Carthago 5.5t on Ducato 180 bhp struggle to go uphill (1 Viewer)

[optimus-prime]

Hi forum, freshly subscribed member, but long time reader. I am new to motor-homing, coming from caravanning, and as the title suggests, I had some issues going uphill with my new Carthago quite heavy motorhome. Hence, I'm looking for your experiences to understand if this is how it should be, or I should pay a visit to a Fiat dealer.

Setup: Carthago liner-for-two model 2023, fully loaded at 5500 kg, Fiat Ducato 2.2l 132 kW (177 bhp), automatic gear box, alko tag axle chassis. Everything runs as expected on highways and flat roads, but I have just returned from a trip in Tyrol, Austria, where currently the Arlberg tunnel is closed and traffic is directed over the Arlberg pass (1800m height) which according to google has a maximum gradient of 13%. In both ways, the ascent starts with a straight segment slightly inclined. In both ways, my motorhome could not drive faster than 30-35 km/h (18-21 mph). Acceleration was on the floor, auto gearbox changed to the third gear (out of 8), and this was the max speed. Needless to describe the queue behind me.... after manually forcing the gearbox on the 2nd gear, I was able to drive 5 kmh faster, but the engine was obviously very loud. Unfortunatelly because of the stressful situation, I did not think to check the rpm of the engine... I was just listening to it, and it felt to me as it was over revved.
To cut the long story short, how fast do the funsters drive in mountain areas (straight road, not curves) with similarly heavy motorhomes? In about 3 weeks I'm planning to start driving towards Norway, and I'm pretty sure there will be more inclined roads over there.

 

[Lenny HB]

I think you have a problem, the new 2.2 with the Auto box absolutely flys should sail up the hills something deffinatly not right I would get it to a Fiat dealer ASAP.

 

[DavidG58]

I think you have a problem, the new 2.2 with the Auto box absolutely flys should sail up the hills something deffinatly not right I would get it to a Fiat dealer ASAP.

Yours is 2 tonnes lighter I would expect it to fly compared to OP but do agree something doesn’t sound right , although 13% gradient is 1:8 so not insignificant

How is it on inclines on UK motorways

 

[rosalan]

If Lenny HB says there is a problem, have faith in him.

 

[Ridgeway]

Did you select power mode on the gearbox ? This helps quite a bit although only lowers the revs at which a gear change is made.

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[optimus-prime]

Thanks for the replies. I just checked now on google maps, and the incline is indeed 13% on that section of the road. It can be seen here: link. It can also be seen that there are no tight turns, with a normal car you could easily drive at the speed limit (80 kmh - 50mph)
Given that the MH is less than a year old, and still under warranty, would you advise to go to a Carthago dealer? Or any Fiat garage would be fine?

 

[optimus-prime]

Did you select power mode on the gearbox ? This helps quite a bit although only lowers the revs at which a gear change is made.

On the way there, I did not. I even forgot this was an option, but on the way back I did, and I did not notice any improvement.

 

[Manxcat]

If I weighed 5.5t I would struggle going uphill

 

[dunnah01]

The auto box shouldn't go much above 2000rpm so if it got to a state that you think it was over-revving then it sounds like something is wrong in the gearbox.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Not a modem van or diesel engine, my 3.5t Fiat 2.8jtd cruises at 60mph on the flat.
Approaching a hill I put my foot down to reach 70+ and the van romps up, leave it at 60 and I'd be down to 4th gear,even 3rd on a long steep incline...

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[optimus-prime]

The auto box shouldn't go much above 2000rpm so if it got to a state that you think it was over-revving then it sounds like something is wrong in the gearbox.

It sounded like it was over-revving when I changed to manual, and down shifted in the 2nd gear. At that time I noticed I was able to gain a few extra mph, but the sound was not right to me and I decided to go back to auto, the box shifted in the 3rd gear, and speed dropped at about 20 mph.

 

[Carpmart]

Big inclines are all about momentum, planning gear selection and steady revs in a large Motorhome with a small engine.

Select your gear and chug up them. You do not gain momentum going up a hill with 180 hp and five tonnes plus. You don’t want any gear changes really as it kill momentum.

 

[rosalan]

Dealer or Fiat? Depends whether your dealer is also a Fiat agent but if there is a warranty problem, they should be your first call,

 

[Guigsy]

13% is steep, especially for a 5.5t van. But it should still manage more than 20mph without much effort.

 

[Ridgeway]

Can only comment from my experience with an identical set up albeit with a different flavour of MoHo. I’ve never felt that the engine or gearbox was struggling and we cross the alps pretty much monthly through the summer. We are just back from Norway though and some of the roads there are steeper for longer ie a sustained +10% vs in the alps were 7% is the norm and occasionally and for shorter stretches in can be steeper, there we had to push the engine more.

Usually we can cruise up Alpine climbs at say 40-50kmh also considering that going faster isn’t any way too safe in a big ice cream van. Usually we’re around 2000rpm on a climb, maybe going to 3000rpm after a hairpin and when changing down. Never needed to use manual and so far auto has been great, managing all the climbs we have done. The main limitation of this van set up on climbs (our experience) is the grip from the FWD, that will likely give up on a slippy road surface above 15% or when you exit a hairpin and your back end is yet to be dragged around the corner (hence a wide swing to avoid that as best you can)

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[Rob Turner]

I’m at 5t with the same engine/box and it’s absolutely fine up and around the alps.

 

[Lenny HB]

Yours is 2 tonnes lighter I would expect it to fly compared to OP but do agree something doesn’t sound right , although 13% gradient is 1:8 so not insignificant

How is it on inclines on UK motorways

My last van was 4.5t with the 2.3, 150hp with Comformatic box that had no problem with mountain roads.
The 2.2 180hp engine is far superior with power delivery should easily be able to cope.

 

[dunnah01]

Big inclines are all about momentum, planning gear selection and steady revs in a large Motorhome with a small engine.

Select your gear and chug up them. You do not gain momentum going up a hill with 180 hp and five tonnes plus. You don’t want any gear changes really as it kill momentum.

Modern autos change gear very quickly so no real loss of momentum. The controls keep the engine around max torque so between 1500-1750rpm (110bhp) for the 180bhp engine. At these revs the engine is producing 450Nm of torque which should be ample to haul 5.5t up a 13% incline without really working too hard.

 

[Toxkid]

Hello, I think you do have a problem, as other posters have stated. The gearbox should have kicked down (into 2nd) in the circumstances you stated. Was the loud engine noise, actually the engine cooling fan kicking in? It's very noisy, I noticed in our van the fan was used a lot over the Pyrenees earlier this year.

 

[Pausim]

13% is about 1 in 8 in old money and 5,500kg is a lot to drag up such a steep hill.

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[MichaelT]

Hello, I think you do have a problem, as other posters have stated. The gearbox should have kicked down (into 2nd) in the circumstances you stated. Was the loud engine noise, actually the engine cooling fan kicking in? It's very noisy, I noticed in our van the fan was used a lot over the Pyrenees earlier this year.

Yes I've really noticed it kicks in a lot on our new van and can hear it even when cruising at 60, older van only heard it when coming to a stop. New van don't hear the engine at all. Power mode helps up hills but think the OP should get the engine checked.

 

[cyberyacht]

1 in 8 is hardly vertiginous. Porlock Hill in Somerset is 1 in 4 with a hairpin and, whilst my Compactline is only 3500Kg with a 150bhp engine, I can climb that without too much difficulty. Is your handbrake off?

 

[Carpmart]

Modern autos change gear very quickly so no real loss of momentum. The controls keep the engine around max torque so between 1500-1750rpm (110bhp) for the 180bhp engine. At these revs the engine is producing 450Nm of torque which should be ample to haul 5.5t up a 13% incline without really working too hard.

It’s clearly not working for the OP though!

This almost comes back to the debate on the other thread, auto vs manual. IMHO, I want to be picking the gear and not the box on tricky inclines. The OP suggests he was trying to accelerate up a steep incline.. a small engine, however much torque it delivers, will always struggle pulling 5.5T up big and steep inclines.

These vehicles with larger weights (not 3.5T) are not car like with these small displacement engines and need driving specifically up and downhill.

 

[Guigsy]

It’s clearly not working for the OP though!

This almost comes back to the debate on the other thread, auto vs manual. IMHO, I want to be picking the gear and not the box on tricky inclines. The OP suggests he was trying to accelerate up a steep incline.. a small engine, however much torque it delivers, will always struggle pulling 5.5T up big and steep inclines.

These vehicles with larger weights (not 3.5T) are not car like with these small displacement engines and need driving specifically up and downhill.

Torque converter autos can deliver more torque to pull away than a friction clutch. They lock up once spinning, so little power loss. They have a manual selection mode. They change quicker than a manual. And there are more ratios. I don't think having a manual would give much advantage.

 

[DBK]

I would contact a Fiat Professional outfit. There have been reports of some gearboxes not being properly filled with oil which might impact on the efficiency of the torque converter.

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[Ridgeway]

I would contact a Fiat Professional outfit. There have been reports of some gearboxes not being properly filled with oil which might impact on the efficiency of the torque converter.

in fact i think there was another similar thread about a month ago, it's where i was reminded about the "power" option on the gearbox selection.

Here

 

[tonyidle]

Torque converter autos can deliver more torque to pull away than a friction clutch. They lock up once spinning, so little power loss. They have a manual selection mode. They change quicker than a manual. And there are more ratios. I don't think having a manual would give much advantage.

My 5.5T with (Quantum tuned) 330bhp Merc V6 5 speed auto romps up Shap Fell at 50 mph. Probably 1 in 8 at the steepest. It also holds each gear over 4000rpm before changing up at full throttle. The move to more gears (8 speed autos) is driven entirely by the use of smaller capacity engines. Full throttle will be needed on steeper hills.

 

[maison]

I would forget the manual v automatic comments. Members with similar set-ups to the OP say their units “romp up” similar hills.

That suggests a problem with the OP’s unit.

 

[TinaLes]

I would get the van checked out by Fiat Professional (if you can find one that has a big enough ramp)
It could be a Turbo Pressure problem caused by a leak, or knackered Turbo, blocked DPF, no one will know until its been checked out by a mechanic with some experience.
If it did not pose such a difficult task to find, ideally a rolling road taking the van through the rev range and gears would show up the actual BHP being delivered and map it showing any flat spots that shouldn't be there.
I also agree with Harvey Carpmart what he is actually saying is there aint no replacement for displacement. A small 2.2 ltr 180 Ps Turbo Charged engine will always struggle up long hills without a run up and correct gear selection pulling 5 tonnes, the lighter the van, the more chance it has of holding the required speed.
I hope the OP gets the van checked out under warranty FOC, and give us some feedback as to what if any faults were found.
LES

 

[Guigsy]

My 5.5T with (Quantum tuned) 330bhp Merc V6 5 speed auto romps up Shap Fell at 50 mph. Probably 1 in 8 at the steepest. It also holds each gear over 4000rpm before changing up at full throttle. The move to more gears (8 speed autos) is driven entirely by the use of smaller capacity engines. Full throttle will be needed on steeper hills.

If the same engine is mated to a 6 speed manual, it isn't going to be any better on the hills.