is it a problem probably not I charge mine to 14v but have all charger profiles set to 14.05v

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[RedFrame]

RedFrame , Red did you solve your issue with one cell being 0.75v below the rest was you battery a fogstar?

Long story, but I'm currently running through and documenting an exhaustive "proof of f**ked" process.

I've managed to replicate the issue, but am currently waiting for this weekend when the battery is going to get some 14+ hrs on the B2B during the drive down to Spain, which I hope, but don't believe, will give the BMS time to sort it out.

During this process I've been fully charging then hammering the batteries down to 20 or 30% (because that's where I see the issue) , but you can imagine, with 600Ah this takes a week for each cycle ..! (I'm still only on cycle 5 for one of the batteries)

I'm not prepared to name the Battery Manufacturer (importer) yet as I've only dealt with the supplier to date, and I have had a great experience of dealing with the Manufacturer in the past, suffice to say it's not Fogstar...

Happy to report back on anything I find out during the process here, if it seems relevant

Raul I've not contacted you yet mate as the supplier indicated that they want the battery in and out of the van like a Jack Rabbit, which won't work, so I'm collecting data

Cheers
Red.

 

[Ditcha]

My battery finishes charge as in the following photo
Opinions please....

View attachment 801472

Reading the specs for your battery if you haven't bought the extra plug in active balancer the built in balancer only adds 150ma of balancing so you could be waiting a long time for the cells to balance they also state they are matched grade A cells that don't need it but not in your case.

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[jezport]

Reading the specs for your battery if you haven't bought the extra plug in active balancer the built in balancer only adds 150ma of balancing so you could be waiting a long time for the cells to balance they also state they are matched grade A cells that don't need it but not in your case.

SEAT BASE 12v 230Ah Lithium Leisure Battery

Our Drift 12v 230Ah SEAT BASE Lithium Leisure battery is 275 x 315 x 187.5, making it one of the most compact on the UK market. Priced at just £799.99 (include free shipping).

www.fogstar-drift.co.uk

I have the active balancer.
Fogstar offered to balance the cells, but I asked for a replacement so they have agreed to send one. Although they say it could be that cell 1 has more capacity and that's why it's not reaching full charge.

 

[Raul]

My two 460's for comparison
View attachment 801493View attachment 801550

I would not be happy with that, 76mv it’s allot, one cell near saturated and one just arrived at 3.45v.
One of my 16s 280ah builds, was about 80mv out on first charge. After 3days with 2a active balancer, it brought it down to 3mv, and 3kwh energy went in. Now if I divide that by 4 for a 4s 280ah, it’s about 750wh for a 80mv imbalance. The greater the imbalance, the less capacity you got to work with.

 

[Ditcha]

I have the active balancer.
Fogstar offered to balance the cells, but I asked for a replacement so they have agreed to send one. Although they say it could be that cell 1 has more capacity and that's why it's not reaching full charge.

It shouldn't have been delivered really like that but they must be under the kosh a little with the amount they are selling but good customer service result

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[Raul]

I have the active balancer.
Fogstar offered to balance the cells, but I asked for a replacement so they have agreed to send one. Although they say it could be that cell 1 has more capacity and that's why it's not reaching full charge.

Go for replacement, that’s a big imbalance, it needs balancing with a active balancer, then put in to service.

 

[Raul]

It shouldn't have been delivered really like that but they must be under the kosh a little with the amount they are selling but good customer service result

Agree, on the other hand, the cells I got from them was, Pretty close match. Last batch of eight I put them into a 24v bank. At first charge I got 30 ish mv deviation. Very good, within 4hrs the jk bms with 2a active balancer brought them within 2mv.
It’s worth having a active balancer for the initial pack formation.

 

[Ditcha]

Agree, on the other hand, the cells I got from them was, Pretty close match. Last batch of eight I put them into a 24v bank. At first charge I got 30 ish mv deviation. Very good, within 4hrs the jk bms with 2a active balancer brought them within 2mv.
It’s worth having a active balancer for the initial pack formation.

The JBD BMS,s they are using have pants balancing amps and don't state wether or not it's passive or active unless they add a active balancer as standard but it doesn't state what or how many amps, thought they were using JK like yours.

 

[jezport]

The JBD BMS,s they are using have pants balancing amps and don't state wether or not it's passive or active unless they add a active balancer as standard but it doesn't state what or how many amps, thought they were using JK like yours.

The add on one is 2a active

 

[Ditcha]

The add on one is 2a active

Can you use the add on one on all there drift range ?

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[olley]

I would not be happy with that, 76mv it’s allot, one cell near saturated and one just arrived at 3.45v.
One of my 16s 280ah builds, was about 80mv out on first charge. After 3days with 2a active balancer, it brought it down to 3mv, and 3kwh energy went in. Now if I divide that by 4 for a 4s 280ah, it’s about 750wh for a 80mv imbalance. The greater the imbalance, the less capacity you got to work with.

That's the first charge Raul, only got them last week, they are sitting in my workshop waiting to be fitted.

 

[jezport]

Can you use the add on one on all there drift range ?

It has a plug to connect, do only batteries with the socket

 

[Raul]

I think on the new packs they use the new Jbd smart with a active balance port. So you add a balancer that’s controlled by that port. Anything before that it’s a simple jbd passive resistors type.
Saying that, you are still locked out of the settings, and you don’t know at what voltage and what deviation the port kicks in.
If I buy a battery with locked out access, I expect that battery to be top notch. Any less it’s going back.

 

[PaulandChrissy]

the app is not the best, it keeps pinging me to connect or view each time i pass my van. furthermore when i do open the app it picks up any thing with BT in range the you have to pick the battery each time. pity the battery is great.

If you open the app and tap the blue tooth symbol top right. to show your battery. Slide the battery tab to the left, you can turn off auto connection. This will stop it pestering you every time you pass your van.

PaulandChrissy

 

[jezport]

The app has just been updated, now shows fully charged next to main clock instead of COV

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[GMLS]

When my FogStar first arrived, the charge level in the app was not correct. Only when I fully charged it using a Victron IP22 on the lithium profile did the FogStar app correctly set itself.

Just got my Fogstar.Did you use the standard lithium setting on the Ip22 or set up a user defined profile? I see there is a slight difference but not sure how critical

 

[jezport]

My two 460's for comparison
View attachment 801493View attachment 801550

Are these readings immediately when charging ends? Or slightly afterwards as my DIF drops fast after charge ends.

 

[Guigsy]

Just got my Fogstar.Did you use the standard lithium setting on the Ip22 or set up a user defined profile? I see there is a slight difference but not sure how critical

I've set up my own profile. It's a copy of the Victron settings, except there's no low temperature cutoff because of the FogStar's heating mats. I think FogStar recommend slightly higher charging voltages than the Victron profile, but I've left it alone to give my battery an easy life. I've got masses more capacity than I need, so not reaching full charge isn't an issue.

 

[olley]

I got them last week and put them in the workshop, I then started charging one, the next day I wired the other up and charged them both over about 2 days with a 3 outlet 30amp Blue Smart charger. Left the charger on for a couple of days after that but it wasn't charging so turned it off.
One thing I did notice was the charge rate was different once both were connected, the one that had the extra days charging got less amps (10-12) while the other got the 18-20 amps so they both finished fully charged at similar times.

 

[PaulandChrissy]

I got them last week and put them in the workshop, I then started charging one, the next day I wired the other up and charged them both over about 2 days with a 3 outlet 30amp Blue Smart charger. Left the charger on for a couple of days after that but it wasn't charging so turned it off.
One thing I did notice was the charge rate was different once both were connected, the one that had the extra days charging got less amps (10-12) while the other got the 18-20 amps so they both finished fully charged at similar times.

The difference in charging rates is normal. Once they balance out after being connected together in parallel for a few days, the charging rates will be equal.

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