Carthago 5.5t on Ducato 180 bhp struggle to go uphill

[optimus-prime]

Hi forum, freshly subscribed member, but long time reader. I am new to motor-homing, coming from caravanning, and as the title suggests, I had some issues going uphill with my new Carthago quite heavy motorhome. Hence, I'm looking for your experiences to understand if this is how it should be, or I should pay a visit to a Fiat dealer.

Setup: Carthago liner-for-two model 2023, fully loaded at 5500 kg, Fiat Ducato 2.2l 132 kW (177 bhp), automatic gear box, alko tag axle chassis. Everything runs as expected on highways and flat roads, but I have just returned from a trip in Tyrol, Austria, where currently the Arlberg tunnel is closed and traffic is directed over the Arlberg pass (1800m height) which according to google has a maximum gradient of 13%. In both ways, the ascent starts with a straight segment slightly inclined. In both ways, my motorhome could not drive faster than 30-35 km/h (18-21 mph). Acceleration was on the floor, auto gearbox changed to the third gear (out of 8), and this was the max speed. Needless to describe the queue behind me.... after manually forcing the gearbox on the 2nd gear, I was able to drive 5 kmh faster, but the engine was obviously very loud. Unfortunatelly because of the stressful situation, I did not think to check the rpm of the engine... I was just listening to it, and it felt to me as it was over revved.
To cut the long story short, how fast do the funsters drive in mountain areas (straight road, not curves) with similarly heavy motorhomes? In about 3 weeks I'm planning to start driving towards Norway, and I'm pretty sure there will be more inclined roads over there.

 

[WESTY66]

Not really rellavant as it's the final result that counts.
The 2.2, 180 is so much smoother and resposive to drive I reckon it will leave the 3 Lt in the dust.

Get yer towing eye out

 

[WESTY66]

Not really rellavant as it's the final result that counts.
The 2.2, 180 is so much smoother and resposive to drive I reckon it will leave the 3 Lt in the dust.

It should be tha’t only 3.5t, it’s a paperweight

 

[optimus-prime]

How many miles have you done?
I don't know about the 2.2L but the 2.3L engine is quite "tight" until you have done at least 5000 to 10,000 miles.

I was also thinking about this, and wanted to ask the forum what they think... the MH is just shy of 1.5k miles

Thanks a lot for all the replies. It looks like I have to get it checked, but at the same time I want to start driving towards Norway before the start of September. Hopefully I'll find a garage (who speaks english, as I don't speak German) during the next 3 weeks. Otherwise I'll drive slowly and hopefully Norway won't be that crowded in September.

Either way, I'm going to report back with the feedback from the garage, or from the additional miles.

 

[Ridgeway]

I was also thinking about this, and wanted to ask the forum what they think... the MH is just shy of 1.5k miles

Thanks a lot for all the replies. It looks like I have to get it checked, but at the same time I want to start driving towards Norway before the start of September. Hopefully I'll find a garage (who speaks english, as I don't speak German) during the next 3 weeks. Otherwise I'll drive slowly and hopefully Norway won't be that crowded in September.

Either way, I'm going to report back with the feedback from the garage, or from the additional miles.

Which dealer did you buy it from, if your location is correct then I’d guess at the place in Arbon ? optimus-prime

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[ChrisL]

Weight does make a massive difference, we had a 4 tonne Hymer with Merc 2.7 156bhp it flew up hills, we had the same engine on a 6 tonne Hymer it was embarrassing going on anything but flat or downhill.

I have an embarrassing on hills 6 tonne Hymer, it used to be much worse then it is now though, just swapping the old air filter which was pretty clean when i took it out for a new blueprint one has made a considerable difference, it's still not quick but it's not quite as embarrassing as it was

 

[Landy Andy]

I think taking it to any dealer in the UK would lead to a young chap with a plug in box going out to your van plugging it in, then declaring “it says there’s nothing wrong with it”. A tech won’t have driven such a vehicle before. I think you need to drive someone else’s, or someone who has similar drives yours.

Hopefully a non UK dealer maybe better

 

[optimus-prime]

Which dealer did you buy it from, if your location is correct then I’d guess at the place in Arbon ? optimus-prime

I bought it in Munich and imported it in Switzerland... I live 30 km west of Zurich, so the closest Carthago dealer is Bantam in Urdorf, but I was thinking to go to a Fiat dealer. Checking the Fiat Professional website, I found that IVECO is also on the list, and there's a big one nearby. This would be my first call today, or do you have any recommendations?

 

[Ridgeway]

I bought it in Munich and imported it in Switzerland... I live 30 km west of Zurich, so the closest Carthago dealer is Bantam in Urdorf, but I was thinking to go to a Fiat dealer. Checking the Fiat Professional website, I found that IVECO is also on the list, and there's a big one nearby. This would be my first call today, or do you have any recommendations?

Not really, was only going to say that nearly all the dealers here that I know take the van to fiat anyway, so I’d just go directly there.

 

[Davecrawf]

Thanks for the replies. I just checked now on google maps, and the incline is indeed 13% on that section of the road. It can be seen here: link. It can also be seen that there are no tight turns, with a normal car you could easily drive at the speed limit (80 kmh - 50mph)
Given that the MH is less than a year old, and still under warranty, would you advise to go to a Carthago dealer? Or any Fiat garage would be fine?

Try to get a recommendation if you can. Main dealer isn't always the best option IMHO

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[MichaelT]

Try to get a recommendation if you can. Main dealer isn't always the best option IMHO

But if it's under warranty then no choice plus they will have all the diagnostic equipment and access to Fiat for help and any software updates that may be needed.

 

[Ridgeway]

But if it's under warranty then no choice plus they will have all the diagnostic equipment and access to Fiat for help and any software updates that may be needed.

Yeah but his dealer is 4hrs away and he doesn't speak their language, plus unless it's a decently sized one from what i've seen most of the dealers just go to fiat any way. For me a local Fiat pro garage would be my first step.

Good luck and let us know what the outcome is.

 

[MichaelT]

Yeah but his dealer is 4hrs away and he doesn't speak their language, plus unless it's a decently sized one from what i've seen most of the dealers just go to fiat any way. For me a local Fiat pro garage would be my first step.

Good luck and let us know what the outcome is.

That's what I meant Fiat professional garage?

 

[BellaC]

Hi forum, freshly subscribed member, but long time reader. I am new to motor-homing, coming from caravanning, and as the title suggests, I had some issues going uphill with my new Carthago quite heavy motorhome. Hence, I'm looking for your experiences to understand if this is how it should be, or I should pay a visit to a Fiat dealer.

Setup: Carthago liner-for-two model 2023, fully loaded at 5500 kg, Fiat Ducato 2.2l 132 kW (177 bhp), automatic gear box, alko tag axle chassis. Everything runs as expected on highways and flat roads, but I have just returned from a trip in Tyrol, Austria, where currently the Arlberg tunnel is closed and traffic is directed over the Arlberg pass (1800m height) which according to google has a maximum gradient of 13%. In both ways, the ascent starts with a straight segment slightly inclined. In both ways, my motorhome could not drive faster than 30-35 km/h (18-21 mph). Acceleration was on the floor, auto gearbox changed to the third gear (out of 8), and this was the max speed. Needless to describe the queue behind me.... after manually forcing the gearbox on the 2nd gear, I was able to drive 5 kmh faster, but the engine was obviously very loud. Unfortunatelly because of the stressful situation, I did not think to check the rpm of the engine... I was just listening to it, and it felt to me as it was over revved.
To cut the long story short, how fast do the funsters drive in mountain areas (straight road, not curves) with similarly heavy motorhomes? In about 3 weeks I'm planning to start driving towards Norway, and I'm pretty sure there will be more inclined roads over there.

We have a Carthago Chic E Line QB Tag axle 5.5t on the Mercedes platform. We had to go over the Arlberg pass as the tunnel was closed last September and had no issues at all. I can’t remember speeds etc but kept up with the traffic in front. Think you might have an issue

 

[MichaelT]

We have a Carthago Chic E Line QB Tag axle 5.5t on the Mercedes platform. We had to go over the Arlberg pass as the tunnel was closed last September and had no issues at all. I can’t remember speeds etc but kept up with the traffic in front. Think you might have an issue

I personally think maybe he heard the fan cutting in and thought it was the engine so maybe didn't push it but let's see once he's been to the garage.

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[WESTY66]

I personally think maybe he heard the fan cutting in and thought it was the engine so maybe didn't push it but let's see once he's been to the garage.

They are a bit noisy, especially with aircon on

 

[IRHP]

Reading a lot about torque versus BHP.
Can someone explain this?
If I'm driving along at 65mph in 6th around 1800 rpm which I believe is around the maximum torque and I approach a hill and my foot is on the floor the speed gradually falls until I need to change gear but if I drop it into 5th before the hill and the revs go up to around 2200rpm the van will continue up the hill at the same speed. So why at the max torque won't it? Is it because I'm producing more bhp with the turbo performing better at 2200rpm and producing more bhp?

 

[tonyidle]

Reading a lot about torque versus BHP.
Can someone explain this?
If I'm driving along at 65mph in 6th around 1800 rpm which I believe is around the maximum torque and I approach a hill and my foot is on the floor the speed gradually falls until I need to change gear but if I drop it into 5th before the hill and the revs go up to around 2200rpm the van will continue up the hill at the same speed. So why at the max torque won't it? Is it because I'm producing more bhp with the turbo performing better at 2200rpm?

Yes.

 

[flatpackchicken]

Reading all the comments and the problem you have, sounds to me like it’s possibly in limp mode !!! As I have a 2001 Mrercedes 8m Frankia at 5t and 6.6t (with trailer) And it romps up mountains, especially the 2 in Spain that drag on for nearly 5 miles going up !!!!! and only ever drop down 1 gear to about 40 mph !!!! Although I did last year drop down on same mountain just outside Salamanca (going south) to 20mph !!! Wondered what was wrong, but it had gone into limp mode for some reason !!!!!!!! and I had only just started that morning as overnighted in Salamanca, so pulled over turned engine off waited 10 mins started up again and hey presto perfect !!!!!!!! Don’t know what caused it but had just filled up with diesel in Salamanca too so maybe bit of water in fuel !!!
After going about 200 miles to next overnight stop and many big hills etc later and all ok, I put the diagnostic tool on and no faults came up !!!!! So still stumped to this day why it went into limp mode as rest of journey down and all the way home not a problem at all !!!!!
Although I do have a Vortex exhaust fitted that does give me some extra power, my engine still seems to pull like a train at 6.6t all up with car on trailer, so I wonder if you have a power problem with the limp mode cutting you right down and that would explain the slowness up the big mountain climb maybe !!!! Good luck

 

[funflair]

Reading a lot about torque versus BHP.
Can someone explain this?
If I'm driving along at 65mph in 6th around 1800 rpm which I believe is around the maximum torque and I approach a hill and my foot is on the floor the speed gradually falls until I need to change gear but if I drop it into 5th before the hill and the revs go up to around 2200rpm the van will continue up the hill at the same speed. So why at the max torque won't it? Is it because I'm producing more bhp with the turbo performing better at 2200rpm?

It's just the same on a push bike, the maximum torque is how hard you can push on the pedals and maximum power occurs when you are spinning fast but still able to put significant pressure on the pedals (Power = Torque x Revs) but it doesn't matter how hard you can push you need also to be in the right gear, a higher gear reduces the torque available at the driven wheel.

Incidentally did you realise that an olympic track cyclist produces around 700 nm of torque off the start line

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[MichaelT]

They are a bit noisy, especially with aircon on

The new ones are a lot more noisy than the 2.3l and cut in more even when travelling.

 

[IRHP]

Yes.

So bhp is as important as torque?
I've been driving for over forty years so I know what works best , I know when to change gear and when not but never thought about the torque versus bhp thing but keep seeing people saying torque is more important.

 

[bigtwin]

Reading a lot about torque versus BHP.
Can someone explain this?
If I'm driving along at 65mph in 6th around 1800 rpm which I believe is around the maximum torque and I approach a hill and my foot is on the floor the speed gradually falls until I need to change gear but if I drop it into 5th before the hill and the revs go up to around 2200rpm the van will continue up the hill at the same speed. So why at the max torque won't it? Is it because I'm producing more bhp with the turbo performing better at 2200rpm and producing more bhp?

Because of this:

It's only torque at the wheels which counts and this is increased by changing to a lower gear. BHP is calculated from torque multiplied by rpm. This means for the same BHP a high revving engine will have lower torque at the crankshaft but this will generate the same torque at the wheels as a lower revving engine with higher torque at the crank shaft.

And this:

it doesn't matter how hard you can push you need also to be in the right gear, a higher gear reduces the torque available at the driven wheel.

Ian

 

[tonyidle]

So bhp is as important as torque?
I've been driving for over forty years so I know what works best , I know when to change gear and when not but never thought about the torque versus bhp thing but keep seeing people saying torque is more important.

Torque spread is most important. It's why bigger engines are more relaxing to drive - basically require less gear changing. BHP and torque are inextricably linked so more torque = more bhp. Peak torque rpm is where the engine is most efficient but isn't necessarily where max bhp occurs.

 

[Spriddler]

BHP is calculated from torque multiplied by rpm. This means for the same BHP a high revving engine will have lower torque at the crankshaft but this will generate the same torque at the wheels as a lower revving engine with higher torque at the crank shaft.

Quite so. I'm an old skool motor engineer (started my apprenticeship in 1963) and remember the days when diesels were slow revving, heavy flywheeled, naturally aspirated engines (e.g. for dumper trucks, tractors and buses) which only needed transmissions with as few as 3 gears. Today's diesels are still relatively slow-revving vs petrol engines but have intelligent engine management systems and turbos to maximise power throughout their fairly narrow rev range and hence have (need) 5, 6 or 7 gears to maximise that 'limited' rev range effectively at all road speeds and loaded conditions.

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[funflair]

Torque spread is most important. It's why bigger engines are more relaxing to drive - basically require less gear changing. BHP and torque are inextricably linked so more torque = more bhp. Peak torque rpm is where the engine is most efficient but isn't necessarily where max bhp occurs.

Interesting torque curves on Fiat web site, AT is automatic and MT is manual transmission, the maximum torque for the Automatic map is only spread over 250 revs hence the move to more gear ratios to keep in the sweet spot.

 

[125BEER]

Thanks for the replies. I just checked now on google maps, and the incline is indeed 13% on that section of the road. It can be seen here: link. It can also be seen that there are no tight turns, with a normal car you could easily drive at the speed limit (80 kmh - 50mph)
Given that the MH is less than a year old, and still under warranty, would you advise to go to a Carthago dealer? Or any Fiat garage would be fine?

See post #2

Cheers

 

[jako999]

Just hit 5,000 miles and ours is getting better. I have a TDI map box on our that makes a difference in power torque and mpg. My next step is probably going to be a k&n air filter.
They keep reducing the cc and they just can’t cope, I know many have said about the old 3.0L but I’d have it back any day 70 up hills in top gear pulling a race car on a trailer didn’t slow it down and on a autobahn at night I thought I’d see what it would do I was amazed, I chickened out at 117 very irresponsible I know

 

[Spriddler]

They keep reducing the cc and they just can’t cope, I know many have said about the old 3.0L but I’d have it back any day 70 up hills in top gear pulling a race car on a trailer didn’t slow it down

Yep. My son has been looking for a large engined/torque saloon or estate car for towing his caravan to replace his Range Rover as his wife now has a 27 mile drive each way to work, largely in country roads so something more dual purpose/economical would be good. Unfortunately most cars, even 'big' saloons seem to have highly technologically controlled small engines. Even the F1 race cars only have 1.6L petrol engines and rely on the turbo, variable valve timing etc. and electronics to achieve fantastic power and speeds of over 200mph, albeit at 15,000 to 20,000rpm - about ten times the revs range of the average diesel engine.
Looks like a second car will be needed.

 

[Waterford Mike]

Hi forum, freshly subscribed member, but long time reader. I am new to motor-homing, coming from caravanning, and as the title suggests, I had some issues going uphill with my new Carthago quite heavy motorhome. Hence, I'm looking for your experiences to understand if this is how it should be, or I should pay a visit to a Fiat dealer.

Setup: Carthago liner-for-two model 2023, fully loaded at 5500 kg, Fiat Ducato 2.2l 132 kW (177 bhp), automatic gear box, alko tag axle chassis. Everything runs as expected on highways and flat roads, but I have just returned from a trip in Tyrol, Austria, where currently the Arlberg tunnel is closed and traffic is directed over the Arlberg pass (1800m height) which according to google has a maximum gradient of 13%. In both ways, the ascent starts with a straight segment slightly inclined. In both ways, my motorhome could not drive faster than 30-35 km/h (18-21 mph). Acceleration was on the floor, auto gearbox changed to the third gear (out of 8), and this was the max speed. Needless to describe the queue behind me.... after manually forcing the gearbox on the 2nd gear, I was able to drive 5 kmh faster, but the engine was obviously very loud. Unfortunatelly because of the stressful situation, I did not think to check the rpm of the engine... I was just listening to it, and it felt to me as it was over revved.
To cut the long story short, how fast do the funsters drive in mountain areas (straight road, not curves) with similarly heavy motorhomes? In about 3 weeks I'm planning to start driving towards Norway, and I'm pretty sure there will be more inclined roads over there.

Hi Optimus - prime, I have exactly the same Carthago L-4- two 2023 model with same engine and gearbox, and never feel it is underpowered for an incline. If you have changed the gearbox power selection and don't feel any difference it sounds like you have a problem. Silly question but have you tried to drive the box manually ( move gearlever to the left and shift forward and back), sorry if this is a bit obvious but sometimes the obvious is forgotten. The weight rating of 5500 kg seems a bit heavy though, I'm rated up from 4500 kg to 4800 kg and I thought that was about the maximum ?

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[Waterford Mike]

Hi forum, freshly subscribed member, but long time reader. I am new to motor-homing, coming from caravanning, and as the title suggests, I had some issues going uphill with my new Carthago quite heavy motorhome. Hence, I'm looking for your experiences to understand if this is how it should be, or I should pay a visit to a Fiat dealer.

Setup: Carthago liner-for-two model 2023, fully loaded at 5500 kg, Fiat Ducato 2.2l 132 kW (177 bhp), automatic gear box, alko tag axle chassis. Everything runs as expected on highways and flat roads, but I have just returned from a trip in Tyrol, Austria, where currently the Arlberg tunnel is closed and traffic is directed over the Arlberg pass (1800m height) which according to google has a maximum gradient of 13%. In both ways, the ascent starts with a straight segment slightly inclined. In both ways, my motorhome could not drive faster than 30-35 km/h (18-21 mph). Acceleration was on the floor, auto gearbox changed to the third gear (out of 8), and this was the max speed. Needless to describe the queue behind me.... after manually forcing the gearbox on the 2nd gear, I was able to drive 5 kmh faster, but the engine was obviously very loud. Unfortunatelly because of the stressful situation, I did not think to check the rpm of the engine... I was just listening to it, and it felt to me as it was over revved.
To cut the long story short, how fast do the funsters drive in mountain areas (straight road, not curves) with similarly heavy motorhomes? In about 3 weeks I'm planning to start driving towards Norway, and I'm pretty sure there will be more inclined roads over there.

Apologies, just realised you are tag axle so rated heavier 5500kg. I really must try and focus what little brain I have left !