Cambelt & Water Pump change quote from local Fiat garage today.

[cyberyacht]

Who did the work please.

Adams Morey, Portsmouth

 

[Silver-Fox]

The consensus is that if the water pump is driven by the cam belt, and the work involved to replace the water pump is the same as replacing the cam belt, then do it. It may not be listed as a requirement of the cam belt job, but more a "safeguard". There have been cases of water pump failures not a long time after changing a cam belt, then you are back to another hefty bill for repeating the work again. Its peace of mind, up to each individual to make the decision.

And putting another cam belt on as I wouldnt re use one.

Even if it’s only been on a month or two.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Maybe but the only warning the driver will get of bearing failure is a screeching noise just before the engine self destructs!
Leaks you will get a longer period of notice, before the inevitable.

I didn’t get a long period of notice on my Caddy work van.

I noticed a small stream appearing from it and running down the road whilst just parked.

I tasted it to confirm it was anti freeze mix

I left a little trail of water on the way home, fortunately only a mile or so away from the job

 

[Stewart J]

Mines booked in to our local garage on Tuesday for cambelt, service and mot will post the cost. 2017 Fiat 2.3 with 24k on the clock.

 

[maison]

Once out of warranty I wouldn’t go near a FIAT main dealer. (Or any other main dealer).

There are plenty of “corner garages” who still employ people that really know what they are doing rather than module changers, at half the price.

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[MichaelT]

Once out of warranty I wouldn’t go near a FIAT main dealer. (Or any other main dealer).

There are plenty of “corner garages” who still employ people that really know what they are doing rather than module changers, at half the price.

I would say Fiat/VW/Ford trained people would know far more than a back street grease monkey on a modern day vehicle given all the electronic technology that drives everything and are more likely to have the correct tools for the job. I am not saying the prices they charge justify that however on a newer vehicle probably a good investment when coming for resale, on a 20 year old van then probably a different story.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I would say Fiat/VW/Ford trained people would know far more than a back street grease monkey on a modern day vehicle given all the electronic technology that drives everything and are more likely to have the correct tools for the job

I would disagree with you.

Often the main dealer “tech” plugs the vehicle in but maybe can’t diagnose the issue as it can be one of a few things to replace.

Then the scatter gun approach of parts comes to the fore.
Guess who has to pay for all the parts

You do get good mechanics at the main stealers.

But they cost the company more money so guess who they keep

 

[maison]

I would say Fiat/VW/Ford trained people would know far more than a back street grease monkey on a modern day vehicle given all the electronic technology that drives everything and are more likely to have the correct tools for the job. I am not saying the prices they charge justify that however on a newer vehicle probably a good investment when coming for resale, on a 20 year old van then probably a different story.

We are talking about a water pump and cam belt change here are we not? Not much electronic technology there.

There certainly are some jobs that require specialist knowledge but much of it is available to all garages.

It makes sense to ask first.

Your comment of “back street grease monkey” is an insult to time served mechanics who used to exist before “technicians “ who know how to connect a computer and change a component.

 

[TheBig1]

Plus, why does Fiat, not put the renewal of clutch fluid on any of their schedules? Its changing could forewarn of clutch problems before the clutch fails completely?

combined brake and clutch master cylinder?

 

[Spanner]

Only the fluid reservoir is combined, the clutch master cylinder is a separate item and yes it is good practice to change the clutch fluid periodically but probably rarely done.

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[Dutch 68]

There has always been a "factory" set time for all work on vehicles (from at least the early 60's which was my start of knowledge on the subject), in those days it was known as bonus time, which was the difference between the factory hours and how quickly you could get the job done, the bonus time was split between the company and the mechanic, but the mechanic was always responsible for any comeback.
I personally feel that the system then started the downward spiral from what I call a proper mechanic to fitters, we were taught and trained to diagnose and repair most faults and problems, so if a car came in with gearbox problem, remove it strip it out and repair it not remove and replace with another one.
I'm very aware times and values have changed but as you point out not much has changed with the charges made to the customer.
Don't forget modern vehicles are far more reliable and sophisticated than then and require less frequent visits for routine maintenance.

I had many years ago a VW Jetta with 1600 D engine, horrible car, I did a lot of miles and thought I just drive it into the ground and do not spend on it anymore, did over 70.000 k without any servicing, never anything wrong with it, sold it with more then 200.000 k on it………..

 

[L' Hobo]

combined brake and clutch master cylinder?

and?....the fluid does not circulate 99% just keeps going up and down the same bit of feed pipe (unless you have a leak) when I changed the mine on my 2008 second-hand acquisition , the brake fluid was clear because the brakes had been worked on a number of times but the clutch fluid was black, and I mean seriously, black!
This was when I discovered, from my Fiat friend, that its not on any service schedule.

 

[L' Hobo]

I had many years ago a VW Jetta with 1600 D engine, horrible car, I did a lot of miles and thought I just drive it into the ground and do not spend on it anymore, did over 70.000 k without any servicing, never anything wrong with it, sold it with more then 200.000 k on it………..

My 1989 T25 Westy also has the Turbo 1600D engine, goes on and on......

 

[TheBig1]

As a matter of principle, when I change the brake fluid, I tell the mechanic to change the clutch fluid at the same time. If it's black it gets flushed through too

 

[DerryW]

and I cannot see a single thing wrong with it, can you? no tracks, no marks, nothing!

PS. Do you mind saying where it was done?

Hi L' Hobo
The work was done by Eddie Payne Fiat Alfa specialist in Bury St Edmunds. Eddie's view was "at 5 years and 24000 miles the water pump really doesn't need replacing" my view was for less than £300 I would rather it was changed.

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[Carpmart]

The only way to really ascertain if the price is ‘reasonable’ or not is to understand the Fiat workshop schedule hours for the job.

It’s clear that OEM equivalent parts can be bought for a few hundred quid, so understanding the hours will enable a decent assessment of the job cost.

 

[L' Hobo]

Hi L' Hobo
The work was done by Eddie Payne Fiat Alfa specialist in Bury St Edmunds. Eddie's view was "at 5 years and 24000 miles the water pump really doesn't need replacing" my view was for less than £300 I would rather it was changed.

DerryW , Thanks for that, he sound like a good guy, I'm not a hundred miles away and there maybe a time when I need someone like that, take care!

 

[L' Hobo]

As a matter of principle, when I change the brake fluid, I tell the mechanic to change the clutch fluid at the same time. If it's black it gets flushed through too

If it's black, you might need more than that as it's often a sign that the rubber compound is deteriorating somewhere in my experience, that's the reason I changed the clutch, master and slave cylinder.
Getting a pedal again was a pain and had to be reverse bleed!

 

[Jaws]

2011 2.3 l Fiat X 250. Wait for it............ £1,450.00

About a 1/6 that price from my local man.. Around £250
I will pm you the number if you like.. He has looked after several Funsters over the last few years

 

[Wabs]

Who threw a grenade in the room

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[Silver-Fox]

The only way to really ascertain if the price is ‘reasonable’ or not is to understand the Fiat workshop schedule hours for the job.

It’s not the amount of hours set against the job.

It’s the amount of dollars they set against the hour

 

[Carpmart]

It’s not the amount of hours set against the job.

It’s the amount of dollars they set against the hour

Yes but that’s just a rate question, in order to evaluate the value of the job, you need to know the hours. The only theoretical constant.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Yes but that’s just a rate question, in order to evaluate the value of the job, you need to know the hours. The only theoretical constant.

Agree but you said if the price is reasonable.

If the rate per hour isn’t reasonable

 

[eurajohn]

If it's black, you might need more than that as it's often a sign that the rubber compound is deteriorating somewhere in my experience, that's the reason I changed the clutch, master and slave cylinder.
Getting a pedal again was a pain and had to be reverse bleed!

Just to unnecessarily prolong a thread that started about cam belts, what many readers and some contributors on this and other forums don't know or forget, is that all motor vehicles are not the same.
Take the Fiat Ducato a base vehicle that the majority of motorhomes are built upon, they have been around since the early 80's and have seen many changes along the way, as a for instance the post I've quoted to above, I'm sure on the contributors vehicle that was a true and reasonably easy task to carry out, however if referring to a more recent version of the same named van it would have been a very complicated and expensive thing to do.
Reason being on the older vehicles the slave cylinder was easily accessed, whereas the newer ones have what is called a concentric release bearing and slave cylinder which requires the removal of the gearbox to change (bleeding them can be problematic as well).
So what is very correct and true for say a 2005 van will be wrong for say a 2007 one.

Just to quickly revisit the water pump references at belt change, the first signs of a failing seal will be a tell-tale track running down the casing from the shaft, such a weep will invariably develop into a full blown leak which will most likely cause bearing failure (dead engine), now to be able to be warned of this early sign of failure it is necessary to be able to see it, to visually inspect anything other than the pulley on the pump, the whole housing has to be removed, which is not necessary to change the belt.
So for me it makes sense to spend a little more and change the pump at the same time, as the extra labour compared to the whole job is minimal.
Basically peace of mind but as Fiat apparently advise it is not necessary, let's not bother .

 

[peterc10]

This was when I discovered, from my Fiat friend, that its not on any service schedule.

I am afraid your Fiat friend was wrong. The Fiat Service Schedule for my 2015 Ducato based A Class tells me that the brake fluid should be changed every 60,000Km or 24 months, whichever comes first.

As I understand it brake fluid is hygroscopic and tends to absorb water from the atmosphere. That reduces the braking efficiency because water compresses more than brake fluid.

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[Wack]

£100+vat as a minimum hourly rate of which the mechanic may get £15.
Even when I bought my brand new Toyota Hilux pickup in 2004 it never saw a Toyota dealers workshop for anything.

I know a guy with a izusu pickup , it was under warranty so he took it to izusu for a service without asking how much it'd be , just a service , they found nothing wrong with it , £950

 

[vzac]

I would say Fiat/VW/Ford trained people would know far more than a back street grease monkey on a modern day vehicle given all the electronic technology that drives everything and are more likely to have the correct tools for the job. I am not saying the prices they charge justify that however on a newer vehicle probably a good investment when coming for resale, on a 20 year old van then probably a different story.

That's not quite true. I sold tools to these so called grease monkeys and believe me there is not a lot of difference in general between ands and main dealer techs. The apprenticeships scheme by ma8ndealers has just about dried up. They now employ these so called grease monkeys, who have been trained by local colleges, tale them on and then send them on a 1 to 4 week course on how to use there cars. As for diagnostics some use after market devises, some don't. Likewise some independent garages use a thing called pass through, which gives them access to maindealer specific diagnostic software from the aftermarket devices. Then you have the techs who have left maindealers and set up themselves and often specialise in a particular brand.
Yes there are dodgy back street garages, but main dealers with there shiny windows, do not necessarily mean better, many are as dodgy as the worst back street garage.

 

[Bolti]

I am afraid your Fiat friend was wrong. The Fiat Service Schedule for my 2015 Ducato based A Class tells me that the brake fluid should be changed every 60,000Km or 24 months, whichever comes first.

As I understand it brake fluid is hygroscopic and tends to absorb water from the atmosphere. That reduces the braking efficiency because water compresses more than brake fluid.

L' Hobo was referring to clutch fluid.

Keep up at the back

 

[L' Hobo]

I am afraid your Fiat friend was wrong. The Fiat Service Schedule for my 2015 Ducato based A Class tells me that the brake fluid should be changed every 60,000Km or 24 months, whichever comes first.

As I understand it brake fluid is hygroscopic and tends to absorb water from the atmosphere. That reduces the braking efficiency because water compresses more than brake fluid.

Sadly it's you who is wrong, I/we were talking about CLUTCH fluid, not brake!

I have explained why, although they share the same reservoir, it does not get changed.

PS. I would suggest, it's the water content boiling that causes most problems, especially if your going down a long mountain.
(sadly, I can't spell hydroscopic)

I hope the highlights help this time?

 

[Carpmart]

Agree but you said if the price is reasonable.

If the rate per hour isn’t reasonable

Going back to the original poster, it’s impossible to know if it’s good or bad value as there is nothing to directly compare to.

When working out ‘value for money’ of anything one looks for a constant to enable comparisons to be made. The only constant here is the number of hours work. Once you understand that, assessment can be made far easier. Do I want to use a main dealer at £120/hour, is there an independent or local garage I can use at £75/hour, am I happy with the premium for OEM parts, or OEM grade pattern parts will do etc etc

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