Carthago hab panel displays low battery 10v but shunt reading over 13v. Solar readings similar. Where to check next ?

[AdrianChen]

The Out terminal is connected to the main voltage point that distributes power from the leisure battery (B2) to all the habitation fuses. On the charging side, the split charge relay output connects to that voltage point directly. The Out terminal could be used for solar or B2B input too, or any extra outputs from the leisure battery.

The main voltage point (and the Out terminal) is separated from the B2 (leisure battery) terminal by a shunt resistor with a very low resistance. The voltages on the B2 and Out terminals should be equal. There will be a few millivolts dropped across the shunt resistor, but probably almost undetectable by a multimeter. If the voltages are different then maybe the shunt resistor has failed.

Thats worth a checking I guess - but given Mark has replaced the batteries, Solar, EHU charger, and added a B2B, all as I understand it connected to busbars, I am intrigued as to what those two cables in his photo are now connected to at their other ends, and if they are carrying any current in or out!

I think (from my dodgy memory) originally my CBE charger and solar outputs were connected to OUT, I suppose they would then share the charge to B1 (up to 6 amps was the spec), this still happens when the voltage on the Habs is over 13.5v and the panel is switched on but not when the panel is off. So I have an Ablemail.

 

[AdrianChen]

No trickle charger attached. No charger active either as i have victron inverter/charger turned off.
Regardless of a meter or panel, because the panel determines the voltage to the ALDE then i get no heating. Even if i put it on EHU the ALDE still needs 12v to fire up. So at present waste on time and money installing lithium and inverter if i can only use EHU.

Mark - I wonder if someone has been playing with your panel - or if in the past it has been replaced, but not calibrated.

It might be worth checking in the panels menu system to see if it is set so you get the same voltage as your meter reads on B2 - Not sure it's relevant to the main issue though, but I think you can go +/- 0.5v.....

 

[MarkHoughton]

Hi Adrian,
The dealer said that the “CBE” had been replaced by the previous owner, I did not have the paperwork for that though, so not aware if he meant the distribution board or the contol panel.

Anyway, as I had not snipped any R28 or R37 connections, I decided to unbolt the B2B connections from the busbars…guess what Full volts reading on HAB panel and ALDE heating up nicely this past 10 minutes !?!

So I appreciate that the B2B could create a loop “without the zero ohm snipping” but why if the engine is off ?

Though in addition prior to the disconnection just now I noticed the HAB panel was showing a steady +0.8 even though solar has been disabled all morning and ehu not been plugged in since yesterday afternoon.

I am nervous just now to snip and connect as everything appears to be working, the inverter is boiling the kettle, ALDE is heating water and bedroom.
Thoughts on next stage for the B2B ? Just realised that I had also fitted a VanBitz battery master to the B2B ( followed guidance from Offgrid Solutions ) so could this be the source of the +0.8v on the panel and trying to back feed the engine battery ?

I guess I now need to fit a relay ala Roger Ivy …

Installing a Relay alongside a DC-DC Charger — Offgrid Power Solutions

If you’re installing a DC to DC charger into a motorhome, you should consider installing a relay to bipass the existing electrical system. This article is a must-read as it explains how to install a bypass (change-over) relay alongside your DC-DC charger. It also includes a comprehensive list of com

offgridpower.solutions

 

[autorouter]

So I appreciate that the B2B could create a loop “without the zero ohm snipping” but why if the engine is off ?

A quick test to see if the split charge relay has stuck closed is to measure the voltages on the B1 and B2 terminals. If they are always the same, something is connecting them, possibly the relay stuck closed. If they are different, the relay is not stuck closed.

 

[AdrianChen]

Hi Adrian,
The dealer said that the “CBE” had been replaced by the previous owner, I did not have the paperwork for that though, so not aware if he meant the distribution board or the contol panel.

Anyway, as I had not snipped any R28 or R37 connections, I decided to unbolt the B2B connections from the busbars…guess what Full volts reading on HAB panel and ALDE heating up nicely this past 10 minutes !?!

So I appreciate that the B2B could create a loop “without the zero ohm snipping” but why if the engine is off ?

Though in addition prior to the disconnection just now I noticed the HAB panel was showing a steady +0.8 even though solar has been disabled all morning and ehu not been plugged in since yesterday afternoon.

I am nervous just now to snip and connect as everything appears to be working, the inverter is boiling the kettle, ALDE is heating water and bedroom.
Thoughts on next stage for the B2B ?

I guess it is to fit a relay ala Roger Ivy …

Installing a Relay alongside a DC-DC Charger — Offgrid Power Solutions

If you’re installing a DC to DC charger into a motorhome, you should consider installing a relay to bipass the existing electrical system. This article is a must-read as it explains how to install a bypass (change-over) relay alongside your DC-DC charger. It also includes a comprehensive list of com

offgridpower.solutions

Hi Mark - That is really odd! I wonder if the panel/DS were ever calibrated, the Amp display maybe wrong as well, although you cant alter it by much.

I agree, work out what's wrong before snipping the resistor

How did you have the B2B triggered - by D+ or voltage engine start detection? Either way it should have been off! It should not be the cause of a low hab battery voltage, because it should not pass a current the wrong way (from Hab to Cab), even if on.

What happens with the B2B connected but without the Battery Master?

I suppose it is possible that the Relay in the DS box is faulty and constantly paralleling the b1/b2 terminals - easy way for you to check is replace the b2b, but disconnect B1, the cab battery wont show on the panel, which will give an alarm/red main switch, but no current will be able to flow, your B2B should work because you have the new 25mm cable in place, as should the Battery Master.

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[AdrianChen]

Hi Mark - That is really odd! I wonder if the panel/DS were ever calibrated, the Amp display maybe wrong as well, although you cant alter it by much.

I agree, work out what's wrong before snipping the resistor

How did you have the B2B triggered - by D+ or voltage engine start detection? Either way it should have been off! It should not be the cause of a low hab battery voltage, because it should not pass a current the wrong way (from Hab to Cab), even if on.

What happens with the B2B connected but without the Battery Master?

I suppose it is possible that the Relay in the DS box is faulty and constantly paralleling the b1/b2 terminals - easy way for you to check is replace the b2b, but disconnect B1, the cab battery wont show on the panel, which will give an alarm/red main switch, but no current will be able to flow, your B2B should work because you have the new 25mm cable in place, as should the Battery Master.

Years ago on a boat an owner had turned the engine off, but left the engine control panel on, this left the battery linked to the alternator, which busied itself by warming itself up and draining the battery - I wonder if you have a similar issue, either with the main 70amp cab to hab relay, or the hab to cab link Autorouter described earlier.

Worth doing a few test, easy if you have a DC clamp meter, or a warm alternator!

 

[MarkHoughton]

Years ago on a boat an owner had turned the engine off, but left the engine control panel on, this left the battery linked to the alternator, which busied itself by warming itself up and draining the battery - I wonder if you have a similar issue, either with the main 70amp cab to hab relay, or the hab to cab link Autorouter described earlier.

Worth doing a few test, easy if you have a DC clamp meter, or a warm alternator!

No clamp meter and no warm alternator either as indoors now as the rain has arrived. Having read the instructions from Roger Ivy's webpage above I ordered the relay he suggests, so Amazon will deliver that tomorrow. I did not want to dis-assemble the cables from the B2B/Battery Master as it was a fiddly job to get them in whilst on the "mounting board" on the kitchen worktop. Would involve removing all of that to access again, so parking that suggestion for now.

B2B is to be activated by engine start voltage as I have not determined where the D+ is, so will visit that along with the Amazon relay.
For now I am happy at least that I have a functional habitation area. Had planned to get away to Northumberland this coming weekend, so will hopefully get it resolved by then.

 

[AdrianChen]

I think your D+ is the grey cable coming out of the 4 way connecot near the middle of the board. if 0v when engine of and 12v+ when running its that one. Miine was not connected to anything, and so I used that cable!

 

[MarkHoughton]

Well back to square one this morning. Woke early so checked the panel and battery situation. Fogstar showing full and a 13.3v meter but Hab panel back down to 11.2v
.
Now I noticed given it was dark that the blue "truck" light was on for the VB air remote, do you think this may be one of the "OUT" cables perhaps ?
Don't recall it always being on before.

 

[AdrianChen]

Well back to square one this morning. Woke early so checked the panel and battery situation. Fogstar showing full and a 13.3v meter but Hab panel back down to 11.2v
.
Now I noticed given it was dark that the blue "truck" light was on for the VB air remote, do you think this may be one of the "OUT" cables perhaps ?
Don't recall it always being on before.

Its possible I guess. Was the shunt also reporting 13.3v so at least they all agree the battery voltage.

This is the picture of your DS470 from the other "R37" post.

Looking at this for your setup I don't understand what the two red cables are connected to, might be the VB I suppose - mine (Leveling and Air Suspension) are connected to the Cab battery.

It would also be good to know what the Yellow cable is next to the Grey D+(?) Pretty sure that I dont have that, and it looks DIY, might also be a D+ but what is it connected to, If that is a d+ spade connector on the board it shouldn't really be used to power a device directly.

Also there is a brown green yellow connection to the GND stud, which is different from mine and perhaps non standard, so that also might be having some effect, so would be good to trace it back.

I would want to know what each of those was connected to in case they are part of the problem.

Given there is a possibility the "CBE" was changed, does the white sticker by the out connection identify this is a Carthago version of the DS? It should say something like DS470CA - The CA is for Carthago. Bit of a long shot but worth checking.

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[MarkHoughton]

Its possible I guess. Was the shunt also reporting 13.3v so at least they all agree the battery voltage.

This is the picture of your DS470 from the other "R37" post.

View attachment 961600

Looking at this for your setup I don't understand what the two red cables are connected to, might be the VB I suppose - mine (Leveling and Air Suspension) are connected to the Cab battery.

It would also be good to know what the Yellow cable is next to the Grey D+(?) Pretty sure that I dont have that, and it looks DIY, might also be a D+ but what is it connected to, If that is a d+ spade connector on the board it shouldn't really be used to power a device directly.

Also there is a brown green yellow connection to the GND stud, which is different from mine and perhaps non standard, so that also might be having some effect, so would be good to trace it back.

I would want to know what each of those was connected to in case they are part of the problem.

Given there is a possibility the "CBE" was changed, does the white sticker by the out connection identify this is a Carthago version of the DS? It should say something like DS470CA - The CA is for Carthago. Bit of a long shot but worth checking.

Morning ! Yes, just checked and it is a CA board.
Meter on Fogstar shows 12.88 and shunt 12.9 the B2 to GND on meter shows 12.5 and finally B1 to GND shows 12.6 which is what the HAB panel shows B1 as.

On a side note, cross reading other posts earlier on the SOS fuse and its impact on the panel, my SOS slot is empty, what size fuse to put there ?

 

[Pausim]

On my Carthago the B1 (red) and B2 (blue) wires were different colours. However there wasn’t an OUT terminal on my DS so there would be differences but it does surprise me that Carthago would change their wiring convention.

 

[AdrianChen]

Morning ! Yes, just checked and it is a CA board.
Meter on Fogstar shows 12.88 and shunt 12.9 the B2 to GND on meter shows 12.5

On a side note, cross reading other posts earlier on the SOS fuse and its impact on the panel, my SOS slot is empty, what size fuse to put there ? View attachment 961607

Shouldnt need a fuse in there unless the board breaks and you have no power in the van, then you put a fuse in there and you get some power back for the essentials - I could never find a definitive answer to what fuse size to use, but I would go for 15 as a pure guess given what it will power up.

 

[AdrianChen]

On my Carthago the B1 (red) and B2 (blue) wires were different colours. However there wasn’t an OUT terminal on my DS so there would be differences but it does surprise me that they would change their wiring convention.

On our DS470 both B1 and B2 were blue. "Out" had solar and charger connected if I remember correctly.......

 

[Lenny HB]

With the starter battery receving a charge you have 3 ways of charging it.
All the time the Multiplus has a 12v connection it will charge the starter battey, the DS will charge the starter battery all the time the leisure battery is above 13.5v & you have a batterymaster that will charge it all the time there is a 0.75v difference.

Going back to your eairler post you mention several connections to chassis, there shouldn't be any connection to chassis on the leisure side. All negative connections should go to the shunt, I still think this could be the route of some of your extraneous voltage readings.

If you haven't snipped R37 you will have effectively shorted out the B2B and it can cause other problems.

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[G1969]

Its possible I guess. Was the shunt also reporting 13.3v so at least they all agree the battery voltage.

This is the picture of your DS470 from the other "R37" post.

View attachment 961600

Looking at this for your setup I don't understand what the two red cables are connected to, might be the VB I suppose - mine (Leveling and Air Suspension) are connected to the Cab battery.

It would also be good to know what the Yellow cable is next to the Grey D+(?) Pretty sure that I dont have that, and it looks DIY, might also be a D+ but what is it connected to, If that is a d+ spade connector on the board it shouldn't really be used to power a device directly.

Also there is a brown green yellow connection to the GND stud, which is different from mine and perhaps non standard, so that also might be having some effect, so would be good to trace it back.

I would want to know what each of those was connected to in case they are part of the problem.

Given there is a possibility the "CBE" was changed, does the white sticker by the out connection identify this is a Carthago version of the DS? It should say something like DS470CA - The CA is for Carthago. Bit of a long shot but worth checking.

For what it’s worth, here is a picture of mine.

Its possible I guess. Was the shunt also reporting 13.3v so at least they all agree the battery voltage.

This is the picture of your DS470 from the other "R37" post.

View attachment 961600

Looking at this for your setup I don't understand what the two red cables are connected to, might be the VB I suppose - mine (Leveling and Air Suspension) are connected to the Cab battery.

It would also be good to know what the Yellow cable is next to the Grey D+(?) Pretty sure that I dont have that, and it looks DIY, might also be a D+ but what is it connected to, If that is a d+ spade connector on the board it shouldn't really be used to power a device directly.

Also there is a brown green yellow connection to the GND stud, which is different from mine and perhaps non standard, so that also might be having some effect, so would be good to trace it back.

I would want to know what each of those was connected to in case they are part of the problem.

Given there is a possibility the "CBE" was changed, does the white sticker by the out connection identify this is a Carthago version of the DS? It should say something like DS470CA - The CA is for Carthago. Bit of a long shot but worth checking.

for what it’s worth, and if any help here is mine. Having said that it is in for repair having the awning light on/ off issue hopefully finally fixed, where I understand require a replacement wiring loom.

 

[Winchester123]

Can you check the voltage at the back of the hab panel - this should tell you if the panel is reading correctly. I suspect that the supply to the hab panel is compromised. I recently had a problem with a usb on my Carthago which had ok voltage on no load but lost voltage with load. Checked the 12v supply - 10.5 v despite battery at 12.8v. Voltage dropped to 6v with any load. Turned out to be due to blown fuse to usb but was still getting a low voltage supply presumably a back flow from some other device. Worked fine once I found the fuse and replaced. Point is that it got a sopply at 10.5v despite blown fuse and I suspect this is what is happening to your hab panel.

 

[MarkHoughton]

With the starter battery receving a charge you have 3 ways of charging it.
All the time the Multiplus has a 12v connection it will charge the starter battey, the DS will charge the starter battery all the time the leisure battery is above 13.5v & you have a batterymaster that will charge it all the time there is a 0.75v difference.

Going back to your eairler post you mention several connections to chassis, there shouldn't be any connection to chassis on the leisure side. All negative connections should go to the shunt, I still think this could be the route of some of your extraneous voltage readings.

If you haven't snipped R37 you will have effectively shorted out the B2B and it can cause other problems.

I have disconnected the B2B, there are 2 original earth points from the distribution board wiring ( somewhere ? ) and then I have a new 50mm earth from the busbar and a 25mm earth from the inverter/charger's earth point.
As the B2B is totally disconnected, then I thought that they system would revert to the previous state and show a correct reading on B2.

 

[MarkHoughton]

Can you check the voltage at the back of the hab panel - this should tell you if the panel is reading correctly. I suspect that the supply to the hab panel is compromised. I recently had a problem with a usb on my Carthago which had ok voltage on no load but lost voltage with load. Checked the 12v supply - 10.5 v despite battery at 12.8v. Voltage dropped to 6v with any load. Turned out to be due to blown fuse to usb but was still getting a low voltage supply presumably a back flow from some other device. Worked fine once I found the fuse and replaced. Point is that it got a sopply at 10.5v despite blown fuse and I suspect this is what is happening to your hab pa

Can you check the voltage at the back of the hab panel - this should tell you if the panel is reading correctly. I suspect that the supply to the hab panel is compromised. I recently had a problem with a usb on my Carthago which had ok voltage on no load but lost voltage with load. Checked the 12v supply - 10.5 v despite battery at 12.8v. Voltage dropped to 6v with any load. Turned out to be due to blown fuse to usb but was still getting a low voltage supply presumably a back flow from some other device. Worked fine once I found the fuse and replaced. Point is that it got a sopply at 10.5v despite blown fuse and I suspect this is what is happening to your hab panel.

Can you give me some clues as to where to check at the back of the panel ? I have removed the panel but there are only 2 small electrical connector blocks but no exposed wire as such labelled EXT and INT ( see here from a stock photo not my unit )... so am unsure where I put my multimeter. Cheers

 

[AdrianChen]

I have disconnected the B2B, there are 2 original earth points from the distribution board wiring ( somewhere ? ) and then I have a new 50mm earth from the busbar and a 25mm earth from the inverter/charger's earth point.
As the B2B is totally disconnected, then I thought that they system would revert to the previous state and show a correct reading on B2.

Mine had a Carthago installed earth from the battery/gnd cable to chassis as standard, that got beefed up to 25mm as the cable had to be changed (clumsiness) so now runs from the Neg busbar we have a couple of small gauge device/case earth cables that go to chassis If I remember.

But the point for me is that you are not working from a known factory standard as if the van was new - I think someone has added stuff (possibly the VB kit but I don't know what else), directly to the DS box, and either the DS or the panel have been changed as well. Since the 12v system has been doing some strange things since you got the van, I think the problem pre-dates any work that you have done recently, so I guess you have to find that original fault, and personally I would start with the bits that are non standard Carthago ie the "extra" cables on the DS, and busbars that you haven't changed or added. Once you understand what they are doing or (even just disconnecting them all to get back to a "standard" starting point), and you are happy with the cabling you have done since it may be time to get the DS box checked.

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[Lenny HB]

I agree with Adrian you need to get back to basics and work your way through everything slowly.

Carthago & CBE electrics are an absolute nightmare at the best of times.
I have a new Compact Line it has a much simpler DS unit & control panel and it's has driven me nuts doing mods to the system. 3 months on I've still not got my head fully round it, makes Hymer electrics look so simple.

 

[AdrianChen]

Can you give me some clues as to where to check at the back of the panel ? I have removed the panel but there are only 2 small electrical connector blocks but no exposed wire as such labelled EXT and INT ( see here from a stock photo not my unit )... so am unsure where I put my multimeter. CheersView attachment 961633

The panel gets its power and signal from the 6 pin connector block that runs from the DS (Top of the picture White at the top pin, pink at the bottom) - Might be worth checking that these are clean and seated properly. But I would power down the whole 12v system (inc Solar) and leave it for a few mins for the capacitors etc to discharge before unplugging the panel. They seem to be sensitive and a few folk have had them refuse to reboot - no one can ascertain why!

 

[Lenny HB]

They seem to be sensitive and a few folk have had them refuse to reboot - no one can ascertain why!

And then it's needs a new panel at £300 but Steve and Denise has found someone who can repair them.

 

[AdrianChen]

I agree with Adrian you need to get back to basics and work your way through everything slowly.

Carthago & CBE electrics are an absolute nightmare at the best of times.
I have a new Compact Line it has a much simpler DS unit & control panel and it's has driven me nuts doing mods to the system. 3 months on I've still not got my head fully round it, makes Hymer electrics look so simple.

Yes shame I am in Chichester or I would help, curiosity is killing me and I can't wait for you to find the "Eureka" issue - bet its a weak fuse or something really stupid!

 

[AdrianChen]

And then it's needs a new panel at £300 but Steve and Denise has found someone who can repair them.

TV guy in Lincoln?

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[Lenny HB]

TV guy in Lincoln?

Somewhere up there Steve will confirm, I know Applujack won't touch them due to Carthago specific firmware they don't have access to.

 

[Steve and Denise]

And then it's needs a new panel at £300 but Steve and Denise has found someone who can repair them.

Yes Lenny we have always carried a spare one because they all fail at some point leaving you pretty stuck, I have just given them my van one plus my new spare one (both working) for them to upgrade one week done and returned less than £100.
Don’t waste time with the likes of Apuljack they will charge this for looking at it then telling you it can’t be repaired, as a few will know on here.
It’s in Resources

 

[Lenny HB]

Yes shame I am in Chichester or I would help, curiosity is killing me and I can't wait for you to find the "Eureka" issue - bet its a weak fuse or something really stupid!

Didn't realise you were just along the road from me.

 

[Lenny HB]

Yes Lenny we have always carried a spare one because they all fail at some point leaving you pretty stuck, I have just given them my van one plus my new spare one (both working) for them to upgrade one week done and returned less than £100.
Don’t waste time with the likes of Apuljack they will charge this for looking at it then telling you it can’t be repaired, as a few will know on here.
It’s in Resources

Pleased my little van has a nice simple version that doesn't appear to suffer these thoughts.

Gone & done it now that's put the mockers on it.

CBE electrics really aren't fit for purpose, Electroblock systems may have their faults but a least they work most of the time.

 

[MarkHoughton]

Ok, so have just had over half an hour on the phone with Roger Ivy. He has talked me through various checks. We have established that we have 12.83v at each point from battery thru my new victron isolator and at the existing carthago isolator, but WHEN the CBE is turned on ( regardless of any load ) the B2 to GND show 10.4v. So the issue is from the Carthago isolator to the distribution board... all original, nothing i have touched on that as yet other than remove the CBE522 charger.
So thoughts on how to attack the wiring ? These "out" cables seem to be on everyone's agenda, but what next to test to find where the voltage drop is ?
As said, if the CBE panel is OFF then the B2 to GND shows 12.83 but when I turn it on it drops to 10.4v ( or thereabouts ).
Ideas ?

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