Carthago hab panel displays low battery 10v but shunt reading over 13v. Solar readings similar. Where to check next ?

[MarkHoughton]

AdrianChen Lenny HB autorouter
I have been in a finance meeting this past hour and so only just come back out to carry on the checks.
Am rather confused because the panel is now reading 13v ?!?
The “out” are still disconnected but i have reconnected the engine battery.
Could that have reset everything perhaps ?
Solar and EHU have been disabled all day.

Just firing up the ALDE and will then monitor for the rest of the afternoon and report later.
Putting the TV and all the lights has dragged it down a touch.

4.15pm and ALDE still working and lights on.
Separate query…why am I not able to turn off the “charging” on the Fogstar app ? It was not on before. The victron charger is not on, so it cannot be charging the Fogstar ?

 

[AdrianChen]

AdrianChen Lenny HB autorouter
I have been in a finance meeting this past hour and so only just come back out to carry on the checks.
Am rather confused because the panel is now reading 13v ?!?
The “out” are still disconnected but i have reconnected the engine battery.
Could that have reset everything perhaps ?
Solar and EHU have been disabled all day.

Just firing up the ALDE and will then monitor for the rest of the afternoon and report later.
Putting the TV and all the lights has dragged it down a touch.

Stood in the van watching the panel, the ALDE has flicked a few Low Battery warnings but is still running…just !



View attachment 961714

Hmm panel is showing 11.5v in that pic.

But B1 being 0v is good news since it means the relay is probably fine.

A voltage drop along the positive cable to B2 is as AutoRouter says certainly an issue that needs correcting.
Still worried about those unidentified cables though, because the original difference between the battery and panel voltage was 3v but that might be when you had stuff powered up, since the "issue" may be worse when there is more current. The Alde will only be running a circulation pump as I presume you're on gas?

If you cant trace the other cables easily, see what stops working when they're disconnected, but B1 can certainly go back unless you want to keep R28 in place for a while, you'll just have a red button on the panel, and no CBE charging of the cab battery, for which you have the battery master running on your new 25mm cable. If you are going to leave R28 and fit a relay, you can at least leave b1 disconected until you've done all that.

Bet your getting sick of cables and meters!

 

[Winchester123]

Do you know what is the supply voltage to equipment such as your Alde pump when the panel reads 11.5v?
If this is low then it must be in the main power cable from the battery. There is I think a very large fuse that can blow but some power still available as some supplies are prior to this

 

[MarkHoughton]

Do you know what is the supply voltage to equipment such as your Alde pump when the panel reads 11.5v?
If this is low then it must be in the main power cable from the battery. There is I think a very large fuse that can blow but some power still available as some supplies are prior to this

Well my cable run is HAB Battery + to 250A fuse to Victron Isolator to Busbar to Carthago Isolator to B2 terminal. The 250A fuse is the original ( I did purchase a new one as a spare ).
Update at 4.35 pm ALDE still chucking out heat, all the lights fully on ( Turned the TV off earlier ) and display now shows 13.4v with a 2.7A draw.
So looking promising. Though I feel an after dark test will be the decider as that is when it used to go belly up earlier on in the year ( even though the solar is disabled ).
Fingers crossed.

 

[AdrianChen]

Well my cable run is HAB Battery + to 250A fuse to Victron Isolator to Busbar to Carthago Isolator to B2 terminal. The 250A fuse is the original ( I did purchase a new one as a spare ).
Update at 4.35 pm ALDE still chucking out heat, all the lights fully on ( Turned the TV off earlier ) and display now shows 13.4v with a 2.7A draw.
So looking promising. Though I feel an after dark test will be the decider as that is when it used to go belly up earlier on in the year ( even though the solar is disabled ).
Fingers crossed.
View attachment 961754

Looking hopeful! Although it would be nice to no what you have fixed, for it to be working......

I take it the original cable from the 250amp fuse to the Carthago Isolator was cut/replaced, and the Victron isolator and busbar were inserted, so the Carthago isolator to b2 is original?

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[MarkHoughton]

Looking hopeful! Although it would be nice to no what you have fixed, for it to be working......

I take it the original cable from the 250amp fuse to the Carthago Isolator was cut/replaced, and the Victron isolator and busbar were inserted, so the Carthago isolator to b2 is original?

Hi AdrianChen , the only thing I have done is have the engine battery totally disconnected for an hour or so whilst I did the other tests and both of the "OUT" cables were disconnected ( and still not re-connected ), but engine was re-connected.
I did not need to cut any wires as the original 50mm from the battery went to the 250a fuse and then the 50mm cable continued to the Carthago isolator. So I just unbolted the 'out' end and bolted on my new 50mm cable to my victron isolator and connected the original 'out' end to my new busbar.
Turned ALDE and lights off now ( these past 10 minutes ) as was getting rather warm inside the van, just rechecked the panel and it has a 'resting' state of 12.6v.
I will leave it a few hours now and then fire up everything later this evening and see what results I get.
The wife has just made some G&T's to enjoy in the remaining sunshine for the afternoon, so will update later.

 

[AdrianChen]

Hi AdrianChen , the only thing I have done is have the engine battery totally disconnected for an hour or so whilst I did the other tests and both of the "OUT" cables were disconnected ( and still not re-connected ), but engine was re-connected.
I did not need to cut any wires as the original 50mm from the battery went to the 250a fuse and then the 50mm cable continued to the Carthago isolator. So I just unbolted the 'out' end and bolted on my new 50mm cable to my victron isolator and connected the original 'out' end to my new busbar.
Turned ALDE and lights off now ( these past 10 minutes ) as was getting rather warm inside the van, just rechecked the panel and it has a 'resting' state of 12.6v.
I will leave it a few hours now and then fire up everything later this evening and see what results I get.
The wife has just made some G&T's to enjoy in the remaining sunshine for the afternoon, so will update later.

12.6v on the panel is low the actual battery voltage I think you said was up around 13.3v ish. Given how you installed the new bits Its likely if there is a problem its in the original Carthago part that you haven't replaced? (Huge assumption based on the principle the problem pre-dates your updates) So It would be good if you could bypass that old connection/isolator switch and run from the new busbar direct to the B2, even if with a temporary bit of cable to see if the panel hab voltage increases. Doesn't matter about the cable size too much if most things are switched off and the current is low. The other thing thats original is the 250amp fuse, so I would check that has clean terminals (shiny metal) on the fuse itself and the in side etc, and pop in your spare to see if that makes a difference.

Best done after a few more G&T's!

 

[MarkHoughton]

AdrianChen , well it has been a pyrrhic victory as when I have checked just now the power was just under 12v. Went to lock up and no central locking !
Turns out one of the “out” post cables is responsible for that. Plus trying both individually made the volts drop back down to 10.4v no matter which of the 2 were reconnected.

It is just rather odd that everything “worked” a few hours ago.

Will return to it in the morning and replace the fuse, cable etc as you suggest. At least I now know what 1 of the “out” cables is responsible for and duly labelled.

A whisper of hope at least this afternoon.

 

[AdrianChen]

AdrianChen , well it has been a pyrrhic victory as when I have checked just now the power was just under 12v. Went to lock up and no central locking !
Turns out one of the “out” post cables is responsible for that. Plus trying both individually made the volts drop back down to 10.4v no matter which of the 2 were reconnected.

It is just rather odd that everything “worked” a few hours ago.

Will return to it in the morning and replace the fuse, cable etc as you suggest. At least I now know what 1 of the “out” cables is responsible for and duly labelled.

A whisper of hope at least this afternoon.

Sorry to hear that, Out, as autorouter said, is linked to the power distribution in the DS, part of which feeds the separate little grey fusebox (X50 - Which is where my two 25amp central locking fuses are) I think looking at the only wiring diagram I have (2016 chic highline), but it would be odd for that to be connected as an output from that terminal. I'm guessing some previous work has been done, perhaps with some pragmatic/non standard solutions.

Seems to me the DS 470 needs a proper check, with the wiring set back to standard for your van, bit of a slog to go through it I guess, and getting hold of a wiring diagram for your specific van would need the help of a Carthago dealer.

Time to sleep on it.....

PS. If its a supply to that grey fuse box that perhaps has failed in the DS, then with those wires disconnected other stuff would also not work, which is stuff like the roof fan and 12v sockets on my van. Worth disconnecting the wires again and checking to see if its just the central locking. There would be other sources to power up the fusebox that might not drag the panel voltage down, but perhaps not controlled by the main panel.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Sorry to hear that, Out, as autorouter said, is linked to the power distribution in the DS, part of which feeds the separate little grey fusebox (X50 - Which is where my two 25amp central locking fuses are) I think looking at the only wiring diagram I have (2016 chic highline), but it would be odd for that to be connected as an output from that terminal. I'm guessing some previous work has been done, perhaps with some pragmatic/non standard solutions.

Seems to me the DS 470 needs a proper check, with the wiring set back to standard for your van, bit of a slog to go through it I guess, and getting hold of a wiring diagram for your specific van would need the help of a Carthago dealer.

Time to sleep on it.....

PS. If its a supply to that grey fuse box that perhaps has failed in the DS, then with those wires disconnected other stuff would also not work, which is stuff like the roof fan and 12v sockets on my van. Worth disconnecting the wires again and checking to see if its just the central locking. There would be other sources to power up the fusebox that might not drag the panel voltage down, but perhaps not controlled by the main panel.

I did post a wiring diagram on Cog for Elaine and Splus

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[Steve and Denise]

Under Iveco

 

[MarkHoughton]

Steve and Denise when I viewed this on my phone earlier, i thought it was a link to a download, but now can see it was a screenshot, which with my old eyes is not giving me much clarity. I will join Carthago Owners and search for it there, so just awaiting my membership being approved now !

 

[Steve and Denise]

Steve and Denise when I viewed this on my phone earlier, i thought it was a link to a download, but now can see it was a screenshot, which with my old eyes is not giving me much clarity. I will join Carthago Owners and search for it there.

It’s on the Carthago owners club site under tech it’s only £5 to join

 

[AdrianChen]

Steve and Denise when I viewed this on my phone earlier, i thought it was a link to a download, but now can see it was a screenshot, which with my old eyes is not giving me much clarity. I will join Carthago Owners and search for it there, so just awaiting my membership being approved now !

This might be the same one - 2016 Highline. Maybe not dead right for your E Line, but will be similar I guess

 

[MarkHoughton]

So Tuesday morning..removed the 2 OUT cables but panel shows just over 10v

Battery terminals and shunt read 12.73
POS to GND 12.73
NEG to B2 is 12.30
NEG to B1 is 12.49
B1 and B2 to GND both read 12.52

Little grey fuse box and 2 OUT cables, the spliced one is NOT the central locking

With central locking cable only connected then the NEG to B2/OUT reads 12.73
NEG to B1 reads 12.52
POS to GND reads 12.73
B2/OUT to GND read 12.73
B1 to GND reads 12.52

What does this show ?

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[autorouter]

Battery terminals and shunt read 12.73
POS to GND 12.73
NEG to B2 is 12.30

All those readings should be practically identical. The Pos to GND shows that the voltage drop along the negative cable, from Neg to GND, has an undetectably small voltage drop. That is what should happen. It should also happen along the Pos to B2 wire. The Neg to B2 voltage is 12.30V, a voltage drop of 0.43V.

So there is a voltage drop of 0.43V along the Pos to B2 wire. You have a fuse, a busbar, two switches and several joints to those items built in along the wire. The wire is 50mm² for at least part of the length, so the thickness is adequate.

One of those things - a fuse, switch or joint - is causing a voltage drop. You have to find out which one. Put one meter probe on the battery Neg terminal. Put the other probe on the battery Pos terminal. You should get 12.73V, as you said. Keeping the probe on the Neg terminal, move the other probe to test each joint and device in turn for voltage drop.

For example, to check that the joint from the battery terminal to the cable is good, check the voltage on the metal part of the cable terminal. OK, you expect it to be 12.73V, but if it wasn't tight, or there was hidden oxidation/corrosion, there would be a voltage drop. You have to actually check every joint, every possible place where there could be a problem. The switch contacts could be carboned up or oxidised, the fuse could be oxidised, the problem could be anywhere. But it is there somewhere, your voltage readings have shown that.

If you are getting a voltage drop of 0.43V with hardly any amps flowing, then as soon as serious amps start to flow the voltage drop will increase until it is unusable, as you discovered.

 

[MarkHoughton]

All those readings should be practically identical. The Pos to GND shows that the voltage drop along the negative cable, from Neg to GND, has an undetectably small voltage drop. That is what should happen. It should also happen along the Pos to B2 wire. The Neg to B2 voltage is 12.30V, a voltage drop of 0.43V.

So there is a voltage drop of 0.43V along the Pos to B2 wire. You have a fuse, a busbar, two switches and several joints to those items built in along the wire. The wire is 50mm² for at least part of the length, so the thickness is adequate.

One of those things - a fuse, switch or joint - is causing a voltage drop. You have to find out which one. Put one meter probe on the battery Neg terminal. Put the other probe on the battery Pos terminal. You should get 12.73V, as you said. Keeping the probe on the Neg terminal, move the other probe to test each joint and device in turn for voltage drop.

For example, to check that the joint from the battery terminal to the cable is good, check the voltage on the metal part of the cable terminal. OK, you expect it to be 12.73V, but if it wasn't tight, or there was hidden oxidation/corrosion, there would be a voltage drop. You have to actually check every joint, every possible place where there could be a problem. The switch contacts could be carboned up or oxidised, the fuse could be oxidised, the problem could be anywhere. But it is there somewhere, your voltage readings have shown that.

If you are getting a voltage drop of 0.43V with hardly any amps flowing, then as soon as serious amps start to flow the voltage drop will increase until it is unusable, as you discovered.

As per Adrian's suggestion last night, I have connected the new 200a mega fuse between the battery and the victron isolator switch and used the new mega fuse holder as well ( prior to doing those tests above ). Will try these now. Appreciate your patience on this.

 

[AdrianChen]

As per Adrian's suggestion last night, I have connected the new 200a mega fuse between the battery and the victron isolator switch and used the new mega fuse holder as well ( prior to doing those tests above ). Will try these now. Appreciate your patience on this.

As Autorouter says, you will need to confirm by checking along the length of the cable through each of the various joints, my assumption was that because you have always had this issue, it will be in the original part of the cable!

 

[MarkHoughton]

Confusion reigns !
So after the fuse change i did not re-test the HAB panel. 30 minutes ago ( well 11am ) I turned it on.... showed over 13v
Left it and had a coffee with the wife... checked after 10 minutes... still over 13v
Was concerned about a potential solar "leak" through the isolators so got on the roof and covered the panels with a huge sheet of 10mm rubber ! Plus it is a grey day.
Left that 5 minutes.
Turned on ALDE, all the lights and the inverter ( am currently plugged in with my laptop in the van ) boiled the kettle again...
The TV is on
No change... ALDE still fine and no drop on the panel which is reading 13.6v and a draw of around 5amp

What does NOT work is the kitchen fan OR the kitchen drawer central locking.

My HELLA USB outlet in the cab DOES work
The USB next to the cigar lighter does NOT work ( but I think that's on the engine anyway )

Now to determine what the supplementary 12v cable is doing other than the Fan ? Which is the only thing not working.

 

[MichaelT]

Confusion reigns !
So after the fuse change i did not re-test the HAB panel. 30 minutes ago ( well 11am ) I turned it on.... showed over 13v
Left it and had a coffee with the wife... checked after 10 minutes... still over 13v
Was concerned about a potential solar "leak" through the isolators so got on the roof and covered the panels with a huge sheet of 10mm rubber ! Plus it is a grey day.
Left that 5 minutes.
Turned on ALDE, all the lights and the inverter ( am currently plugged in with my laptop in the van ) boiled the kettle again...
The TV is on
No change... ALDE still fine and no drop on the panel which is reading 13.6v and a draw of around 5amp

What does NOT work is the kitchen fan OR the kitchen drawer central locking.

My HELLA USB outlet in the cab DOES work
The USB next to the cigar lighter does NOT work ( but I think that's on the engine anyway )

Now to determine what the supplementary 12v cable is doing other than the Fan ? Which is the only thing not working.

So was it a dodgy fuse?

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[AdrianChen]

So Tuesday morning..removed the 2 OUT cables but panel shows just over 10v

Battery terminals and shunt read 12.73
POS to GND 12.73
NEG to B2 is 12.30
NEG to B1 is 12.49
B1 and B2 to GND both read 12.52

Little grey fuse box and 2 OUT cables, the spliced one is NOT the central locking

With central locking cable only connected then the NEG to B2/OUT reads 12.73
NEG to B1 reads 12.52
POS to GND reads 12.73
B2/OUT to GND read 12.73
B1 to GND reads 12.52

What does this show ?



View attachment 962092

View attachment 962093

I think the five branch cable is a replacement - it doesn't look great for a factory install, hopefully there is solder under the insulation tape, and not just twisted together. These should be power to the roof fan and other bits and bobs including the central locking. Diagram shows the central locking is normally part of that cable, but a separate line goes off to the actual device, I wonder if this single red cable you have is spliced into the original circuit that provides the power for the actual solenoids on the locks, so when attached to "Out" its providing a voltage through B2. Just a guess but something seems strange, and easy to check if there is 12.73v on the cable - but it can wait.

I think the priority is to establish that the main feed into the DS via battery to B2 is as it should be, then you can have a good look at these cables to be sure they are doing what they should, in the meantime the DS box/panel and voltages on B1 B2 and GND should be accurate without these two connected to Out, so I would disconnect them to avoid any confusing issues.

PS diagram does show the supply coming of B2 (Z11) directly to the fuse box - then from the fusebox there is a further cable running to the central locking mechanisms with a load of relays etc

 

[AdrianChen]

I think the five branch cable is a replacement - it doesn't look great for a factory install, hopefully there is solder under the insulation tape, and not just twisted together. These should be power to the roof fan and other bits and bobs including the central locking. Diagram shows the central locking is normally part of that cable, but a separate line goes off to the actual device, I wonder if this single red cable you have is spliced into the original circuit that provides the power for the actual solenoids on the locks, so when attached to "Out" its providing a voltage through B2. Just a guess but something seems strange, and easy to check if there is 12.73v on the cable - but it can wait.

I think the priority is to establish that the main feed into the DS via battery to B2 is as it should be, then you can have a good look at these cables to be sure they are doing what they should, in the meantime the DS box/panel and voltages on B1 B2 and GND should be accurate without these two connected to Out, so I would disconnect them to avoid any confusing issues.

Oh - just seen your latest post - yippee progress!

 

[AdrianChen]

Confusion reigns !
So after the fuse change i did not re-test the HAB panel. 30 minutes ago ( well 11am ) I turned it on.... showed over 13v
Left it and had a coffee with the wife... checked after 10 minutes... still over 13v
Was concerned about a potential solar "leak" through the isolators so got on the roof and covered the panels with a huge sheet of 10mm rubber ! Plus it is a grey day.
Left that 5 minutes.
Turned on ALDE, all the lights and the inverter ( am currently plugged in with my laptop in the van ) boiled the kettle again...
The TV is on
No change... ALDE still fine and no drop on the panel which is reading 13.6v and a draw of around 5amp

What does NOT work is the kitchen fan OR the kitchen drawer central locking.

My HELLA USB outlet in the cab DOES work
The USB next to the cigar lighter does NOT work ( but I think that's on the engine anyway )

Now to determine what the supplementary 12v cable is doing other than the Fan ? Which is the only thing not working.

Kitchen fan, Kitchen drawer central locking and Carthago USB/12v sockets all run through the grey box on mine - so the power for them should come through that 5 branch cable. Details should be in the fuses section of your manual.

Hopefully now your battery will charge up properly as well!

 

[MarkHoughton]

Kitchen fan, Kitchen drawer central locking and Carthago USB/12v sockets all run through the grey box on mine - so the power for them should come through that 5 branch cable. Details should be in the fuses section of your manual.

Hopefully now your battery will charge up properly as well!

I reconnected the "2nd extra OUT" cable and the kitchen draw locking and fan now work.
The ALDE was restarted and all the lights on , it has been running for the last 25 minutes. The ALDE was on the highest water and 30' setting, the extractor fan was on full, the inverter running and a kettle boiling... No drop below 13v

When I do turn on the TV... I get a big drop to 11v and a "Low Battery" warning on the ALDE, but as soon as I turn off the TV it all pops back up and carries on running again. We can live without the TV, the only time we have turned it on is to do these tests anyway.

Have shut it all down now as was getting rather hot inside the van. So appears to be problem solved. I have not bothered re-checking the voltages though seeing as the actual 'run' test has provided me with the services I require.

Cheers all !

 

[MarkHoughton]

Premature as always... so just gone back to do a check... everything has been off ( including panel ) this past 20 minutes... Now only giving me the 11v again ?!?!
what is going on ?
Lunch now so will revert back to removing the OUTs and see what happens.

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[AdrianChen]

Premature as always... so just gone back to do a check... everything has been off ( including panel ) this past 20 minutes... Now only giving me the 11v again ?!?!
what is going on ?
Lunch now so will revert back to removing the OUTs and see what happens.

Yes power down from the isolator switches, then power it up with the outs removed and let the panel boot up. Would still check the rest of the positive cable run up to B2. there may be more!

Intermittent faults are the most difficult to find but interested that the TV caused a volt drop, because it shouldn't, so still something strange going on.....

 

[MarkHoughton]

Yes power down from the isolator switches, then power it up with the outs removed and let the panel boot up. Would still check the rest of the positive cable run up to B2. there may be more!

Intermittent faults are the most difficult to find but interested that the TV caused a volt drop, because it shouldn't, so still something strange going on.....

Removed BOTH outs, the battery to terminal tests now all read 12.7 and the panel shows 13 !
Just about to rain for the rest of the day so may have to park any more tinkering.
So disappointed, was convinced it had resolved. Can you imagine the cost if this was in at a dealer…they see no fault, comes back to me and fault manifests. Nightmare !

Not only that but had the ALDE running now 20 minutes with no volt drop !

 

[AdrianChen]

Removed BOTH outs, the battery to terminal tests now all read 12.7 and the panel shows 13 !
Just about to rain for the rest of the day so may have to park any more tinkering.
So disappointed, was convinced it had resolved. Can you imagine the cost if this was in at a dealer…they see no fault, comes back to me and fault manifests. Nightmare !

Not only that but had the ALDE running now 20 minutes with no volt drop !

Does seem to have something to do with those two cables.....

Calibration to the panel could easily be just adjustment required, which I think allows up to +/-0.5v on the panel Prog/settings menu.

 

[Lenny HB]

I've had problems with isolator switches, they have a stud connected to the terminal with a nut that holds it to the plastic body of the switch, then another nut on the stud that you clamp the cable terminal to. I have found that the nut holding the the terminal in place if it if either too tight or too lose it can distort the terminal causing a poor contact.

I would try bypassing the isolator switches, just use a nut and bolt to join the cable terminals together.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I've had problems with isolator switches, they have a stud connected to the terminal with a nut that holds it to the plastic body of the switch, then another nut on the stud that you clamp the cable terminal to. I have found that the nut holding the the terminal in place if it if either too tight or too lose it can distort the terminal causing a poor contact.

I would try bypassing the isolator switches, just use a nut and bolt to join the cable terminals together.

As I suggested earlier bridge the isolator, I had a 500amp one fail at around 160amps it just melted I replaced it with a much better quality one from a chandelers

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