Carthago 5.5t on Ducato 180 bhp struggle to go uphill (1 Viewer)

[optimus-prime]

Hi forum, freshly subscribed member, but long time reader. I am new to motor-homing, coming from caravanning, and as the title suggests, I had some issues going uphill with my new Carthago quite heavy motorhome. Hence, I'm looking for your experiences to understand if this is how it should be, or I should pay a visit to a Fiat dealer.

Setup: Carthago liner-for-two model 2023, fully loaded at 5500 kg, Fiat Ducato 2.2l 132 kW (177 bhp), automatic gear box, alko tag axle chassis. Everything runs as expected on highways and flat roads, but I have just returned from a trip in Tyrol, Austria, where currently the Arlberg tunnel is closed and traffic is directed over the Arlberg pass (1800m height) which according to google has a maximum gradient of 13%. In both ways, the ascent starts with a straight segment slightly inclined. In both ways, my motorhome could not drive faster than 30-35 km/h (18-21 mph). Acceleration was on the floor, auto gearbox changed to the third gear (out of 8), and this was the max speed. Needless to describe the queue behind me.... after manually forcing the gearbox on the 2nd gear, I was able to drive 5 kmh faster, but the engine was obviously very loud. Unfortunatelly because of the stressful situation, I did not think to check the rpm of the engine... I was just listening to it, and it felt to me as it was over revved.
To cut the long story short, how fast do the funsters drive in mountain areas (straight road, not curves) with similarly heavy motorhomes? In about 3 weeks I'm planning to start driving towards Norway, and I'm pretty sure there will be more inclined roads over there.

 

[ChrisL]

I put the diagnostic tool on and no faults came up !!!!!

Can I ask which diagnostic tool, and do you have the round multi pin interface and if so which OBD adapter? I have a 2004 Mercedes based Hymer and can't get a diagnostic tool to work properly with mine.

 

[fred_jb]

Interesting torque curves on Fiat web site, AT is automatic and MT is manual transmission, the maximum torque for the Automatic map is only spread over 250 revs hence the move to more gear ratios to keep in the sweet spot.

View attachment 932850

Yes, but although the AT max torque is over a narrow range it still stays well over the MT curve for the whole of its most used rev range. I have the 180 auto in a van weighing in at about 3000kg. By making good use of all 9 gear ratios it goes very well while rarely doing more than 2500 rpm. It is also very responsive to a kickdown, allowing quick and safe overtakes of slower vehicles.

 

[Pausim]

The new ones are a lot more noisy than the 2.3l and cut in more even when travelling.

You can hear the fan because the 2.2l engine is so much quieter.

 

[MichaelT]

You can hear the fan because the 2.2l engine is so much quieter.

Yes that's why I wondered if the op was hearing the fan revving thinking it was the engine so didn't push it?

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[Lenny HB]

You can hear the fan because the 2.2l engine is so much quieter.

Flipping fans for everthing when you operate the central locking a fan starts up.

 

[flatpackchicken]

Can I ask which diagnostic tool, and do you have the round multi pin interface and if so which OBD adapter? I have a 2004 Mercedes based Hymer and can't get a diagnostic tool to work properly with mine.

This is the OBD adapter I got for my one

14Pin to16Pin OBD2 Adapter Diagnostic Connector Cable for Mercedes Benz Sprinter | eBay

1x 14pin OBD male to OBD2 (16PIN) Female Adapter Cable. Type: Benz 14 Pin male to 16 Pin OBD2 female. Connector: Benz 14Pins male connector; OBDII 16pins female connector. Plug the 14 pin side into your van and the 16 pin male on to your scanner cable.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Davecrawf]

But if it's under warranty then no choice plus they will have all the diagnostic equipment and access to Fiat for help and any software updates that may be needed.

I agree, that's where the main dealer wins

 

[ChrisL]

This is the OBD adapter I got for my one

14Pin to16Pin OBD2 Adapter Diagnostic Connector Cable for Mercedes Benz Sprinter | eBay

1x 14pin OBD male to OBD2 (16PIN) Female Adapter Cable. Type: Benz 14 Pin male to 16 Pin OBD2 female. Connector: Benz 14Pins male connector; OBDII 16pins female connector. Plug the 14 pin side into your van and the 16 pin male on to your scanner cable.

www.ebay.co.uk

Thanks, I have one of those, unfortunately it doesn't report all the modules in the van only a couple of them, I also have another one made by Autel which reports different modules but not all, from what I can gather from the internet the proper Mercedes multiplexing hardware and software are the only way to access all the modules, unless you know different. It's a bit annoying as ones sold to the American market have standard OBD ports but not European ones.

 

[flatpackchicken]

Thanks, I have one of those, unfortunately it doesn't report all the modules in the van only a couple of them, I also have another one made by Autel which reports different modules but not all, from what I can gather from the internet the proper Mercedes multiplexing hardware and software are the only way to access all the modules, unless you know different. It's a bit annoying as ones sold to the American market have standard OBD ports but not European ones.

No don’t know any different mate !!!

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[cyberyacht]

It should be tha’t only 3.5t, it’s a paperweight

Not since he's filled it up with all those "essential" toys.

 

[WESTY66]

Not since he's filled it up with all those "essential" toys.

Nah, he’s off set all that weight with lithium and a Chinese light weight shower head

 

[optimus-prime]

I personally think maybe he heard the fan cutting in and thought it was the engine so maybe didn't push it but let's see once he's been to the garage.

It wasn’t the fan it was the engine, pedal was on the floor.
I booked it with IVECO trucks for next Tuesday morning. They said they have access to Fiat software and they can also handle warranty cases. Let’s hope for the best. (And they spoke English)

 

[Jonno1103]

My last van was 4.5t with the 2.3, 150hp with Comformatic box that had no problem with mountain roads.
The 2.2 180hp engine is far superior with power delivery should easily be able to cope.

Lenny it depends whether it's auto or manual, I can't remember if the OP mentioned that? Bolted to the MT the new MJIII 180 is pretty lacking in pull, it's 380Nm which is less than Ford's 130. It needs the 9 speed auto to have the 450Nm grunt... and that should tug anything even with a 1500kg tow car on the back.

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny it depends whether it's auto or manual, I can't remember if the OP mentioned that? Bolted to the MT the new MJIII 180 is pretty lacking in pull, it's 380Nm which is less than Ford's 130. It needs the 9 speed auto to have the 450Nm grunt... and that should tug anything even with a 1500kg tow car on the back.

OP's is a 9 speed auto mention ed in 1st post. . The 180 with 9 speed is standard in RHD Carthago's

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[sarumsteve]

Sorry late to this and someone may have already mentioned it............have you not lifted the lid on the compartment that contains the pedals?

 

[fred_jb]

Sorry late to this and someone may have already mentioned it............have you not lifted the lid on the compartment that contains the pedals?

Of course, Fred Flintstone mode!

 

[optimus-prime]

Back from the garage, as some of you suggested, and many of you (including me) expected, there's nothing wrong with the van, because no errors were recorded... Actually, the guys from the service were very friendly and nice. The mechanic's boss did an extra drive test with me before handing back the van, so he would also see it for himself. He was actually surprised about how the van was running given the small engine and high load, but there were no real hills around the dealer's place. So we agreed I would take the van, do some more tests and get back to them if I still believe the van has issues, although their professional opinion is that everything is fine.

And that's exactly what I did. I immediately took the van to the steepest road around my house, which is steep, but not as steep as the 13% one in Austria, and I recorded this video. I will share it with them as well, and post back their reply, but as it's been proven before, the funsters experience may be more valuable.

So, in the video I start accelerating on a relatively flat road, and then keep the pedal to the floor. As the road gets steeper, the speed starts to drop. It drops to 50 kmh (30 mph), but again this is not really a mountain road, it is more of a hill. What are your thoughts on what you see? Do you also agree that this is normal?

 

[ChrisL]

Back from the garage, as some of you suggested, and many of you (including me) expected, there's nothing wrong with the van, because no errors were recorded... Actually, the guys from the service were very friendly and nice. The mechanic's boss did an extra drive test with me before handing back the van, so he would also see it for himself. He was actually surprised about how the van was running given the small engine and high load, but there were no real hills around the dealer's place. So we agreed I would take the van, do some more tests and get back to them if I still believe the van has issues, although their professional opinion is that everything is fine.

And that's exactly what I did. I immediately took the van to the steepest road around my house, which is steep, but not as steep as the 13% one in Austria, and I recorded this video. I will share it with them as well, and post back their reply, but as it's been proven before, the funsters experience may be more valuable.

So, in the video I start accelerating on a relatively flat road, and then keep the pedal to the floor. As the road gets steeper, the speed starts to drop. It drops to 50 kmh (30 mph), but again this is not really a mountain road, it is more of a hill. What are your thoughts on what you see? Do you also agree that this is normal?

It doesn't appear to be changing down a gear to me, do you have cruise control? If so try setting a speed and observe if it changes down to maintain that speed.

 

[MichaelT]

Certainly doesn't look right. Did the garage test drive it.

I would remove video as driving while using a phone which looks like you are doing is illegal here and probably there.

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[Pausim]

I can’t get the video to play. It wants me to sign in or create an account.

 

[Ridgeway]

It changes down from 4th to 3rd towards the end and it was going up that hill very well at first although hard to say without knowing how steep it is.

I’m passing by Zurich next week and happy to give you my opinion as i have the same set up (2.2ltr, 180hp & 5.5t with 9spd) Got to go to AMAG in Winterthur

 

[optimus-prime]

It changes down from 4th to 3rd towards the end and it was going up that hill very well at first although hard to say without knowing how steep it is.

I’m passing by Zurich next week and happy to give you my opinion as i have the same set up (2.2ltr, 180hp & 5.5t with 9spd) Got to go to AMAG in Winterthur

That would be great and highly appreciated. I’ll send you a PM.

 

[Lenny HB]

It was in 4th all the time in the video when the revs went up quite a lot it didn't change up and when slowing down it didn't change down.
I would say it's a gearbox ECU problem.

Although I'm driving a lighter van the slightest change in revs the gears change up & down as required never stays in a single gear that long unless cruising on a motorway even then it's up & down between 8 & 9.

 

[Carpmart]

Have you tried manually selecting gears going up a hill?

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[Flairy]

A very good Fiat profesional dealer with years of knowledge is MW Fahrzeugtechnik near wetzler (shufflegrund) is the village 0049 6445 6120500 speak to Mario he speaks perfect English I’ve been going there over 20 years,highly recommended.

 

[Ridgeway]

It was in 4th all the time in the video when the revs went up quite a lot it didn't change up and when slowing down it didn't change down.
I would say it's a gearbox ECU problem.

Although I'm driving a lighter van the slightest change in revs the gears change up & down as required never stays in a single gear that long unless cruising on a motorway even then it's up & down between 8 & 9.

It did change to 3rd gear towards the end.

 

[optimus-prime]

It was in 4th all the time in the video when the revs went up quite a lot it didn't change up and when slowing down it didn't change down.
I would say it's a gearbox ECU problem.

Although I'm driving a lighter van the slightest change in revs the gears change up & down as required never stays in a single gear that long unless cruising on a motorway even then it's up & down between 8 & 9.

Like Ridgeway said it did change towards the end, and while it was on the 4th, and slowing down, the RPMs were above 2500.
On the steeper and longer road in Austria it shifted faster on the 3rd and stayed there at 30 kmh.
Also, on a flat road it shifts very quickly and often. Kick-down works as well on a flat road…

 

[optimus-prime]

A very good Fiat profesional dealer with years of knowledge is MW Fahrzeugtechnik near wetzler (shufflegrund) is the village 0049 6445 6120500 speak to Mario he speaks perfect English I’ve been going there over 20 years,highly recommended.

Found it, thanks! If I don’t figure it out here in Switzerland, I’ll stop there on my way to Norway.

 

[Flairy]

If you decide to go best to ring and speak to Mario the boss there always very busy ,I tend to make an appointment in advance by phone then e mail details of the problem or service etc .you can stay overnight and have ehcif required

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[DBK]

I was intrigued by how high revving the engine is. My 3.0 litre lump would be chugging along at around 1500rpm going up a hill but these smaller engines spin much faster to generate the same amount of power.

Looking at the video and the power/torque curves shown earlier in the thread I would say the engine was running at the maximum power point. The power to weight ratio is only around 32 bhp/tonne so it isn't going to be too exciting performance wise but I'm not sure it is a gearbox problem. If the engine is running at the revs for maximum power then it can't do any better. Perhaps the problem is the engine isn't generating the claimed 180bhp?